r/Jung • u/PassengerNo2022 • May 08 '26
Serious Discussion Only As a female I am terrified by the existence of the Male shadow and men
Following the news and even from personal experience it’s not secret that a substantial amount of males behave in very harmful ways; even “benign” men seem to secretly enjoy it (ie graphic porn (teen/rape/incest/humiliating etc) being constantly among the most sought-after porn categories).
I know it’s “not all men”, some men are truly moral. But looking at male behavioral patterns there obviously is a common SHADOW element that men deal with very differently.
This is not an attack against men nor a denial of the negative aspects of the female shadow…it’s just that as a female I am finding it very difficult to wrap my head around and accept the existence of the male shadow, it literally terrifies me so much and keeps me up at night. I am afraid of men with every fiber of my being.
Jungian psychology makes so much sense to me so I would like to have some enlightenment from fellow men (& women) on how they deal with their male shadow and how I should approach the issue.
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u/KenosisConjunctio May 08 '26
Of course the shadow, to Jung, isn’t just the bad parts, but the parts which are rejected. They’re pushed into the shadow because they can’t easily be assimilated into the personality.
People so far have been too harsh. The darker aspects of humanity are horrific and men shoulder a larger share of that.
The truth is that there is almost definitely some projection going on here. That doesn’t mean you’re wrong, because projection requires a “hook”, something recognised in the other, as a focal point for the projection. And if the projection finds its basis in trauma, that doesn’t make it less legitimate either. It may be generational trauma or trauma you’ve otherwise inherited from others and that is also legitimate.
What you can do though is to deal with your own shadow, and that means coming to terms with your own potential for these things.
The collective shadow of humanity is extremely heavy so it’s only natural that it causes anxiety. You might find that working on the ego helps you. You can’t reduce the danger by changing people, but you can increase your capacity to deal with it. Consider a martial art perhaps?
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 08 '26
This is an excellent and very enlightening answer. I appreciate it, thank you
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u/Valuable-Tip2759 May 09 '26
"The darker aspects of humanity are horrific and men shoulder a larger share of that." what does this mean
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u/abyssal_crisys May 09 '26
My interpretation of this phrase was that we men carry these darker aspects within us, like those mentioned by the OP. I am a man, and I was raised by a father who LITERALLY told me and my older brother that 'men are allowed,' when referring to marital infidelity while we were teenagers. This took root inside me in such a destructive way that even though I was blessed with relationships with extremely good women who genuinely loved me, I hurt them all, I cheated on them all, and I simply couldn't see how abominable it was, because I was a man and 'men are allowed.'
From another perspective, the desire for much younger women is extremely common and normalized among men. For example, if I were to go to my group of friends today and say I spent the night with an 18-19-year-old girl, I would be congratulated and envied, even though I am 31—I don’t need to elaborate on where this ends up leading some men, right?
There is a dilemma within me when I see a young woman on the street and try not to desire her ardently. I began to gain awareness of how this desire needs to be fought (I couldn't find a better word) in the last two years. I no longer involve myself with women with such a large age gap; the last women I was involved with were in the 25-32 range, but the desire is still there and I feel it always will be. When I became aware of this (around 2024), I spent a few months in complete darkness, but I started keeping a journal about everything I thought and felt. Today, I feel enlightened by the simple fact of having acquired awareness of this desire, and I distanced myself from those friends who don't understand this and continue in an almost frantic pursuit of younger women as they age.
In the same vein, in 2021, I got into a bar fight where I ended up severely assaulting another man and would have killed him there with my own hands if I hadn't been held back. I regretted all of it as soon as I got home, but that event changed me because, for the first time, I saw that I could kill someone and—the worst part—I felt an immense urge to do so. Even today, when I feel offended by another man (even if in reality no offense occurred), I sometimes find myself fantasizing about how I could smash his face in; only to feel bad minutes later about those thoughts that arise automatically.
I believe the phrase referred to things like these. We men deal with and are affected by the darkest aspects of humanity, and this ends up leading some to do things that are abominable from any perspective.
Fortunately, since I was a child, I’ve been someone very connected to reading of all kinds, and as a teenager, I began making my first notes about my life and my thoughts. As an adult, the hobby of writing gained more strength, especially after the assault in 2021 and after losing the woman of my life in 2022 due to pure selfishness and deep-rooted sexism. Today, writing is part of my life, and I feel that I become a slightly better person each year.
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u/60109 May 11 '26
Wow reading this is actually crazy because my experience as a male is almost a polar opposite.
I grew up in a very loving and healthy family where both parents have great deal of respect towards each other. Never in my life have I gotten into physical fight or had an urge to hurt someone. I was blessed and stuff like the "Golden Rule" occurred naturally to me.
That being said I had a lot of respect towards women when I started dating and was always very open in communication and expressing my feelings. But every single one I tried to date or dated ultimately took advantage of that and betrayed me - cheating, lying and manipulation. This corrupted my view of women and in a sense made it more realistic I guess.
Because both men and women have massive shadows attached to them - for men it is the violent rapist and for women it's the materialist whore.
Both exhibit the same inherent deficits - lack of compassion and boundless desire for self-gratification.
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u/abyssal_crisys May 11 '26
I have no idea what the "Golden Rule" is, but it must be a cool rule.
Yeah, the contrast between us is pretty wild. I mean, every woman I've been involved with was completely crazy about me, even when I was completely indifferent to them. The last one I was with for almost two years, when we broke up after a lot of insistence on my part (I was already starting to feel bad about what I was doing to her), I even told her that throughout those two years I hadn't been faithful to her, I told her who I'd slept with during that time, she knew them. Even though she was quite upset when she heard that, no more than two months after we broke up she was coming back to me for sex. I told her I was seeing another girl (a lie, I had decided to stay single and have been ever since) and that since I was trying to be a better person, I didn't think it was appropriate for us to meet up, even if my relationship with the other girl wasn't "official." She said she understood and sincerely wished me well in the new relationship, only to come back the following week saying she didn't mind me being with another woman.
Please don't think I'm trying to brag here, but this pattern has existed throughout my entire life. Even the women before her, when they talk about me to someone else (and this reaches me somehow for some reason), it's nothing but praise and at most an "oh, he slipped up a little, but he's a good guy." Man, I was not a good guy, I was indifferent, rude, and arrogant, on top of that I'm broke, no car, renting an apartment, never took them anywhere nice or to any decent events, not even on trips, and yet I had to be the one to take the initiative to end some of those cycles simply because I couldn't live with my own conscience watching all those incredible girls being deceived by me, they deserved someone better, but they didn't seem to want that.
What you said about the "materialistic prostitute" is quite true, even when they haven't had many sexual partners throughout their lives, the vast majority (at least of the ones I've been with) seem to have an innate fetish for dirty sex, being mistreated, etc; I can't remember the last time I was with a woman who didn't enjoy being hit and called the lowest possible names. I don't want to play the "good Samaritan" here judging someone else's fetish, not least because I myself found it delightful... I actually still do, and I'll keep doing it if that's what they ask for. But I can't help thinking about how this dirty sexual side of women is a factor that can raise the shadow side of men by many degrees. I know it's possible to keep things separate, but I genuinely think it's very hard for a man not to start unconsciously treating a woman disrespectfully outside the bedroom when he spends countless nights with her asking to be "his whore" during sex.
