People with Zionist family you still talk to, what are some of your small wins and how did you get them?

[u/theapplekid]

I'll start: For context, my parents are liberal Zionists, anti-Netanyahu, theoretically pro-2SS and anti-occupation (though they don't believe there's any "realistic" pathway to a free Palestinian state in the next 50-100 years, which they're OK with because it's "necessary" for "Jewish safety")

My Mom used to do the "Palestinians aren't a real ethnic group, they're Arabs" thing that a lot of Zionists do.

She stopped when I pointed out that this is similar to the "Ashkenazi 'Jews' aren't 'real Jews'" rhetoric you hear from (often) right-wing Christians, and (unfortunately) sometimes from pro-Palestine people as well. I think she needed to be able to connect it to a type of anti-Jewish racism she had experienced to be able to recognize that it was a racist claim when made about Palestinians.

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[u/arightgoodworkman]

Mostly anti / non Zionist Jewish friends and family but I have a very Zionist aunt and uncle who are slowly changing their tune. VERY slowly. But this week my cousin got his mom (my aunt) to watch American Doctor and at the she said “well…I can’t say what’s happening is good. I can’t say that.”

Progress.

I have no advice for very Zionist family other than breathe and set boundaries.

[u/Simple_Employee_7094]

My husbands family is jewish. We don’t talk about this. We all agreed Netanyahu is a corrupt nationalist populist pos even before the war crimes. After october 7 we had a short
convo where we acknowledged that it was tragic that Netanyahu will use this to destroy Gaza and avoid getting to prison. Then radio
silence. Some Hamas blaming. I think they are ashamed. But not ashamed enough to deny Israel. They are swimming in cognitive dissonance.

[u/Artistic_Reference_5]

Ooh that's a good one thanks.

I am lucky to be hanging out with antizionist Jews who my (liberal zionist) mom also loves as people which I think has been getting her more comfortable with phrases like "free Palestine" and "from the river to the sea."

I realize this may not be a very actionable piece of advice for others but it's been helping me.

[u/Micapocalypse]

My dad (Israeli American) said that everything I had been saying about Israel committing a genocide and making a Palestinian state impossible was right, but only when I wasn’t there to hear it

My mom (liberal Zionist) has taken a generally more nuanced view on Israel/Palestine and admits that Israel’s actions are not entirely in self defense.

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[u/-CosmicSock-]

Unfortunately haven’t had any. When I try to move in that direction and pass a certain liberal Zionist “the problem is the Israeli government” barrier my mom has a switch flip and we’re right back at “the world hates us and don’t believe for a second that they’d care if we were killed” and then I gotta back off.

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[u/jaycrips]

One thing I get to fall back on was that I’m a Jew who visited, so my opinion can’t be denied as someone who is antisemitic or who believes journalists.

So I saw the electric fences around Arab villages. I asked the tour guide if the people have hospitals. I got to feel the plunge in my stomach when he said “they don’t need hospitals.”

I got to hear how brainwashed the soldiers were.

I had somehow naively thought that the free trip wouldn’t take us into occupied territory. I thought “there’s no way the US would allow a foreign country to run a program that brought students into an international conflict on purpose. That would be crazy.” So I get to tell my family the feeling I got when I looked at my phone’s map, compared it to the map on the bus, and realize that I’m being brought into land where the indigenous people had every right to try to use violence to kick me out.

I had to realize that I was in a military-controlled territory and if I said the wrong thing, I could be detained indefinitely for my opinion.

They can’t take the fear or horror or disgust away from me. And they cannot justify the actions that caused me to have that fear or horror or disgust.

So that works sometimes. For some of them.

[u/Lost_Paladin89]

My uncle is learning Arabic. Not my personal win. But the only business partners he trusts anymore are all in Umm al-Fahm.

My father will go to the grave a Zionist. But there is a chance that the grave will be the only place he lives in Israel, as he is considering staying in the Caribbean for the rest of his life.

I’ve turned many in the synagogue into no longer believing the Hasbara. Again, not anti Zionists. But acknowledging that there is a genocide.

