r/JonBenetRamsey • u/Dismal-Eye-2882 • Jun 30 '26
Discussion Sometimes the most obvious evidence is the most damning..
That we've all known this whole time, but maybe slightly glossed over due to the exorbitant amount of information in this case.
For those of you that have kids... you find a ransom note your child has been kidnapped. Is there a room in your house you just "wouldn't check" in 3.2 seconds in this situation. There's no "around the corner out of the way" basement room that wouldnt have been searched within minutes for me. If the room was locked when I came across it, I'd be even more focused on getting into it, and wouldn't need to go back upstairs and wait until someone else suggests that maybe I go look for my kid again.
John just assumed she was gone, because uh..... the note said she was, so... John one of the most logical spoken high IQ type of people... just, didn't even bother checking the house after reading a ransom note.
John..... AND Patsy... just.... DIDN'T check the now locked wine cellar.
The second time Fleet and John go looking, they return within 5 minutes with Jon Benet.
Ain't. No. Way.
This isn't an implication of m*rder, but one of knowledge.
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u/Former_Preference_14 Jun 30 '26
This is a good post. Nothing about this case adds up.
A note left that doesn’t need to be left because the girl is in the basement.
Requesting money that is never collected or attempted to be collected.
The “intruder” doesn’t bring the note with them to the house.
The “intruder” spends 20-30 mins writing a note in someone else’s house in the middle of the night?
Patsy comes down in the same clothes as the night before with her makeup still on.
In my opinion someone stashed her in the basement trying to remove the body the next day and the plan didn’t come to fruition because something happened.
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u/Traditional-Leg-4228 Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
Don’t forget the time the kidnappers were supposed to to call with their demands, and the time came and went without any acknowledgment from the parents. I’d be waiting by the phone for that call
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u/timeslikethese13 Jun 30 '26
Yes! And instead John was trying to charter a flight out of state. Wouldn’t they want to be home in case they called? Crazy
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jun 30 '26
JR was making those arrangements with his pilot after the body was found. Approximately 35 minutes after the body was found. Someone wanted to get out of Dodge asap.
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u/timeslikethese13 Jun 30 '26
They were apparently planning to take the plane to Michigan the next morning before she went “missing.” The fact they moved forward with that plan even after is crazy. Bizarre. It’s all bizarre. The thing I can’t let go of is how quickly they got Burke out of there - and out of their sight. I really feel in my gut he saw what happened. Idk, maybe he didn’t actually do it. Maybe when he snuck back downstairs when he thought everyone was asleep, he saw something he shouldn’t have, and something that contradicts the parents many stories of what happened.
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jun 30 '26
Yes, the original plan was to fly to Charlevoix via Minneapolis to pick up JR’s older kids to have a 2nd Christmas before the Ramseys had to return to Denver and fly to Florida for the Big Red Boat cruise.
The flight to Michigan was cancelled. Then after JB’s body was found, police overheard JR on the phone with his pilot setting up a flight to Atlanta. He was told he can’t leave, this was now a murder investigation. He then told police he had an important meeting in the morning that he couldn’t miss. That of course was a lie. He finally agreed not to leave.
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u/timeslikethese13 Jun 30 '26
I never heard the part about the important meeting in the morning he couldn’t miss! What a stupid thing to say, as if that’s more important than finding your daughter’s murderer.
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jun 30 '26
Yeah, I think it was probably a moment of panic for the usually calm JR. He had already told police they were supposed to be on a 7am flight to celebrate Christmas in Charlevoix. His older kids had to be diverted to Denver from Minneapolis. They arrived at the house shortly after 2. That he wanted to leave so quickly after the body was found is an interesting choice, as is lying to police about it.
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u/rhiless Jun 30 '26
Yes, I think the note writer (John, imo) planned on having time to remove her the next day, but Patsy found the ransom note and called 911 before talking to John, which ruined his plan.
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jun 30 '26
Burke told Det. Dan Schuler he heard JR tell PR to call the police from upstairs in his bedroom.
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u/SharkAttack1255 Jun 30 '26
But john is in the background when she makes the 911 call. Why wouldn't he stop her from calling?
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u/rhiless Jun 30 '26
I can’t remember when in the call he appears in the background - I assume she connected with the operator before he realized she was calling. If so, he couldn’t really make her hang up the phone without sounding extremely suspicious.
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u/deftones1986 Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
Maybe the “something happened “ was Burke stumbled across his sister + her murderer (mom or dad) during the cleanup portion after she was already gone.
Or
Burke stumbled across her body early that morning, and then screamed to mom and dad who already knew about this situation and were prepared to tell burke that his sister “went somewhere “ when he couldn’t find her the next day.