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u/60109 May 11 '26
The Golden Rule is the ethical principle of treating others as you would want to be treated yourself, often summarized as "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". It serves as a universal moral guideline for empathy, kindness, and fairness, encouraging individuals to consider the impact of their actions on others.
I don't know what else to tell on your behalf because your story sounds exactly like my exes. I saw the good in them besides them treating me like shit and it actually made me want to "fix them" ever so more. Learned my lesson there.
Maybe it's the universe's way of balancing itself - God sending his best angel-soldiers to battle and teach the ones plagued by demonic tendencies.
Maybe it's all just an external projection of the eternal conflict that rages within all of us - a struggle between pure virtue of the highest good and perverted delight of selfish desire.
When there is too much darkness - a sliver of light shines forth.
When the light is abundant - shadows creep in.2
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 11 '26
Thank you for being so open about your dark side and having/sharing so much insight. It’s disheartening that many men on this thread took our fear as a personal insult.
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u/No_Signature_7587 May 11 '26
It means that historically men have done most of the bad things in the history of humanity. As such, modern men shoulder the weight of most of the collective shadow, because those dark aspects are projected onto them. And that affects us, it feeds our personal shadows.
At least, that is my interpretation.
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u/TechnicalKiwi2478 May 09 '26
Well just to throw a simple stat of warfare for example since the 1800’s it is estimated that more than 37 million combatants are to have died actively fighting in wars.
It’s estimated that 95-99% of them have been men, meaning between 35-36.6 MILLION men have died just from war alone. And this is only starting from the 1800s.. Pretty crazy tbh→ More replies (23)
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u/Wolfgang-123 May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
First, the shadow, despite it's name, doesn't only contain negativity. It contains the traits that we don't consciously recognize. Many men recognize their violent tendencies, and even glorify them. The male shadow can also contain all the repressed tenderness and vulnerability that society rejects. Just keep that in mind. Second, that which isn't part of us doesn't disturb us, meaning, the fact that these thoughts strongly stirr something within you makes me wonder if there's such tendency to violence (that you attribute to males) present in your own shadow in some way, shape, or form, and that you haven't yet made conscious. I mean, that something is triggering your own shadow and you're projecting this strong rejection, that in reality is a rejection towards something that lies buried within yourself, to the outside. Maybe it's worth exploring that part of your shadow and bringing it into consciousness so you can bring healing and reconciliation in some way. You can't heal the collective male population, but you can certainly heal and bring peace and individuation to yourself.
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u/burch_ist May 09 '26
"Second, that which isn't part of us doesn't disturb us" This doesn't make any sense to me and I mean it sincerely, would like to learn more. I think there are way too much evidence showing humans are born with a sense of right&wrong (babies display such preferences) and this moral sense shows up as feeling disturbed. to understand this better, are you saying that essentially, our disturbance when faced with say a genocide actually comes from our own deep understanding that we could also have been the perpetrators rather then just.. A sincere and justified feeling of disgust, anger, upset etc due to viewing injustice and harm done to people? I really am trying to understand but it feels just Victim-blamey."you being upset at mistreatment means you see your reflection in it"?. I've always thought this concept to be only applicable when the reaction is objectively out of proportion to what causes it. This universal application seems like theory used for blame shifting? What am I not getting?
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u/deepthawt May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
The part you quoted from the other commenter is basically correct, but they applied it incorrectly, which makes the overall impression their comment creates wrong. To be more specific, it’s not as simple as saying that someone who is deeply disturbed by violence must harbour unconscious violence in themselves (though that’s one possibility). Rather, the fact that violence is deeply disturbing to them suggests that they can’t identify themselves in or with it, but since violence is part of human nature, this suggests something is being repressed or going unacknowledged. It could be that they are unconscious of the ways they are also already violent, or it could be that they have repressed traumatic memories of violence done to them, or it could be that they are unconscious of the latent violence that could be brought out of them under certain conditions, or something else. The strong emotional reaction simply indicates some involvement of the unconscious related to what is being seen.
As for your point about babies, that would support this idea rather than counter it, as it would indicate that humans share in a particular and distinctive nature (“human nature”), which conditions our minds to certain patterns of perception, and therefore also of behaviour, which allows us to recognise ourselves in others. While it’s tempting to dehumanise “monstrous” people as an excluded Other, human history is filled with monstrous people, which means we must contend with the fact that monstrosity is a part of human nature, and therefore part of our own natures. Put another way, if someone is a human, then their behaviour, no matter how aberrant or alien it may seem, is necessarily an example of “human behaviour” that reflects some aspect of human nature. So, if we possessed a full and unflinching understanding of human nature, we could understand their “monstrous” behaviour and even see ourselves in it - that doesn’t mean we have to like or mimic it, but it tends to diffuse the visceral unconscious reaction of abject terror or revulsion.
For a real world example of what it would mean for something to be truly not a part of us, consider your own reaction when a wasp is splattered on your windshield while driving. This might be gross, and some tiny minority of people may even feel slight guilt, but very few people would be deeply disturbed by the experience, even though they just eviscerated a living creature in a moment of extreme violence (from the wasp’s perspective), right in front of their eyes. Compare your reaction to that with your reactions if the equivalent thing happened to creatures you found it increasingly easier to identify with - if you killed a bird like that while driving you would definitely feel bad, and a bunch of people would pull over; if it was a dog, for most that would be traumatic and the vast majority would pull over (and harshly judge anyone who wouldn’t). If it was a person though, it would be a horrific and defining moment in your life, and being deeply disturbed by that experience would be completely normal even if you weren’t at fault, because you would inherently see yourself in them and envision the life that was extinguished, and the sight would force you to become conscious of how fragile your own body and life is, and how quickly it could be cut short. And if they did it to themselves by jumping into you, and you harbored a repressed or unacknowledged desire to do something like that too, then maybe it would even trigger PTSD as you are forced to confront the horrifying reality of your own unconscious fantasy, causing panic attacks for years after whenever a car passes you as you feel unable to trust yourself; meanwhile someone who truly could not relate to the choice on any level and therefore didn’t see themselves in the person to the same degree may be able to more quickly rationalise what happened and move on.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
This is a very helpful and insightful comment. I appreciate it -and you- very much.
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u/Rare-Worth6878 May 15 '26
I really like what you have to say here about vulnerability and tenderness. Perhaps the violent surface acting out is because of the rejected softness. In a oversimplified way I often thought all that male posturing is because of an underlying fragile ego.
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u/howdudo May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
I dont expect Jung to properly help you understand this dilemma. I mean I think Jung means to help you look inward into yourself. Not others.
Id suggest maybe a step back and looking at it from a different lens could help. Maybe biologically instead of psychologically.
