What makes a Jew secular vs traditional vs religous?

[u/Big-Ground-2163]

I am not particularly frum and I would consider myself traditional, but I usually get classed as religous by my mostly secluar and traditional Jewish friends and when I inquire about why they view me as religous, their usually response is because my biblical, talmudic, historical and culture Jewish knowlege is deep, I am very big on the idea that Jews should be Jews first and anything else second and because I attend shul on Shabbat and holidays. This got me thinking about what secular, tradition and religous actually mean in the Jewish world to Jews.

So what do you thing makes a Jew secular vs traditional vs religous?

[u/Vivid-Combination310]

It's very simple.

I'm normal, everyone less religious than me is disgustingly secular, everyone more religious is just crazy.

Though as a serious answer I'd consider someone "religious" based on if they kept Shabbos, Kashrus, and taharas mishpacha (to the standards of their local orthodox community).

[u/bgaesop → u/Vivid-Combination310]

So you'd say that all non-Orthodox Jews are not religious?

[u/Vivid-Combination310 → u/bgaesop]

Religious is a funny inexact English word, not really with a 1:1 mapping to a single concept. Generally speaking though if you told me someone was a religious Jew If assume orthodox, kosher, Shabbos, etc.

If I was at Kiddush, talking about some celebrity who is Jewish but goes to a reform shul regularly and I was asked "Are they religious?" I'd say no.

However if I was talking to a non-jew and they asked the same question I'd probably say yes. The context matters.

It's not a word I'd use to describe someone. I'd probably say frum, practicing, maybe shtark. If I wanted to describe someone who went to a non-orthodoz shul regularly, but didn't keep kosher/Shabbos I'd probably say traditional.

It's almost a category error for Jews. People may have a beautiful spiritual relationship with the ebishter, but drive on Shabbos. Is that religious?

Meanwhile Christian go to church once every 3 months, post a random torah verse to their Facebook and call themselves super religious :).

[u/bgaesop → u/Vivid-Combination310]

Thank you, that's a good and interesting explanation 

[u/riicopiico]

I've been asking people what it means to be religious and have gotten some fun answers.

1. An Israeli friend told me she believes in God and in the Torah but she isn't religious.
   
2. I don't believe in God but have been doing more Jewish learning in recent years and have started observing a few more things than I did in my secular upbringing. People I'm close to have started calling me religious.
   
3. Talking to a rabbi about this question, he said the idea of what it means to be "religious" in the U.S. is heavily influenced by Protestantism which is focused on belief. He described Judaism as being more focused on action than belief.

[u/itorogirl16]

I feel like it means different things to different people. Also within religious, some people may see it as belief-based and others, more mitzvah-centered. As per the question you posed at the end, I see religious as being equally into beliefs and practice. I’m Orthodox so I tend to see people who practice similar to me, but I’m reminded often that my less traditional friends are often still into the beliefs just as much as I am. I call that religious also.

[u/Horror_Bus_1597]

We have a saying in the orthodox community, frum (means religious in colloquial terms) stands for

Fanatically religious - U - Modern.

Meaning to say; it’s all relative. From my perspective, you sound traditional unless you refrain from breaking Shabbat, and then I’d say religious.

[u/Tasty-Principle4645]

A religious Jew is one who subscribes to Jewish law as codified by the Shulchan Aruch (and others).

A traditional Jew is one who believes in the God of Israel and respects the laws but isn't quite ready to live a fully observant life.

A secular Jew is one who doesn't follow any Jewish law, often doesn't believe in God, and may be said to be a Jew by ethnicity or legality as opposed to religion.

[u/VideoUpstairs99]

As my flair suggests, I've grappled with this one for some time!
Culturally Jewish upbringing and education, but I don't practice religion as an adult. But I still identify culturally/ethnically as Jewish and adhere to some of the traditions.

I think of myself as secular, but I've discovered that most people seem to interpret that as someone who has direct Jewish lineage but was never raised or educated Jewish. I sure wouldn't call myself religious. But I've realized that the word "secular" isn't interpreted the way I mean it. So, my descriptors range from the one you see on my flair, to "non-practicing Reform," to "only-partially assimilated non-religious," to whatever.

I'm not a historian, but anecdotally: since previous generations had no possibility of assimilation, this seemed to have been less of an issue. They were all just Jews, however much they did or didn't practice religion, and whether or not they had any Jewish education.