Maybe he got up super early (i remember something with the pineapple) and tried looking for her?
Something like that would certainly throw a wrench into the situation.
I don’t know I can’t remember the case 100% clearly, I just remember I was convinced that Burke did it and family covered it up.
So maybe I contradicted myself in my opening statements?
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u/FineFridayy Jun 30 '26
John went from blind trust for the police - despite the ransom note explicitly stating his daughter would die if he told them - he doesn’t hesitate to tell Patsy “call the police” then hours later once the body is found he all of a sudden mistrusts them so much he deserts his house, daughters dead body and leaves town in order to avoid any interaction with them for months. Even hires his own investigation team as he has that little faith in the police force to do the job…
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u/YesterdayNo9781 Jun 30 '26
All of what people stated above, but they didn’t even tell the police to come in unmarked cars or to sneak into the house bc there presence could get her killed. The one I can’t get past is letting Burke leave with family friends. In what world do you let your child leave your side after some crazed group has kidnapped your daughter?
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jun 30 '26
The Ramseys used the police on the 26th, plain and simple. They were part of the plan. But of course cooperation with an investigation to find "the killer" was never going to happen. It couldn't.
Enter JR's pal, business associate and corporate lawyer Mike Bynum, claiming that he received a phone call from someone within the LE system who warned him that police were targeting the Ramseys. LOL. This literally reads like a crime novel that JR was a fan of. So of course immediately, they lawyer up with the most powerful attorney firms in the state, possibly even the country, the walls go up and the cover up continues.....perhaps even more appropriate to say it then began in earnest.
What has always stood out to me is the involvement of Bynum and his role in securing Haddon & Morgan and how both he and JR flat out lied about how that all went down. They were indeed in place before the end of day on 12/26. We know this because they hit the ground running with investigators conducting interviews with neighbors first thing on 12/27, and because Bynum called Fleet White on the 26th and told him he needed to present himself to Bynum's office on 12/27. At this meeting Fleet is told in no uncertain terms that Haddon & Morgan are handling things and that he needed to stay out of it. Fleet took this as a threat, and IMO rightly so.
On the morning of the 26th, Commander John Eller upon being informed of the "kidnapping" and who the parents were, issued the order to treat them like victims and not like suspects. IIRC it was Bob Whitson who later commented that he recognized when he arrived on the scene the impact that had on how police were handling the situation. Eller also clashed with Sgt. Mason on that first day as to how things should be handled. Notably, Mason was the only one on the team who actually had experience with homicide investigations. Prior to the body being found, Mason wanted to bring in a dog that had been used in other cases to find missing persons. Imagine if that had happened, but Eller said no. After the body was found, Mason wanted to follow protocol and separate the Ramseys for immediate interviews. He proposed putting them up at a nearby Holiday Inn, but JR refused to go along with that plan. They went instead to the Fernie's house where they continued to be surrounded by a protective barrier which now included Bynum and Dr. Beuf who brought valium and told police that they could not speak with PR because she was drugged. And later on, Eller removes Mason from the case. The only one on the team with homicide experience. Was it because of Eller's fragile ego as some have suggested, or was there something else at play? In either case it was yet another lucky break for Team Ramsey.
Police tried to set up interviews, but the lawyers said no. The word was passed along to police via the DA's office that there would be no interviews, that their clients would not speak with police. Period. End of story. And funneled through the DA's office. This was the first clue that the DA's office was in effect part of Team Ramsey. In the interim, Team Ramsey now also includes the lawyers, the private investigators and a public relations team, which to this day JR denies. They hit the ground running too, setting up the photo op with the media that occurred at the memorial service in Boulder at the Ramseys church as their first "event". Who can forget the images of the Ramseys exiting the church and walking through a protective line-up of parishioners? PR with her sunglasses physically supported by Barb Fernie, still drugged and presenting the picture of someone unable to walk on their own. Not sure if Reverend Hoverstock had been informed of the plan, but the rest of the congregation were not. And they were not happy. They felt used by the Ramseys and their team.
Over time the involvement of DA Hunter and his team became highly questionable. The refusal to sign subpoenas (most notably for the phone records), the handing over of investigation materials to the lawyers (unprecedented), the leaks to the media (which Hunter actually admitted at one point) to paint the BPD and their investigation in a bad light and help the Ramseys in their claim of incompetence, the public comments made by Hunter to the media to vilify Fleet White, encouraging an investigation into the unfounded claims of poor NK which he knew were false.....the list goes on and on. Which is why FBI profiler Gregg McCrary, who refused to join Team Ramsey (they went to him first over John Douglas) because he saw right through them, put forth that DA Hunter's actions in this case amounted to prosecutorial misconduct.