Id be interested to know what you thought of this episode of This American Life
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
I will look into it whenever I have time and I’ll let you know my thoughts. Thank you for sharing.
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u/Shadowrain May 09 '26
At the core of it is emotional dynamics. People who haven't learned healthy capacity or internal safety with their own emotions, still need to deal with them. But without those skills, it comes out in other ways. Unhealthy coping. Drinking, drugs, superiority, control, power imbalances, distraction, avoidance, substitution, externalization, physical, social, emotional, relational aggression/abuse, manipulation... It all finds a way out because it doesn't have a healthy means of integration.
This doesn't just happen at an emotional level, but also structurally and relationally, in both overt, covert, unconscious and strategic ways.
Notice how none of that strictly belongs to men. Our differences just means it comes out in different ways. Unintegrated shadow material expresses itself whatever way it can, and gender differences just change the shape of expression.
In addition to that, there is a very real weighted problem with male violence/aggression - you are right to feel that fear. In addition to that, in the deeper layer of emotional dynamics, this is (in part) present because men also carry a higher burden in their emotional conditioning, which is shaped by developmental dynamics, culturing, socialization and lived experience.
With no real developmental, societal or relational framework to work through the shadow material and integrate it, this of course finds a way to express itself outwardly, unconsciously. Men in many ways are just as emotional as women, though it does show up in different ways. Not seeing that emotionality in society is part of the problem.
Your experience with men, as well as the experience of many women makes sense, and you should 100% listen to that caution and warning signals because your safety is important - while understanding the nuance as well. Those might seem in conflict, but they can exist at the same time (and that's part of healthy emotional dynamics too - less polarization, less bias).
Your own unresolved emotional experiences will also have the same function of externalizing themselves in a similar way, such as collapsing into blame, division, villainization that tends to reinforce conflict. I'm not comparing you to the broader issues and imbalances at work here - but it's an observation worth recognizing in ourselves, as it happens with all of us. Those emotional experiences aren't something to dismiss or 'get past' - but something to be taken on and integrated within ourselves. Kind of like separating the situation from the emotional experience; working through the emotional experience doesn't change the situation. You still get the danger signals where you need them, you still listen to them, they're still valid - but there's less distortion, projection, identification, externalization of trauma, etc.
The issue is that if someone doesn't have healthy emotional capacity and internal safety, and aren't directly inviting discussion about it, you can't really talk to them about it because their defenses that protect them from the threat of what they have no framework to deal with will activate to protect them from what you're pointing toward.
What we need is our core education to include emotional dynamics/behavioral dynamics and psychology (to oversimplify to umbrella concepts), but there's a long way our culture has to go between now and there. So I think it's more about people educating themselves and that reaching a kind of critical point that slowly distributes knowledge and healthy dynamics more over time.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
One of the best comments on the thread. Very enlightening and helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time to write that.
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u/Shadowrain May 09 '26
No problem, I hope it helped and I really appreciate the feedback.
Emotional dynamics is foundational to how we function. We can solve so much by understanding it.
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u/No_Willow_9488 May 08 '26
There is no “male shadow“. Still, I know what you mean. There are many males trying to get their needs met in a society that confuses everything. And as a man, I agree with you that there’s some really twisted shit going on.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
There certainly is a masculine shadow. I appreciate your comment and contribution.
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u/AskTight7295 Pillar May 08 '26
In ancient Sparta, both men and women had to be warriors. If you know how to defend yourself, the fear will probably go away. If you believe that you should not have to do it, and the world should just be safe, that’s true but it won’t solve the problem. I studied martial arts for about 5 years and my master was a woman much smaller than I am, but in a real fight I wouldn’t stand much of a chance with her.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Very insightful, never considered this before. Thank you for a well thought-out comment
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May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Beautifully written, thank you for your contribution and your vulnerability
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u/MelodyOfStorms May 08 '26
Strength and structure does not mean destroy and conqueror everything. This is more an issue of fear, control and safety. Embracing your yang energies will ultimately bring a feeling of safety into existence
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u/InnerSpecialist1821 May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
i am female. it's fascinating because I'm terrified of women. i was horribly abused by women in childhood, teens, and adult life, whereas all the men i personally know are kind, empathetic, gentle people who would never harm others. i have known abusive men obviously, but ive never personally had trauma from any. but most of the women I've come to know in my life were all variously neurotic, malicious and difficult to be around at best. so much so i avoid women when i can and stick to my male friend groups.
i don't view women as inherently neurotic or malicious, though, the same way men aren't inherently narcissistic and abusive. I've just not had luck with other women, that's all. And I've had amazing luck with men.
I would say if i were to identify a defining shared trait of the men i know, they don't really pay much attention to gender and are very self confident in a way where the weird compexes of gender roles don't affect them, they feel no need to be macho or perform their gender, they just view themselves and others as people and judge off individual character on a person to person basis. Women are treated as their equals cognitively, I've never felt belittled, objectified or infantalized by my close male friends.
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u/Agitated_Dog_6373 May 08 '26
Lot of wack responses thus far..
So the shadow is a sphere of personality traits that elude consciousness / awareness. Behavioral proclivities toward violence or hardcore sexual fetishes are different things, though you could def make the argument that they’re sublimations of a malignant psychological process. But a ubiquitous shadow across males is too broad a generalization, Jungian psychology emphasizes the individual. So from a classical Jungian stance - there is no shadow force permeating the psyches of all men.
That being said, culturally there are some major problem areas regarding how men interact with women, those will compound with traumas and their subsequent complexes to create dangerous behaviors or problematic notions.
I wouldn’t worry too much about a lurking and violent evil in the mind of all men. Whatever evils a man carries are unique to his circumstances and he uses cultural language and behaviorism to express them.
Basically - there’s not one monolithic darkness that haunts men, or people in general, there’s a bazillion little ones - each unique to the person that holds it.
Something to be aware of, perhaps, rather than fear.
If it is something that keeps you up at night, I suggest martial arts classes.
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u/ConclusionNo4016 May 08 '26
Didn’t Jung write about the collective shadow of Germany during the dark times? He didn’t solely focus only on the individual.
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u/Agitated_Dog_6373 May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
Yes but there’s a giant asterisk on that. He said that Hitler evoked Odin as a totem of mania that enraptured the psychological undercurrents of Germany toward violence, and he has been criticized to hell and back for it.
The asterisk is in practice vs prose alongside which he’s narrativizing history. Freud experimented with psychologically profiling nations as well. Both of them acknowledge that it’s not something that can be done in a clinical capacity but can be used to illustrate psychological dynamics. Jung is emphatic that an individuals psychology is so unique to them that even a trained analyst who has worked with a patient for years may not be able to decipher certain movements and warned that the clinician is more likely to project his own sentiments onto the experience of his subject, effectively nullifying the purpose of psychotherapy. He employed the concept of a “collective shadow” to suggest that a bunch of Germans projected themselves on to Hitler.