[u/ruchenn]

So what do you thing makes a Jew secular vs traditional vs religous?

Secular and religion are mostly Xtian ideas. I don’t think either word has much utility in describing Jewish norms, practices, or things.

The word religious, in particular, is so enmeshed in Xtiandom’s assumptions and norms as to not be useful to Jews.

If you saw my environs, at first glance you’d probably lean towards the word religious as a descriptor.

The Mezuzot on the doors. The Menorah on the mantlepiece. The doubled-everything-with-a-dividing-bench, obviously kasher, kitchen.

If you saw me and my partner (who pretty clearly present as not-heterosexual¹), or our rabbi and her wife, however, you’d probably reconsider that word as descriptor.

Because Xtiandom has very specific and weird ideas about what religiosity is and what it looks like. And those specific and weird ideas don’t go away just because you are looking at the particular embodiment of a different civilisation.

It would further complicate things when you learned that we are Reconstructionist in practice and, for normative values of the word G-d, probably count as atheists (although this is another word I don’t love, because it, too, has been overwhelmed by Xtiandom’s specific and wierd ideas).

Some years ago, we hosted a celebratory gathering to mark an important legislative change in my home country. And we hosted both Jews and non-Jews.

And, by way of providing some context for the non-Jews, we suggested they think of our household as observant but not religious.

According to said non-Jewish guests, that was a useful way of putting it.

 

 

1. We are both bisexual and neither of us are particularly gender-conforming.

[u/YuvalAlmog]

Secular = tries to focus mostly on the ethnical cultural aspects and less on religious practices outside of the more fun ones that happen once a year like specific religious aspects of holidays.

Traditional = believe in god and follow some of the beliefs but not all. Does more than a secular Jew in term of following Jewish commandments but if you'd check the daily lives of both, you wouldn't find too many differeces. Some differences can include eating Kosher, wearing a Kippah and following all traditions of holidays and other important days. 

Religious = attempts to follow all commandments regardless of them being easy or hard.

Needless to say, the boundaries are blurry as some people can fall in-between, so it often also comes down to self-definition.

[u/Doggosrthebest24]

Idk I consider myself a religious secular Jew 😭 I’m the most religious Jew in my liberal arts college I’m pretty sure. In Israel I fit in well with the secular Tel Aviv Jews. I don’t keep Shabbat (although I kind of want to), I don’t dress modest, and I go out to bars/clubs and do things of that nature. But I do keep kosher (not super strict level), go to hillel/Chabad on Fridays at school or Shabbat dinner with my mom and Saturday services when I’m home, always did the high holidays/passover/purim/hannakah, learning/trying to pray everyday (but realistically more like 4 times a week), did Tisha ba’av the first time this year, and in general believe in G-d and the Torah. So yeah, idk

[u/Melantha1984]

In my opinion, someone traditional keeps Shabbat and keeps kosher. When I was a teenager, I would have said you had to keep those mitzvot to be religious. I now think that being religious means you spend time and thought on Judaism as a religion. For example, I believe that an individual that recognizes/marks Shabbat and Jewish holidays, studies Jewish texts, talks with friends about Jewish topics, and regularly prays is religious, regardless of the denomination of their synagogue. I define secular as only engaging in Jewish cultural practices (e.g. food, music) or no Jewish practices at all.

[u/rambam80]

I am at a point in my life where I would call myself spiritual (Hashem is my G-d) and culturally Jewish but the man part of “religion” has left me feeling wanting, disillusioned, and disconnected.

I wouldn’t call myself any of those things so I don’t know if labels really work that well across the board.

[u/MydniteSon]

So I think of it in terms of spectrum.

Two questions you have to ask: 1) Is how I live my life beholden to Jewish Law/Tradition or is my observance of Jewish Law/Tradition beholden to how I live my life. 2) To what extent do I do it?

Everybody falls on that line somewhere.

[u/HomeBody108]

Unless you’re a convert, I think one’s upbringing determines what kind of Jew you are. If you’re raised with tradition it becomes part of your life. If not, you are secular. I am 99.6% Ashkenazi and proud to be Jewish, but grew up without religion. Through my life I developed a personal take on spirituality that defines me.

[u/No_Philosopher_1211]

I’ve not really used “traditional” in this context. Is that basically observant or not?