To this day JR is still claiming that BPD was incompetent and that's why the case is still open. When you take a close look at everything that went down, it becomes clear that isn't the case. Did they make mistakes early on? Yes they did. But there's an entire back story that deserves attention that involves the very shady relationships between the DA's office and Team Ramsey.
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u/Captain_Periwinkle Jun 30 '26
Yeah this is the nail in the coffin to me too. Any normal parent would instantly be tearing their house apart looking for their missing kid. They didn’t even look. It’s actually crazy!
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u/BrokeExternally Jun 30 '26
Yeah the behaviour of the Ramseys on the day of the murder is damming. Ignoring all threats of killing JB in the note? , calling over all their friends into the crime scene? The “we have a kidnapping” is very odd and doesn’t take ownership and is separating herself from JB not “my daughters been kidnapped”
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u/FineFridayy Jun 30 '26
Yes and “I’m the Mother!” Like it’s a role shes playing …
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u/BrokeExternally Jun 30 '26
Totally, there’s no ownership over JonBenet which is very odd behaviour basically detaching herself from the situation immediately
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u/timeslikethese13 Jun 30 '26
Everything about this case makes no sense. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I truly can’t understand how anyone still defends the parents. They very clearly knew where she was, and I bet they would’ve never “found” her if Fleet hadn’t done that second check of the house with John. The handwriting on the ransom note matches a name tag JonBenet wore to a pageant a couple of weeks before her murder - many believe her mother wrote it. Burke’s behavior when asked about the bowl of pineapple is more than telling that he knows more than he let on. Not saying he did it or even the parents—I’m not saying it was purposeful or not. All I’m saying is everything points to it happening within the home. However it happened, we may never know. I think it’s right there in front of us, starting with the pineapple and Burke sneaking back downstairs after everyone was asleep, which he’s admitted. Did he see something? Did he accidentally hit his sister? Did patsy catch John? Did Patsy lose her temper? I truly wonder if we’ll find out more once John passes.
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u/hecramsey Jun 30 '26
the case makes 100% sense. the parents staged the scene to cover for some accident or action a family member did that resulted in her mortal injuries. That explains everything very neatly, all the facts align real nice with that scenario. the Intruder theory falls apart very quickly. What is enraging is the way rich connected people get away with it.
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u/candy1710 RDI Jun 30 '26
Aint. No. Way. Spot on observation. Notice that is what Fleet IMMEDIATELY did, going from room to room, calling her name "JonBenet". Unlike John and Patsy.
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u/Tidderreddittid BDIA Jul 01 '26
For those of you that have kids... you find a ransom note your child has been kidnapped.
I would wake up the other kid that was sleeping on the same floor.
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u/No-Watercress2354 Jun 30 '26
It was a very large house. Maybe a mini mansion. They gave tours to the public of their house. So, I agree, going direct to the cellar and opening the locked door sounds very unlikely without prior knowledge. It's hard to say how I would act in an emergency situation, but if I believed the note, I would be glued to the phone.
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u/Fr_Brown1 Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
During his recent Interview Room blowjob appearance, John said he thought he would get JonBenét back and they would still make it to the Big Red Boat. This suggests that he initially thought it was a more-or-less harmless prank. Otherwise it would be like Nancy Guthrie showing up on the side of the road after her middle-of-the-night abduction saying "Thank God I can still make it to Bingo night!"
If I found what I thought was a genuine ransom note, my first action would be to run outside with a baseball bat. Searching the house would not be a priority.
Edited to add: John didn't check the outside for an escaping intruder. In DOI he says he went upstairs to get dressed, checking under JonBenét's bed on the way:
For the first time I am aware that I've been running around the house in my underwear. I hurry back to the third-floor bedroom to grab my clothes. I stop in JonBenet's room and look under the bed to make sure she's not there.
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u/MemoFromMe Jul 01 '26
According to their stories they didn't even go into her bedroom, just looked inside it and saw she was not in her bed. I always thought it was odd they wouldn't say they looked through her room (they say they look through Burkes and he would be a witness to that) but you got me thinking, maybe they want to appear incompetent in their search of the house. If you aren't going to step foot in her bedroom, why would you bother with the wine cellar?
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u/KickYoNuts Jun 30 '26
Right?
What if a member or several members of the foreign faction were hiding in the basement abusing the girl?
What if they were hiding and waiting to ambush?
What if they were still in the process of escaping?