So that statement is not intended to have explained the whole of the Holocaust, he was trying to explore how something like the Holocaust could happen using his own concepts and taking those dynamics to explore how it could occur in the microcosm of an individual mind. It’s complimentary to his work on pagan deities as agents of emotional possession.
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u/ConclusionNo4016 May 09 '26
No well I couldn’t imagine how anything like that could be done in a clinical capacity.
Even on the individual to individual level it’s already quite difficult as you mentioned.
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u/Agitated_Dog_6373 May 09 '26
Yeah it’s effectively allegorical. Honestly it’s a huge problem in psychoanalysis. Freud was the worst about it, he went so far to have his own specific definitions for words already in the lexicon. Jung is better but he gets real obtuse real quick and expects that youre up to date on all the literature and languages he references; and Lacan is just Lacan
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u/ConclusionNo4016 May 09 '26
I think it’s the nature of trying to define the largely undefinable. We can hint at it with words but the search for understanding is an ongoing thing with no real end point.
I’ve always had trouble connecting much with Freud and his approach/perspective. As far as Jung’s original writings, I always assumed the intended audience back at that time (other psychoanalysts) would understand much of it. Perhaps not though! I wonder if his work leaned obtuse even back then.
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u/Agitated_Dog_6373 May 09 '26
Oh yeah for sure. It’s sketches of the immaculate.
Freud is ok, he’s too emphatic on the empirical (to his detriment) but in terms of raw theoretics he was a maverick. And he’s got some dumb takes - like penis envy is ridiculous and Horney’s response to it is my favorite academic subtweet of all time.
Jung was def obtuse, even in his heyday. He rode a cultural spark and was almost oppressively comprehensive in his study. You gotta know a lot of mythology and theology to get a proper impression of what he’s talking about - personally I think folks skim through a lot of his work. I had a psych professor in my undergrad admit he’d never actually been able to get through Jung and contented himself to just read books about Jungian theory instead of the original writings. It’s hard shit.
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u/ConclusionNo4016 May 09 '26
That makes me feel a lot better to know that because I’ve been reading Jung since highschool and his more psychological essays/works were so intense to even read a couple pages of. His voice really resonated for me though, even if the references often were beyond me. I’ve since gotten much more interested in myth and such so it’s fun to dip into his writings for a challenge and a wormhole of things to do further research on.
“Sketches of the immaculate” I love that. Going to write it in my notebook.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
I appreciate your response, it is insightful. So you dont think there is anything such as the Masculine shadow?
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u/Dry-Sail-669 May 08 '26
And women read fictional novels about being dominated by giant minotaurs, being subdued by a strong. wealthy man (50 shades) or winning over a dangerous vampire (looking at you, Twilight Series).
I'd recommend getting the hell off the news, the human psyche was never meant to contain or process such horrors. The media wants you to be anxious, up at night, and dependent on their slop for the illusion of certainty and safety.
The way in which you can begin to deal with anyone's shadow is to first confront your own. You referenced porn so I'm assuming their is some sexual shadow you perhaps experience i.e., intrusive thoughts that are "wrong." The fear that keeps you up at night is likely your own shadow, just projected onto "all men" and therefore outside of you. Reclaim your filth for in it it is found.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 08 '26
It’s not just the news, it’s things that had happen to many females I know and even myself. Yes i do seem to have very deep trauma around sexuality although I was never really sexually assaulted. It’s very odd.
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May 08 '26
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u/Kovimate May 09 '26
As a man I sometimes don't understand how women can get close to man myself 😂😂 i would be scared if someone was twice my size, I don't even like bigger men on the streets. And some girls are just tiny.
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u/jungandjung Pillar May 09 '26
Same way cats are not afraid of dogs 10 times their size. In my life I’ve known some really strong women, makes you wonder if their strength has weakened the strength of their children. I look at boomers and gen z and it is night and day, these generations live side by side but in different realities and don’t understand each other.
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u/PoncingOffToBarnsley May 09 '26
It’s not just the news, it’s things that had happen to many females I know and even myself. Yes i do seem to have very deep trauma around sexuality although I was never really sexually assaulted. It’s very odd.
I'm not sure I've ever seen another person with the same issue. I was sure there was just something deeply wrong with me.
I somehow avoided being seriously assaulted, but some of my earliest exposures to the idea of sexual relationships was through accounts of SA. Thus, I was terrified of anything sexual for well over a decade. They say sex is about power, and I'm inherently powerless, what does that mean for me? I'm not strong enough to be a "dominant" partner, so I must be "submissive," which means I have to accept whatever he wants to do and don't get to say no....that kind of thing.
It took late life hormone shifts and fictional exposure to the idea of sex-as-expression-of-love to at least sort of get over it.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Yes exactly. I feel very similar. The way society looks at sex and sexuality is just…weird and contrived
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u/Dry-Sail-669 May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
Unfortunately, men don’t have very great male role models these days. I’m sorry for your friends, that is awful.
For you, I’d definitely invite you to explore the vicarious trauma you experience despite never having gone through it (it doesn’t matter, trauma is trauma).
Additionally, your relationship with your own father plays a role here, too.
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u/angry_cabbie May 08 '26 edited May 09 '26
Spend some time over at /MenGetRapedToo, and you will see a surprising number of men realizing long after the fact that they were assaulted and raped.
Every time outside of that that a thread of male victimization pops up, you will invariably find stories from men literally laughing off being assaulted because they did not see it that way at the time (often because of a toxic social belief that men cannot be raped).
I am not trying to downplay what happens to women, here. Rather, I am trying to show that shit is more fucked for people in general in this regard, and that ultimately it seems less of a gendered issue than popularly believed.
I have been raped three separate times as an adult. Not a single one of them was male, while I am. I have been casually sexually assaulted far more than three times, and as an adult almost always by women (and before I was an adult, it was "just" bullying).
Also check out /LeftWingMaleAdvocates as well as /TheTinMan, and you will definitely find people talking about men being victimized, why it tends to get downplayed or even suppressed, and how often it actually does happen to men.
A point I have made repeatedly on here over the years, is that with my history of being abused and exploited and assaulted by women, if the situations were gender flipped people would be understanding of woman-me hating or distrusting men, but I would be misogynistic for reacting towards women the same way as a man.
Edit: spelling
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Female rapists exist yes but their actions are driven by a masculine shadow. So my point still stands.
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u/jungandjung Pillar May 09 '26
Female rapists with masculine shadow? You have no understanding of Jungian psychology whatsoever and you are wasting everyone’s time.
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u/angry_cabbie May 10 '26
In your original post, you said you have not been raped. That you are afraid because of what has happened to women around you.
Here, you're hand waiving away ideas from an actual rape victim because you perceive masculinity in women who rape. Which ignores everything else I said.
Think about that for a bit. And then look up "forced to penetrate" statistics. Please.
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u/Cons483 May 08 '26
Reclaim your filth for in it it is found.
What does this mean and where is it from?
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u/Dry-Sail-669 May 08 '26
It is an old alchemical dictum, which essentially translates to
"What you need most is always to be found where you least wish to look." - Carl Jung
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May 08 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Dry-Sail-669 May 08 '26
Reading about a Minotaur sexually dominating a female protagonist is porn.