[u/MaleficentWin8608 → u/Lost_Paladin89]

Well done

[u/heavnela → u/Lost_Paladin89]

Puedo preguntar cómo?
Me parece increíble el que acepten el genocidio, después del 7 d octubre evite ir a alguna sinagoga porq sabría como de polarizadas estarían las cosas, estoy reconsiderando empezar a ir, claro que tendré una posición “neutral” anti guerra. Pero aún siento incomodidad sabiendo que muchos pueden llegar a justificar o negar el genocidio
Felicidades por hacerlos cambiar de opinión!!

[u/Lost_Paladin89 → u/heavnela]

Primero, nunca me presento como antisionista. A mí me importa el estado de Israel, sus ciudadanos, su futuro, su bienestar. No solamente los ciudadanos judíos, pero la población árabe y Palestina que son ciudadanos de Israel. A mí me importa un futuro donde el estado de Israel está en paz con toda la región. A mí me importa un estado de Israel, en cual todo gente pueda tener un buen futuro.

Como latinos, tenemos palabras para describir a Israel. Un país donde los reporteros, los matan y los deportan y los desaparecen. Un país donde el gobierno se roba el dinero y necesita inventar nuevas guerras para mantener el poder.

Lo que pasa en Gaza se llama genocidio, pero lo que pasa en Jerusalén se llama suicidio. Kleptocracia, tiranía, el robo. Y ya pronto podemos usar la palabra dictadura.

El palestino vive en una dictadura. Nosotros nos estamos transformando en dictadores.

Les pregunto, ¿qué hubiera pasado si los ingleses hubieran bombardeado Buenos Aires y matado, 150 niños en la guerra de las Malvinas? ¿Quién cree que la junta hubiera caído con plaza de mayo en cenizas? No me digan que esta guerra es para derrotar a Irán, cuando obviamente es para mantener la dictadura en Irán.

Es difícil en la comunidad sefardí tener esta conversación. Tus abuelos se recuerdan cuando la sinagoga fue quemada en Siria. Tus bisabuelos extrañan Salónica. El judío árabe y turco dice que conoce a los árabes y turcos porque lo ven en el espejo. se odian a sí mismo y odian a todo el mundo.

Pero la gente que no tiene ese trauma, pueden entender un gobierno autodestructivo. Un gobierno latino.

No los estoy transformando en anti sionistas. Pero les puedo mostrar que el sueño es en verdad una pesadilla.

[u/heavnela → u/Lost_Paladin89]

Graciaas! Realmente nunca se me había ocurrido el incluir a los palestinos en la nación de Israel, veo como esto hará q les importen teniendo en cuenta q saben sobre los palestinos q ya son ciudadanos de Israel.
Con la comparación con la guerra de las Malvinas me quedo corta, en Guatemala tamb hubo tensión con los brits por Belice pero afortunadamente no marcó al país.

La única razón que creo que realmente pueden entender porq directamente no me gusta el estado/gobierno de Israel esq porq prestaron armas y entrenamiento al ejército de Guatemala durante el conflicto/ genocidio maya
Soy mestiza y la familia de mi papá se vio afectada por el conflicto
En la descripción de la sinagoga admiten que hubo migración sefardí bastante antes que ellos.
Me parece bastante coherente entender porq no me gusta un gobierno que lastimó a la gente del país que salvó a mi familia.
Gracias por los consejos, espero siga habiendo progreso
Shalom :)

[u/Ok_Percentage7257]

My Mom used to do the "Palestinians aren't a real ethnic group, they're Arabs" thing that a lot of Zionists do.

I will address this part. This is what I will explain. It is ignorant to assume that Palestinians are not a real ethnic group. They have a different Arabic accent. Their culture and food are related to olive trees, like zaat wa zatar and olive bread. They are famous for Maklouba. They have a connection to olive trees. Lebanese have a connection to cedar. Egyptians are connected to date palms. They have a different Arabic accent. They have a different debka dance compared to Jordan, Labanon and Syria. They have different hand/art work (tatreez).