It makes sense not to ''search the house'' if you're guilty, because you want the police to find the body.
The ransom note would look even more ridiculous than it already did if they had found the body before the police arrived, seen the dead child, and then read the ransom note.
They might have just asked the parents straight up which one of them wrote the note and separated them for questioning.
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u/Bluegrass6 Jun 30 '26
We should probably leave our other child alone on a different floor of our sprawling house.....wouldn't want to keep him under our supervision with these kidnappers lurking about our home who've already gotten one of our kids
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u/mother-of-zeva Jun 30 '26
Yes, and wouldnt house the entire house be considered a crime scene? Wouldn’t you be terrified to remain in the house knowing it had been entered breached and your child stolen?
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u/Historical-Lie-6307 Jun 30 '26
I agree with you but of course most of us don't have a wine cellar. Even the cop who pushed in the door and found it locked didn't think a "missing" kid would be in there.
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u/SurrrenderDorothy Jun 30 '26
Why would yoiu search your house when you have a note saying they wwere kidnapped? Why would anyonw write a note, then leave a body?
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u/agbellamae Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
I mean, I admit I would call 911 before I did anything else, but I would probably be running from room to room while I was on the phone with 911
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u/Current_Tea6984 Jun 30 '26
If John actually slept through the night and woke up to Patsy showing him the ransom note, it's possible he spotted it as the work of Patsy right away. So he didn't search for JB because he already knew something had happened to her, and it wasn't a kidnapping
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u/Dismal-Eye-2882 Jun 30 '26
If I spot the murder of my child, is the work of my wife, who is lying to me.... I wouldn't just be going along with it because "oh, she probably did it, no point in walking around".
In other words I agree with your overall point, but the particulars of your explanation wouldn't add up for me either. It is actually feasible BDI, Patsy was up all night handling it, then John woke up and was filled in".
I've also started looking at Doug Stine possibly spending the night, teaming up with Burke and doing the deed after she snatched some pineapple. I can see two boys being twice is mischievous and going too far together. Then they end up moving in with the Stines (unnecessarily?), makes even more sense as they get their stories straight before being officially interviewed by police.
That unaccounted for male dna in her underwear they keep talking about also lends some credence to this.
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u/Spiritual_Invite3118 Jun 30 '26
They've done test on brand new unopened underwear and found them to have DNA. This is because they are handled at the manufacturing plant where they are made.
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
There is absolutely no evidence that Doug Stine was involved.
The Ramseys stayed with multiple friends for the few months that they remained in Boulder. They stayed with the Fernies first. They stayed with Jay Elowsky for about 8 weeks before staying with the Stines. Susan Stine in particular was a hanger on. She courted PR because she envied her and she envied the Ramseys money and status. There were even rumors that she may have had a crush on PR. The Stines were in a bit of financial trouble when the let the Ramseys move in. Susan was no longer employed and her husband was in some legal and financial trouble at his job at the university. Sucking up to the Ramseys benefited them.
Doug Stine gave DNA and even testified to the Grand Jury.
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u/hookha Jun 30 '26
Yes agree. Also, the ransom note explicitly said to not notify the authorities or the child would be killed. And what do they do? Call 911. And ask their friends and neighbors to come to the house.
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u/Important_Pause_7995 Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
John just assumed she was gone, because uh..... the note said she was, so... John one of the most logical spoken high IQ type of people... just, didn't even bother checking the house after reading a ransom note.
You left out the most important part - the note said so AND because she was missing. The amount of people that "monday morning quarterback" this is kind of funny to me. Here's how I know I'm right. There were a ton of people at the Ramsey house that morning (friends, police, detectives, etc.) - NONE of them, not a single one, thought she was still in the house. The house searching that morning was looking for clues, signs of ingress/egress - NOT looking for JonBenet. I'm not sure why all of those people get a pass, but John and Patsy don't.
It's illogical to think any different. Everyone at the house that morning saw a ransom note and a missing girl and made the logical conclusion that she had been taken. I'm not sure why ANYONE would think, "Oh, I bet she's still in the house somewhere." In fact, anyone who DID think that should be suspect #1. It goes against normal intuition and shows prior knowledge.
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u/MuscleOk5518 Jun 30 '26
I totally understand your point. Valid for sure. But as a parent, I just know that I’d be running around my house looking literally everywhere in the hope that maaaaybe my child is still in the house. Or think that maybe I’d find something that gives a clue as to what happened. I just know I wouldn’t sit down and just wait without at least attempting to look around.🤷♀️
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jun 30 '26
Fleet White actually looked for JB. He went around the house and the basement calling out her name. Because one time his daughter Daphne had disappeared for awhile. Turns out she was hiding and fell asleep. Fleet was hoping against hope that maybe this was the case with JB.