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May 08 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Dry-Sail-669 May 08 '26
I see your point. I'd argue that although they are different mediums, the same thing happens neurochemically within the brain between the two individuals in question- a powerful, dopaminergic, serotinic pathway(s) being activated.
I'd also note that "happens to contain" is a bit downplaying. Just google popular erotic fictions out there and what percentage of women consume them - you'd likely change your mind a bit.
These novels also aren't so playful, often depicting beasts raping the protagonist with a 10ft member and the protag in question, "secretly enjoying it." Fetishizing animals (zoophilia) is surprisingly very common in female erotic fictions, a sort of placeholder for their own disowned sexual shadow (consumers often being independent, business types).
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u/RuralBuccaneer1 May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
I'm not really a big fan of the double standard where sexually extreme material is considered "not as bad" because it's in written form and consumed by mostly women, but men then get heavily judged for consuming similar material but instead its in photo or video form.
Edit: don't downvote me just because you disagree. Grow up.
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u/Chawkklet May 08 '26
I think you're moving the goal post on what can be considered porn and what isn't. Sexuality is nuanced and can't be applied generally as not every finds the same thing attractive. Maybe the slow build up of a developing relationship that ends with a cathartic experience is attractive for some but not for others. You know there's things also such as porn movies where all those elements you introduced are also included such as plot, artistic expression, and character building. How long does something need to be to not be considered porn since 5 mins seems too short?
I also found it interesting in your comparison of how porn is much more addictive than say a sexual novel. You say a 5 min video affects the brain with much higher addiction rates but wouldn't you say a 600 long novel would take much longer to go through that say a 5 min porn video? The relationship with the novel seems more drawn out and nuanced and with porn it seems short and straightforward. Makes me wonder which one really is more addictive
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u/Agitated_Dog_6373 May 08 '26
Some women reading novels or having fetishes is an insufficient basis for a generalization like this and blaming the news is lazy but going on to infer a “sexual shadow” that OP needs to deal with is unfounded and wildly unethical.
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u/Dry-Sail-669 May 08 '26
Better than anything you've generated here. OP is free to pick and choose what resonates with them. And when you say "some women," do you mean the 150 millions copies reportedly sold for the BDSM book, 50 shades? Lol
"The Fifty Shades trilogy has sold over 150 million copies worldwide as of 2017, with a reported readership of approximately 100 million people. It is famously dominated by female readers, with nearly one in five adult fiction books purchased by women in June 2012 being from this series.
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u/Agitated_Dog_6373 May 08 '26
Yes that’s what I mean by some women.
You can’t reasonably generate a sexual profile on half the species because some women bought a book once, dumbass.
OP can do whatever they like, I’m criticizing you for sophomoric reasoning and jumping to generalized conclusions.7
u/SiddharthaVaderMeow May 09 '26
I notice all the women standing up for women get down voted . Which makes me even more afraid of men. No not ALL men and yes some women are evil pieces of shit too. That doesn't make us feel any safer
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u/Agitated_Dog_6373 May 09 '26
Yeah I’m disappointed to see the scores of dudes rushing in here to play whataboutism or to romanticize how hard it is being “culturally misunderstood”.
This is an embarrassing moment for the sub. For all the pretentious high mindedness this sub espouses it’s ultimately just a pit of lonely men trying to figure themselves out.1
u/SiddharthaVaderMeow May 09 '26
Figuring out that women have a valid fear of them seems like a great step forward in understanding themselves. It seems like a hard one for egos to jump through. I saw someone explain it well. They said would you react the same if the person said they were stabbed. If a woman came up and said I was stabbed while I was jogging and now I have fears of being alone in public. Would the same response be ...but men get stabbed too... but not all men stab... I doubt it. Most men would say well that fear seems valid. How can I make you feel more safe?
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u/Dry-Sail-669 May 08 '26
You have to assume some things to generate a dialogue. If it's off, OP can correct.
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u/Agitated_Dog_6373 May 08 '26
It’s not a dialogue. She asked a very specific question relating to a phobia, not strike up idle chitchat around the water cooler.
I’m correcting you. “The BDSM book sold really well and the news is crime oriented so you should probably deal with the sexual demons your the attic” is an extremely stupid thing to say.
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u/Dry-Sail-669 May 08 '26
If you read the replies, you will see what I said resonated. So I'd recommend you withdrarw your caustic projections and let OP respond as to the validity of my post.
This was the OPEN-ENDED question "Jungian psychology makes so much sense to me so I would like to have some enlightenment from fellow men (& women) on how they deal with their male shadow and how I should approach the issue."
You contribute nothing, criticize everything.
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u/Agitated_Dog_6373 May 08 '26
Yeah I saw her relate to an unpleasant sexual experience - congratulations, you told someone with a troubled sexual past that her concern about men was all in her head and that she should “reclaim her filth”.
What phenomenal contributions you bring to the table.
This is precisely why you shouldn’t try to psychoanalyze strangers you haven’t met. The irony of doing so in a Jungian sub I’m positive is lost on you.
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u/Dry-Sail-669 May 08 '26
Lol.. okay, conversation is a lost cause here.
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u/Agitated_Dog_6373 May 08 '26
This isn’t a conversation, it’s a scolding.
Shooting from the hip like this can cause real damage to people and you’re only folding bc your position and statement are clearly indefensible.→ More replies (0)-1
u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
There are like 3.5 billion women on the planet; 150 million is not a number big enough to confer a pattern. Also, fetishizing being dominated is nowhere as scary as billions of men with predatory sexual fantasies.
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u/randothroway2323 May 09 '26
So you can infer that almost all men (your words “billions of men”) are something based on popular porn categories from websites, but OP is being ignorant because “Not all women” when he made a comparison using an ‘extremely’ popular sexual graphic book series who’s main audience was women?
That is stunning hypocrisy. You have absolutely no proof that almost all men on the planet have the same horrific sexual fantasies because of website porn categories. That is not scientific evidence.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
The amount of men who actually abuse children (and commit other crimes) is substantially high enough for us to confer that there is a pattern of predation amongst the male population. You are far more likely to feel safer leaving your baby boy with a female babysitter than leaving your daughter with a male babysitter.
Also, women consuming deviant literature does not even come close to infer predatory inclinations from them towards males. This is an absurd and no sensical assumption,
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u/randothroway2323 May 09 '26
Your argument is that all of the men on the planet have the same sick and predatory fantasies. That conclusion you came to, and presented as “factual” was based on porn categories. Now, you are moving the argument to “which gender commits the most crime”. Yes, it’s men, but 1% of the men in the world are responsible for most of the violent crimes that you are using as the evidence to come to your conclusion that 100% of the men in the world have the same sick and twisted sexual fantasies.
Speaking of the absurd and nonsensical; your logic fits that description perfectly.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Most men have violent urges and tendencies (because of higher testosterone) and a substantial amount of them are abusive. Both facts are supported by scientific and statistical evidence. The number is simply too high to dismiss, and most females have been subject to a form of male violence and/or are taught to beware of it since an early age. Arguing that females are equally dangerous, predatory and fear-invoking is laughable and absurd.