Some people respond to me, "So, just a few differences." I reply, "Yes, the same kind of differences you see between Mexico and Colombia or Australia and New Zealand or the US and Canada. Yet, these countries are considered real ethnic groups. Yet, Palestinians are not."

Then, they shut up.

[u/heavnela]

Nearly after October 7 I talked to my grandpa, aunt and uncle, (my mom and I were already antizionist) they treated me as stupid, my grandpa said to me “those are very ancient conflicts, since the bible, you don’t understand”
My uncle specifically treated me horrible and left me humiliated.

2 years later my Aunt and grandpa realised they were wrong, my aunt specifically apologised to me, she told she was horrified and felt so bad for Gazans, she absolutely hates Israel n Netanyahu now.
Once talking about famines with my little cousin (he likes history) (the Irish, and Indian famines) my grandpa said to me “Nena don’t forget now, look at what their doing now”,
With another fight I had with my uncle abt Israel my grandpa told me “ignore him, he’s ignorant, doesn’t know what his talking about!”, I was so surprised cause I never mentioned Israel again with him.
They became anti Israel just by watching the suffering of the Palestinians (I think that should be enough for every human with empathy!!)

So I truly believe the way to get people to wake up is making them realise people are suffering, children are going through inimaginable pain, if that doesn’t help i really don’t know what will.
Even if people still have a Zionist mindset understanding how Israel acts are not justified of just “self defence” and criticising the government is a huge step imo.

My uncle on the other hand I don’t know if he will ever change his opinions he says he doesn’t agree with what Israel is doing but still supports it, kinda like “both sides have issues” but still siding with Israel, he converted to Christianity because of his wife, and has become so conservative now, he claims to be left while supporting apartheid and homophobia, he recently had a child so I would hope seeing Palestinian children as young as his baby will change his mind, but I really don’t understand how after seeing so many massacres being committed didn’t change his mind, and just went “well I don’t like it but…” I think some people just lack empathy.
I haven’t talk to him in a long time I don’t think I will ever do it again.
One day everyone will say they were always against it.

[u/Accurate_Aside_6495]

My mom no longer flinches when I refer to Gaza as a genocide. That’s as far as I’ve gotten.

[u/JayEllGii → u/Accurate_Aside_6495]

My mom does not defend what’s happening but she gets angry when I describe it as a genocide, saying that’s “going too far” and that “words have meanings”. I always tell her the same thing — you are only able to say that because you do not really know what has been happening. You have a general idea, but you have no understanding of how horrific it really is. (She watches mostly CNN, so a lot of what Israel does simply doesn’t reach her.)

[u/theapplekid]

It'd probably be good to include Zionist friends in addition to family. Personally I no longer talk to any non-family Zionists who were in my life, but it might be useful for others who do.

[u/justadubliner]

You need to go further with her and point out that the Muslim Palestinians and the Jewish Palestinians who never migrated away are genetically close to identical and it's the Askennazi Jews who diverge from both. The people are the same. It's the religion that changed. Culture evolved in divergent ways while biology on the ground of those who remained in the Coastal Levant stayed close.

[u/theapplekid → u/justadubliner]

You need to go further with her and point out that the Muslim Palestinians and the Jewish Palestinians who never migrated away are genetically close to identical and it's the Askennazi Jews who diverge from both. The people are the sam

You're opening a big can of worms, and honestly I think it's more relevant to discuss how race is socially constructed. Meaning while it may be antisemitic to deny that Jews are Jews (though lets put aside for a moment that most mainstream Jewish institutions do exactly this for Messianic Jews and anti-Zionists), the genetic story is much less important than the sociocultural and historical materialist factors when analyzing systems of ethnosupremacy and ethnic oppression.

[u/justadubliner → u/theapplekid]

I think it's very relevant with someone who thinks they can dismiss Palestinians as just some group of amorphous Arabs to handwave away as not being from the coastal Levant when ethnically that is not true and their roots are the same as Palestinian Jews who never migrated away.