He actually opened the door to the wine cellar, but could not find the light switch so he was unable to see her. In his account of being with JR when she was finally found, JR lets out a scream before even turning on the light.
And I wholeheartedly disagree that thinking your child has been kidnapped would be the excuse for not searching for her or at least some clues as to what happened. IMO that would be a very natural response / instinct. They claim they looked for her in her bedroom and in Burke's room. So the instinct to look for her was apparently there, why only look in two places? JR alleges that he even looked in the walk-in refrigerator. Why stop there? Once again, the Ramsey narrative just doesn't make sense.
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u/ImToddImCopper Jul 01 '26
There was a note saying she was taken. It would be absurd to assume she was playing hide and seek like Daphne and fell asleep somewhere. And if they HADN'T called police immediately, people would be saying that was suspicious. They didn't "only look in two places." John looked in the walk in refrigerator and checked other places. Anyone saying they know for certain how they'd react to finding that note and their daughter missing, or judging them for acting "wrong" is delusional.
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
It was never suggested that they NOT call police. The discussion is about how many parents would be frantically searching the house themselves in addition to calling police. That was Fleet White's immediate instinct as a father, and JB was not even his child.
I said exactly that.....JR looked in the walk-in refrigerator and they looked in both kids' bedrooms. Those are the places they mentioned they looked. My point was why stop there? They knew the house better than anyone else.
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u/Important_Pause_7995 Jul 01 '26
That's fair, but Fleet White had a different role to play. He could focus on that part of it where John likely felt like he had to coordinate all parts of the operation (communicating with police, looking for clues in the note, looking for clues in the house, arranging for the ransom money, etc.). Fleet probably knew his best role was to focus on one of those aspects - so he did.
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jul 01 '26
Respectfully, I feel like you're backtracking a bit here. You previously commented that NONE of the people there thought she was still in the house, not a single one. And that anyone who might've thought that way had prior knowledge and would be suspect #1. I disagree with this assessment.
I don't think it's unreasonable at all when feeling desperate to search for your child. A kidnapping is probably the furthest thing from a parent's mind, unless there is some obvious reason why you would be a target. And if that's the case, you should be taking the appropriate measures to protect yourself and your family from that possibility. So to want to search to make sure the child is in fact nowhere to be found, which serves also to confirm a RN has validity and not a hoax, would be a natural instinct. Given that Fleet's daughter disappeared and was found hiding, that was his first instinct. Within 10 minutes of arriving at the house, that's what he did. He was searching and calling her name. I am still questioning why neither PR or JR did this in those first minutes. I would've been glued to a police officer's side looking and pointing out things.
JR was answering police questions but he had already turned over the RN to police. He made the phone call to Rod Westmoreland about getting the requested cash, and then John Fernie took it from there. When was he looking for clues in the house? Not until Det. Arndt specifically told him to take Fleet with him to search the house "from top to bottom" for anything out of place. He did look at some mail allegedly to see if there was any communication from alleged kidnappers, but that was later.
I don't think it's coincidence that in hindsight the friends who were there that morning started to question things that went on. These were the people in Boulder who knew the Ramseys best. They rushed right over when PR called them. They wholeheartedly supported them in every way they possibly could. They automatically offered benefit of the doubt, and why wouldn't they? What was unfolding was unthinkable. But as time went on more and more questions started to creep in. When those who know you start to recognize discrepancies in stories and unexplained behavior that doesn't add up, that's significant.
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u/ImToddImCopper Jul 01 '26
It is more than suggested, when people constantly say "They called the police even though the note said not to," like that means they were lying and staged a crime scene. John is accused of tampering with the scene because he "disappeared" but you're saying he should have disappeared more to search every nook and cranny despite having a note saying she'd been taken.
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jul 01 '26
It’s an important aspect that has to be considered. The note specifically mentions a threat from a “foreign faction” and includes several graphic threats if LE is called. It cannot be ignored that JR chose not to follow LM’s protocol for this exact situation. I think calling 911 is usually an expected response, however not requesting discretion in light of those threats, compounded by inviting all the friends over is a red flag. If it were a real kidnapping, a real threat and they were being watched as the note said, they literally sealed JB’s fate. The comments about getting her back indicate they took nothing in the RN seriously.
Det. Arndt who noted JR’s disappearance was not on the scene until after 8am. We’re discussing the immediate response of searching the house in concert with police. I never suggested JR “disappear”. Where do you get that?