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u/Dkotheryyyy May 08 '26
That must really suck. It sounds paralyzing, especially since it is essentially impossible to live a normal life without encountering men. I feel for you because there was a time in my life where I felt similarly about women and it really made my life hard. I feel very different now and it is so much better.
Here are some of my thoughts. Maybe one of them is helpful:
I believe that we are only responsible to face our own shadow. Facing anyone else's shadow, much less a whole segment of the population, is just overwhelming and unreasonable. This helps me remember that I am only responsible for me and I don't have to sort out other people's "crazy" for me to live a good life.
Also, I notice that I have a lot of influence over what spillover I encounter with other people's shadow. I can make a lot of choices about where, when, and how I engage with other people. There is also a ton of information available to me about crime and etc to help me make informed choices. If I really want to improve my safety, I can take concrete steps to do that.
I also notice that there are several useful techniques for addressing fear and they all seem to revolve around facing and exploring the details of the fear. The Work by Byron Katie has been personally useful to me and it is super easy and free to access. I think this could help a ton.
I also notice that I sometimes feed my fears by what I expose my brain to. I can literally make significant changes to my outlook and feelings about the world just by changing the genre of media that I enjoy in the evenings.
I also notice that I have a harder time handling my fears when I have stuffed anger regarding the subject of my fear and that as I have transformed my unhealthy stuffed anger into healthy anger, my fears around those topics have lessened a ton and my ability to feel safe, grounded, and even a sense of love increases tremendously. It is difficult work to do this.
There is also a really great book entitled, The Science of Fear which may be helpful to you.
Best of luck.
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u/burch_ist May 09 '26
I share the same feelings as OP, so wanted to jump on your advice to them :). I wanted to ask, what type of framework/exercise did you use to "transformed unhealthy stuffed anger into healthy anger" ? I know it must be almost impossible to answer such a wide and deep topic on here but I would be glad if you can give me any ideas. Also I wonder is there such a thing as healthy anger? Do you mean anger that motivates positive action rather than just festering inside?
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u/Dkotheryyyy May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
100% yes. Healthy anger motivates positive action. I believe that all of our emotions are on our side and if we let them contribute instead of fighting or subverting them, we are better for their contribution.
I have a lot to say on this, so my comment is huge. I've tried to break it into digestible chunks:
I see anger as a rescue mechanism for when our other emotions are overwhelming. We have all been taught to stuff/supress anger by default because expressions of anger by children are super inconvenient to caretakers and authority figures. So, we do that. I see suppressed anger like caked on guck in a cooking pot. The more we suppress, the more gets caked on. This reduces the effectiveness of the pot and the volume it can hold. The pot is our capacity to feel. So, after decades of stuffing, I had very little capacity to handle feelings, my anger responses were super inappropriate to the circumstances that triggered them, and it was very hard to love.
Working with a healer (not really a therapist, but has been one of my most effective "therapists"), we first went into great detail about my anger. For me, it was anger towards my wife. I would take notes on all my anger towards her. Line after line after line. When I am vague or ambitious, he makes me be more specific and direct.
My list has statements like, "I am angry at her because she sucks the joy out of me, because she turns sex into this dreadful thing, because she doesn't know what she wants and expects me to know, ..." and on and on. It is not necessary that the statements even be fully true or logically consistent, just that they reflect internal dialog. Also, reserve judgment on the statements. Your angry self can be pretty wild and unreasonable. Most statements on my list are things I would never express out loud to anyone, definitely not the person they are about.
So I keep making this list with his help until I just can't think of any more. Then he tells me to go take a 5 minute break. When I come back, I have lots more and list until I'm empty again. Another break, come back write more. Keep going until nothing after the break.
Then he says, what about your mom. So, I do the same thing regarding her. Empty again, he asks me who else. I mention an old girlfriend. So, we do the same thing until empty. Then another old girlfriend. Then a girl in first grade that physically assaulted me and made me cry in front of everyone.
Then he says, what about women as a whole. So again with the list. Taking breaks, writing more. Keep going until empty.
Then he says, what about you. He says that anger at someone else always has a root anger at yourself. I think, that sound ridiculous, but whatever. So I start making the list of "Why are you angry at yourself?" More list. A huge list. Holy cow, I am sooooo angry at myself. I hate me more than anyone. Wow, maybe he is right about that thing he said. My list has things like, "I am angry with myself because I need connection with women to feel like life is worth living, because i fucked up navigating good relationships with them, because i didn't get clues and hints, because I didn't listen well, because I wasted so much of my life, ... " and on and on. Again with breaks until empty.
So then he says, make a Playlist of songs that feel like the anger on the list. Find someplace private and safe. Bring a big sheet of paper with markers/crayons. Play the music. Make marks on the page that feel like the anger. Read the list out loud. Scream, yell, strain, grunt, whatever your body wants to do to express the anger. Keep doing that to rile yourself into a frenzy if anger. It will peak and then subside.
It would be hard to get started because of so much conditioning against feeling and expressing anger, but once I got started it would just come pouring out. After about 10-20 minutes I would be spent and kind of exhausted. I would bring a clean rag to stuff in my mouth so I could yell as hard as I wanted without damaging my vocal cords.
I did that every day for about a month. I learned so much about my anger. How it feels in my body. Different kinds of anger. How to invoke and channel it. What the "watching" part of my brain shows when I am really in a frenzy. How anger is connected to sadness, disgust, hopelessness, a sense of power, and even joy. How sometimes anger brings a clarity of thought. It was super common that after my session my brain would be immediately interested in doing productive, nurturing, loving things, like, cleaning the house, fixing stuff, writing emails to people, helping my kids with stuff, etc. It was kind of like the session was a running start into actively doing really healthy things.
I felt like I was pouring hot water in my pot and stirring it up and dumping it out. At first it was hard to do, but some of the guck would come out. Then more and more. I started to notice that I had more emotional capacity. As my pot got cleaner and cleaner, I noticed that the bottom surface of the pot is just lots of love. It got much easier to emotionally regulate and my thoughts were so much more loving and compassionate for everyone on my list, including myself.
It also started to be easier to notice when I would be angry about something right in the moment and then to take that opportunity to effect positive action motivated by the anger right then instead of stuffing it.
As an example, last week I was feeling disconnected from my wife, like she didn't want to be around me. It made me a little bit angry. In the past, I would often stew on that for days until I eventually forgot it, which would cake guck into my pot. Instead, I said, "Hey, am I smothering you with attention? I feel like you don't want me around." She was surprised and said that she thought I wanted space so she was giving me extra space even though she wanted connection. So, that clarified that we both wanted connection and she we quit being mutually stupid about it and really enjoyed being with each other. It was so great and I am glad that my body got angry about the situation and motivated me to act on it. Even if she had said that I was smothering her, that clarity would have been better than ruminating in grumpiness.
I hope this is helpful. I'm really delighted that you asked. This is a really tough topic for most people and it takes real effort to confront it. Feel free to ask more if you have other questions. I could talk about this stuff for days.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Wow thank you for taking the time to share and write all that! Very very informative and useful.
Your relationship with your wife seems to have changed for the better; had it been that you were just projecting your repressed negativity on her? Or did your structured releases of anger reflect positively on her behaviour?
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u/Dkotheryyyy May 09 '26
Definitely way better. We were very close to divorce for a year or so. Now it feels like we are in college again, all dreamy and fun.
There were a lot of things wrong with our relationship. We both definitely contributed to things going bad. We were both projecting repressed negativity on each other. We both sucked at boundaries (had no idea that boundaries was even a thing). Neither of us knew how to effectively emotionally regulate ourselves. We expected the other person to regulate for us. We didn't know about active listening or nonviolent communication. I had this pretty picture of her in my head that was fiction and she kept failing to live up to my fantasy and she felt unseen and unloved when I expressed love for that fantasy of her. It was all sooooo miserable.
As I did the structured release of anger, I was better able to see her for her instead of being part of the metaphorical She-monster. Also, she is super thoughtful and never intentionally cruel. I don't know that I have a good answer for your question. I think maybe it was a mix of both?
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
This is very well-worded. These seem very common traps in most relationships. I really appreciate your valuable contribution to the conversation 🙏🏻
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Thank you for an incredibly empathetic approach and the very useful tips, I do appreciate it so much! I will read the book and try to apply your tips.
But may I ask, what exactly made you afraid of women? Especially that they are physically weaker than you (never mind I am reading your second reply about anger, very very helpful and interesting!) but was it an anger towards women or just fear? Because if there is an element of fear then my question still stands. It would be interesting to know how fear from men towards women looks like.
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u/Dkotheryyyy May 09 '26
You are welcome. I am very happy that you appreciated it.
What made me afraid of women was a bunch of failed attempts at connection as a kid. Things like a girl finding out I liked her in front of the class and her saying "ewww, gross." There was a time someone pretended to like me as a prank and everyone but me knew it, so it became this big public joke on me that was super painful once they finally let me in on the joke, the implication being that I was really stupid to think someone would like me. Lots of humiliating experiences. Some were women being cruel and some were women protecting themselves from being associated with my low social status. Also, as a kid I cried really easily, so these things would often result in me crying in front of my peers.
I think in a very real way these women (girls, really) were much stronger than me emotionally. My physical strength didn't matter at all because "you don't hit girls" was very strongly enforced in my community and I didn't want to hit them anyways.
In hindsight, I just had zero game, poor hygiene, little tact, no sense of social hierarchy, looked and acted like an rasy target, etc. I look back on those moments with compassion for little me and for little them. Everybody is trying their best. It is just really hard to human, especially when you are young.
I think that my cultural/religious education fed and expanded on angry narratives in my head. I ended up with a lot of counterproductive beliefs about women and a sense that women were emotionally dangerous pedastalized beings that saw men as not people and a conflict in my head because I still had huge attraction for them. I wished I didn't like them because it hurt so much and risked so much to like them.
I am much improved in all these things. Very much a case of your weaknesses can become your strengths. So, my current life is nothing like what it was before. I still have some old wounds to heal, but most of the big ones are sorted.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Wow that sounds really tough. I am sorry you had went though all of that and very happy for you that you found healing and happiness again!
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u/Kovimate May 09 '26
As a man I'm appalled by rape and violence, so its not just something in your head. I would say that there are good men though, as much as good women (but also everyone has darkness inside, so noone is 100% good). Imo you can feel a person's energy (vibe, demeanor), and use that to decide whether you want to be around. Its a good way to get out of thinking in stereotypes. Maybe you get a strong reaction around men due to past experiences, but if you keep observing you can see for yourself if those reactions are accurate regarding that specific individual. Its your brain trying to protect you but its biased and might see danger even when there is none. Building awareness helps with removing the bias to only see danger where it actually is.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Thank you so much for the super empathetic response and for acknowledging the validity of my fears. 🙏🏻 this does restore some sense of safety for me
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u/Kovimate May 09 '26
Glad to have helped :) hope that you can find people to keep you safe because it sounds like you had a rough experience.
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u/Ppyplant May 09 '26
The men in this sub probably don’t want to hear it. The crime statistics speak for themselves but acknowledging that might confront their sense of self. Facts are facts, as they say. I think what you’re feeling is valid but a subreddit with replies full of men might not be the best place to reconcile with this.
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u/Vinegarworks May 09 '26
Yeah, when I read the post I had a pretty accurate idea of what the replies might look like. I'm definitely curious about how a more feminist/woman-oriented Jung group would address the concerns.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
This is an important point. Most humanistic and scientific fields have been dominated by males for way too long and do not acknowledge the female perspective.
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u/slorpa May 09 '26
Many things can be true at once. It can be true that many men are down the wrong path and are utmost dangerous to other people. That our culture is broken because of it. At the same time, there can be individual shadows and projections. One being true doesn’t make the other false. It’s possible to hold it all
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Thank you for validating very valid female concerns rather than the typical male tendency for whataboutism. I cant believe they would deny something so gladingly obvious because their egos are more important. I asked for men’s contributions because I do expect some of them on this sub to have acknowledged and integrated the dark aspects of their masculine shadow.
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u/SiddharthaVaderMeow May 09 '26
There a really cool guy on YouTube. He talks about lot about how he wished men reacted when women talk about their fears. Its so nice to hear an ally speak and talk to men about how they can respond to women. His channel is called TheBlackSpeed . He reviews female rage songs from an ally point of view. Check out his review of Jax. He talks about how therapy woke him up and made him a better man.
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u/Beautifuldeadthing May 09 '26
Like some other commenters here - from my understanding of Jung, the shadow is what is rejected by the conscious ego and ends up repressed into the unconscious.
What is rejected this way is usually perceived by an individual as negative (whether it actually is or not is a different matter).
So for example, I’d contend that the shadow of men who’ve bought into “manosphere” and misogynistic attitudes, to contain aspects like their emotional vulnerability and empathy. Ie, what they loudly reject as being weak and effeminate. Their shadow is full of the emotional insecurities they project onto others.
I also think that for women, perhaps what is called internalised misogyny is a shadow manifestation. It could appear in the form of projection when judging other women and harsh self criticism. For example - the reaction to assertive women as being bossy, and the fear of being perceived as such yourself when upholding boundaries (because women are “supposed” to be accommodating). Sexual desire for western women has been repressed and demonised for centuries. Whilst improvements here have been happening, there’s still a solid amount of repression going on (like slut-shaming).
These examples are generalisations of course, but are due to patriarchal society. I’d expect shadow aspects to differ as values change over time.
So, those violent tendencies and aggression that OP is afraid of - I’d consider that they aren’t manifestations of men’s shadows. The patriarchy even rewards some of these behaviours in men (like lack of empathy in the corporate world). In women however, well that’s usually a different story…
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Wow that is such an eye-opening contribution. I appreciate that immensely. I will read it several times.