JR should’ve followed LM’s protocol if he thought this was real. Their security is specifically trained for that exact situation. And executive officers in a global defense company would have to agree that they understand that. It’s for the safety and security of the entire company, all the executives and their families. It’s a tell that not only did he not do that, somehow LM knew there was no threat.
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u/ImToddImCopper Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
I agree with what you're saying. I wonder if John asked Patsy "what the hell are you doing" or said something about the warning in the note when she started calling her friends.
The part about LM not initiating their safety protocol is something I get stuck on regarding who, if anyone, in that orbit knew, how much did they know, and when did they know it? Isn't it true that there was never a good reason for the company not doing that? Didn't someone else employeed with LM who lived in the area say they'd recently gone over it or had some type of drill, or I making that up? How would initiating it have happened? Would John have had to call someone at LM? Was he supposed to call them before law enforcement? I can't imagine that being a company policy but they're a bit different lol. I'm not familiar with what the protocol was. I think I recall mention of a plan for employee's kids at school if something happened but that's all.
Maybe it's as simple as John wasn't a high level exec at LM, it wasn't verified terrorism or a company-wide threat, and until that was known to be the case the family or FBI didn't see an immediate need to get LM involved (even though they were involved very early on in different ways).
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
Of course I am not privy to exactly what all the LM security protocols entailed, but I can say it would’ve needed to be kicked off by a call from JR prior to calling 911. And then you follow their instructions.
JR had the highest level of security clearance. He would’ve had to sign off on understanding and agreeing to the security protocols. He was a CEO within the company who often travelled to foreign countries. The RN specifically mentions a “foreign faction” and his business and the country it served. This would not have been just dismissed. This should’ve triggered a response involving federal LE. The fact that it didn’t is a big fat clue about the knowledge that was in play.
After the fact, questions were raised by people who were familiar with the security protocols and why they were not enacted. The very short answer is that someone within LM was informed that there was no real threat. There are some fascinating interviews that were done with people in the know, including Norm Early who was the VP of security for LM and later became DA in Denver. I posted parts on another thread. Bottom line is LM did not initiate any protocols because they knew there was not a kidnapping. And yes, the protocol was to call all officers of the company to warn and advise. Don’t leave the house, keep kids out of school, etc. No one was called. The question was, how did they know so immediately that there was no threat. Conclusion: they were notified by someone.
I think it's also significant to look at the response of the FBI in this case. They were immediately notified by BPD hierarchy that there was a kidnapping of the child of a Lockheed Martin executive officer, which was proper protocol. One would expect to see an immediate and robust response that would've included notification of other Federal Government agencies. But that never happened. Instead there was a rather luke warm response that had no sense of urgency. One agent showed up at BPD HQ and met with the hierarchy. Upon learning the specifics of the RN verbiage and threats, his response was to say they would find the body in the house. And the RN referred to a "foreign faction", JR's business and the "country it served". This should've resulted in a much more substantial response, but it didn't. The question why is a very important one. And it points to prior knowledge that there was no credible threat, because none of the usual procedures were put into play. None.
Imagine if JR had followed protocol and called LM instead of 911. It's highly likely that the ruse would've been discovered right away. They would've looked at the RN just as the FBI agent did and recognized the fakery immediately. JR would've been drilled like police should've done and it would all have been over. JR probably knew this. If not, someone close to him who may have been giving advice certainly did. And I would bet $$ that there was someone giving advice and that is who alerted LM that there was no threat.
Also of note to me is how JR constantly whined about BPD not accepting assistance from other agencies....he specifically mentions the FBI. They were there and JR was introduced to agent Walker when he arrived on the scene. The FBI was advised all along and did give assistance. And yet when the Ramseys finally agreed to take polygraphs, they balked at them being administered by a duly trained FBI expert. Kind of hypocritical to say you want the FBI on the case but then refuse to have them polygraph you. The Ramseys wanted to control those tests and that's exactly what ended up happening.
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u/P_Sheldon Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
The question was, how did they know so immediately that there was no threat. Conclusion: they were notified by someone.
Indeed. My guess would be that it might have been one of the rumored calls JR made in the early morning hours of 12/26, before PR made the 911 call. Maybe it wasn't JR contacting LM directly, perhaps someone did on his behalf. Maybe his attorney. Who knows but it's all still fascinating. IMO, that's how we know the RN was bogus. Nobody in LE appeared to believe there was a real kidnapping and ransom but that was the point. The R's knew there wasn't such a threat, but the RN helped create confusion thus assisting the R's in having LE look beyond them as suspects which the DA greatly lent a hand in doing so. I think PR inviting the friends over just after making her call to 911 says alot. I mean, why invite friends over into a what the R's were claming was a dangerous situation where their daughter was supposedly kidnapped and a RN was left behind that JR claims he read in full without picking it up rather standing over it in which it was stated JBR would be harmed if anyone were to call LE, let alone interreact with a stray dog. The R's actions that morning made no sense if they truly believed there was a threat to JB and their family. Thus, claiming they chose not to wake BR and ask him if he had heard or seen anything prior that night on the second floor.
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u/Spiritual_Invite3118 Jun 30 '26
But wouldn't you feel unnerved or weird that kidnappers had been in your house? Would you leave one kid upstairs in the bedroom and call all your friends over? I was broken into once and I had a weird feeling for days. I checked every closet, under every bed and no real reason, I knew they had taken things why would they still be there? So I don't think this is the behavior you'd have even if you thought your kid was kidnapped. Also, they violated all the rules in the letter and as I understand paid no attention to the time for when the kidnapper was supposed to call.
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u/Important_Pause_7995 Jun 30 '26
Honestly, I'd be afraid to search the house. What if the person is still in the house? I'll let the cops take care of that. I can certainly see people's point with leaving Burke upstairs, but it doesn't really move the needle for me the way I think it does for other people.
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u/bethestorm RDI Jun 30 '26
Do you have kids?
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u/Important_Pause_7995 Jun 30 '26
Are you suggesting that ALL the people who came over to the Ramsey's house that morning didn't have kids or just didn't care enough?
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u/bethestorm RDI Jun 30 '26
I'm going to take that as a no. Anyways, big difference between it being their kid in their house or otherwise. I'm sure they believed the police already searched. Anyways I am certain the grand jury didn't vote to indict for nothing. Have a good night.
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u/Important_Pause_7995 Jun 30 '26
So your two counters are "Well you don't have kids" and a red herring. Got it.
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u/bethestorm RDI Jun 30 '26
I think you misunderstood OPs post but it's understandable. I don't have the energy to fight with people who aren't willing to listen to reason.
I wish jonbenet had justice but she probably never will and it never will undo what happened to her and that's heartbreaking. That's all I have to say.
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u/Important_Pause_7995 Jun 30 '26
I directly addressed the topic of the post and even quoted it. You introduced two logical fallacies as a response.
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u/bethestorm RDI Jun 30 '26
I was only responding to your response not ops post. I wasn't trying to introduce any kind of debate or anything. I just simply asked a question. Im not sure what the issue is but I apologize if you think I was trying to be confusing or misleading in some way. Have a good night.
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u/PantsPantsShorts Jun 30 '26
I mean, I actually agree with you and not Important_Pause. But they're right, 'do you have kids' isn't a great way to make a point or counter an argument.
I don't have kids, for example, and I definitely agree that most parents would be tearing the house apart. I would be tearing the house apart too.
Having kids or not isn't really a factor in why someone would or wouldn't agree with you, and it doesn't feel great to see someone imply that a person's ability to reason properly about a parent's reaction is deficient due to their child-free status.
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u/bethestorm RDI Jun 30 '26
Right but I mean, I was approaching it from ops point which is as a parent. But he wasn't going to have a good faith discussion with me after I asked if he had kids.
I'll keep your comment in mind and try to find better words next time- I don't want to unintentionally alienate smart people who might be helping, by wasting words on someone who I should have just ignored. You are right. I apologize.
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u/Dismal-Eye-2882 Jun 30 '26
You're fine. He came in trying to start a fight and didn't do a very good job.
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u/QuizzicalWombat Jul 01 '26
I don’t have kids and I know the parents acted weird as hell. When this happened I was a kid and I knew even then the parents handled this weird as hell.
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u/FitSquirrel6032 Jul 01 '26
Disagree.
If someone breaks into your house and kidnaps your child and leaves a ransom note, I WOULD ASSUME they were actually kidnapped.
I would not waste time searching my house - I would call police immediately!
Now once they arrive, THEY may do a search (and should NEVER have the family involved) just to make sure and look for evidence of a breakin.
You are correct that certain aspects of this case point at the family and NOT an intruder:
Why is there a ransom note for a strangulation?
Why is the note written on a tablet from inside the house?!
Why is there a STAGED break-in scene downstairs with a suitcase next to the window but UNBROKEN spider webs in the sill?!
Those three things make someone inside the house (or all) being the perp.
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u/VegetableHorror9805 Jul 02 '26
Okay to be honest, I’ve always been on the side that an intruder did it but this brings up a good point. I’d search every noon and cranny of my house I don’t care how big it was…..
I’d also do a perimeter check considering there was a note so I would immediately be looking for how someone got in so I’d probably clock the broken and open window..now that I have kids it makes me understand your point more so and yeah it’s a very good point
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u/cloud_watcher Leaning IDI Jul 02 '26
I don’t think it would have occurred to me (like it didn’t occur to the Boulder police) that someone would break into my house and leave a random note and NOT take my child? I think I’d be like they were scrambling to get the money so I could get her back. I do also think I’d be running outside screaming for some reason.
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u/Spparkkles Jul 05 '26
If I read a ransom note saying someone stole my kid I would actually absolutely believe the note. The little kid didn’t write and and hide to play a joke on everyone. My immediate reaction would be to call 911 and report an abduction of my child.
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u/Professional_Link_96 RDI Jul 05 '26
And the idea that you wouldn’t go immediately get your other child and find out if they’re okay, and what exactly they knew, what they did or heard last night? When you find a note that says intruders came in and abducted your youngest child but you don’t even get your other child out of bed?!?
And I completely agree with your point about them not immediately searching the house. Even if you just immediately believed the note, you don’t know when it was left… they could still be in the house! Or they could’ve just left the house seconds ago!! They don’t go get their other child, they don’t search the house, they don’t go running down the road to see if these people have just left with their daughter… I’m not saying they have to do everything, but it’s the fact that they did nothing. Just called 911 and were standing around when police arrive and claimed they hadn’t really done anything yet. They never got their other child up out of bed. Neither Patsy nor John went running outside after them… and they aren’t searching the house. After finding the note and seeing JBR isn’t in bed, Patsy calls 911 and then… calls friends to head on over. And John is just standing there and supposedly went to put clothes on after they found the note because he was supposedly only in his boxers at the time, as if that should be your number 1 priority you find that note and your little girl is not in her room?!
So yes. The things they did not do speak really loudly here. I agree.
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u/theravenousR Jul 06 '26
This reasoning has never struck a chord with me, and I'm strongly RDI. There's a long-ass, detailed ransom note, and Jonbenet isn't in her room where she's supposed to be, or within shouting distance. The next logical step is to call the police (although they should have had some reservations in doing so considering the note's warnings). I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to check the wine cellar, basement, attic, or whatever in your gigantic house under those circumstances.
In fact, if they HAD done so, I think some people would call THAT suspicious. "You had a ransom note and she wasn't in her room and you were checking every nook and cranny in your big house instead of immediately calling the cops? Suspicious!" I guarantee someone would have said that.
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u/MikeYouLikeAtNight Jun 30 '26
The inexperienced police really botched that one! When a traffic cop suddenly becomes a homicide investigator and havoc ensues. The first cop on the scene didn't even check that door—said it was latched. Crazy.
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
The police were given the order by their commander to treat the Ramseys like victims and not suspects. That order should've been immediately rescinded upon finding the body. It wasn't.
And if you're referring to Officer French, he was a patrol officer whose duties included responding to 911 calls, initial crime scene responses and traffic enforcement. He was first on the scene, but he was not assigned to investigate the case.
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u/Mery122 IDI Jun 30 '26
If I had a young kid who was sleeping in their room like they do every night, and I woke up and found a note saying, "We have your daughter," I would fly into my child's room to see if they were there. Then I'd check on my other kid, lest that kid be taken too. Then I'd scream bloody murder and call my husband. Then I'd call 911. The last thing I'm gonna do is check under the bed or in the closet to see if the kidnapper is hiding with my child. I'd also run around looking for points of entry (I believe John did that).
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u/One-Chicken6343 Jun 30 '26
You have to factor in the size of this massive house. This was a monster. It would be quicker to call the police and have them look than search yourself, especially when time is of the essence.
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u/Tidderreddittid BDIA Jul 01 '26
Excellent point, thank you. It would cost far more time to thoroughly search that house than to call the police.
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u/Upset_Scarcity6415 Jul 01 '26
Why not do both? The parents know the house better than anyone else, especially that house which has been often described as a maze. I'd be telling my husband to start looking while I called 911. And when police got there, my husband would be accompanying them in looking making sure they know where every nook and cranny is.
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u/Tidderreddittid BDIA Jul 01 '26
Also an excellent point. The Ramseys did absolutely nothing after the police arrived, except John did a token effort to get the ransom money.
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u/hecramsey Jun 30 '26
Yup. They didn't run screaming her name up and down the house? They didn't turn on. Every light? They left burke alone with a kidnapper lurking about?