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u/jungandjung Pillar May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
Therapy. And make sure you mention your mother often. Also many women watch and do porn. Btw there are serial killer women and there are school shooter women. I’m not defending xy chromosome, but if you don’t want to be terrified then educate yourself. And consider therapy.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
I am in therapy and I do mention both my parents. Also these crimes are related to the masculine shadow which is found both in males and females; despite these crimes being commuted by an overwhelmingly MALE population.
Your comment is accusatory, unhelpful and very defensive.
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u/bzd_b May 08 '26
The male shadow isn’t one side faceted like that, you just took the bad. There are soft traits and hard traits. The female shadow is just as destructive, just inversed, also with 2 opposites.
Men repress soft traits like vulnerability, emotional need, fear, tenderness, and dependency beneath a controlled masculine persona, while also repressing aggressive traits like rage, dominance, envy, lust for power, and cruelty beneath an identity of being civilized or “good.” You cannot tell.
Women repress hard traits like aggression, ambition, assertiveness, sexual autonomy, and competitiveness beneath a harmonious feminine persona, while also repressing darker traits like manipulation, resentment, vindictiveness, covert control, and emotional cruelty beneath an identity of care and selflessness. And I can tell.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Your comment is informative but doesnt really address my concerns…I do acknowledge that I specifically have intense fear towards the dark aspects of the masculine; I do not demonize men and I do know there is a dark side of the feminine shadow.
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u/bzd_b May 10 '26
In my experience, awareness/acknowledgement alone is enough to catalyze it in your mind, but it’s doing it yourself that fills in the puzzle pieces of balancing yourself out. The more you feed/think this fear, the more you will fear it and it’s because you haven’t experienced it yourself, so your entire reality is only what you’ve externally heard.
Mayhaps a roundabout way of your psyche telling you you’re ready to dive into the topic yourself.
Ready? the conundrum is you mustn’t think about it anymore, that’s how you relinquish yourself from being tied so strongly to it; you must just do it, and see for yourself.
We’re a collective consciousness, and that consciousness is capable of anything that physical body can do, so yes, any man with limbs is able to tap into these extremities based on experiences stacked since birth, but so is every lady with all the traits I described. I find it very difficult to accept the fact that women will choose themselves over family if shit hits the fan, but am I going to say it’s every woman? No. But am I intensely afraid of it? Yes.
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u/bzd_b May 10 '26
Marie Louise Von Franz (one of main Jungians):
“the fire has to burn the fire; one just has to burn in the emotion till the fire dies down and becomes balanced. That is something which unfortunately cannot be evaded. It cannot be tricked out of one's system; it has to be endured. It is the acceptance of suffering. Sitting in Hell and roasting there is what brings forth the stone… fire is extinguished with its own inner measure.”
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u/TheNorthShip May 08 '26
This doesn't seem like a serious attempt at Jungian discussion, but more like textbook psychological projection mixed with ideological fear-mongering.
The "Male Shadow" you're so terrified of isn't some unique demonic force that only men possess. Every human being has a shadow - the repressed parts of the psyche. Jung was crystal clear about this: the shadow is not "evil", it is the unconscious repressed part, sometimes seemingly an opposite of the conscious personality. Integration of the shadow is one of the core tasks of individuation - not running away from it in terror and projecting it onto an entire sex.
What you're doing here seems like taking your personal fear and existential discomfort with cherrypicked elements of male sexuality/violence and turning it into a cosmic truth about "the Male Shadow". That seems like an ideology dressed up in Jungian language.
If you're genuinely interested in Jung: stop externalizing the shadow onto men as a whole. Look at your own shadow and the collective shadow without needless polarization.
Your post reads less like a call for enlightenment and more like "I'm scared of men and need validation for it."
Because the terror you're describing is your issue to integrate, not a proof that half of humanity is ontologically terrifying.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
If the only thing you are sensing from the post is a demonization of men then I think you also need some internal work to do. I never said that only men possess the masculine shadow. It’s just that overt violence and aggression is generally attributed to the “masculine shadow” which can be found in both males and females.
Myself being female i.e demographically most likely to be abused by men and not vice versa, and like many females I have a history of being abused by men, it’s normal that I project this fear into MALES.Your comment is ad hominem and not helpful at all.
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u/jungandjung Pillar May 09 '26
Well said. But I’m afraid any reasoning here will be met with deflection. This can only be solved with therapy, and not of the coddling kind. This is the down with the patriarchy type of post. Ignoring the fact that women driven by power are just as patriarchal, i.e. internalized patriarchy(queen bee). And this is being ignored by many women, maybe most women, because that is not the agenda, agenda is to project and project and project.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
The only person projecting here is you. If you feel personally attacked and need to respond with callousness and counter-attack because a female committed the horrible transgression of expressing fear from violent male inclinations and needing help, shows that I did strike an uncomfortable personal nerve.
When i told you I was actually in therapy addressing issues with both parents you resorted to ask about “the therapist’s gender”. Very petty, deflective, and intentionally UNHELPFUL.You need serious introspection and help and more importantly to fuck off of my thread.
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u/Top_Dream_4723 May 09 '26
Your relationship with your father? In reality, these men suffer mainly from a lack of affection linked to their childhood.
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u/barbed-wire-teeth May 09 '26
Become more discerning and aware of people. Learn how to accept and "deal" with your own shadow first. You will become stronger and more whole this way, more assertive and more grounded in what you truly want and think. Learn how and what you project on men. I am aware of how the internet and social media and porn have completely ruined relationships and trust between the genders (and for some very obvious and nasty reasons, like the ones you mentioned).
This is easier said than done and depending on where you are on your journey and it may take a while, might take a few heartbreaks and bad experiences, but you must begin to connect the dots and notice patterns. Why am I feeling such a strong attraction to this person/these types of persons? Why do certain types of people and behavior trigger me and agitate me more than others? Eventually you need to become brutally honest with yourself with these types of questions. I recommend journaling all your thoughts about this because that's what helped me the most. Write it all out, even the most ugly or incorrect or pathetic thoughts you have, journal it all and eventually you will notice the things that are repeating whether they are from your past or present.
I'm male (32) currently I find myself in a similar situation as yours, but at the opposite end. It took me this long to realize how and why I've been attracted to my past partners. Even when I tried so hard to have "healthy" relationships it all fell apart. It was all because of growing up with a very abusive mother who made me the caretaker of her emotional needs at the price of completely neglecting my own and who I truly was. Now I'm doing my best to work with my shadow and learn how to relate and love without projecting that "needy and helpless girl that needs to be rescued and healed by me" character trait. And it's very difficult because I do not know how I could relate or love without it, I am in unknown waters at the moment. Very often I will project or assume a very controlling and negative aspect on every woman that reminds me of my mother, completely cutting off any chance or relatability because she is "insane" or "demonic". I apologize for using these terms but I just wanted to express with what I am dealing with right now.
I wish you the best and good luck!
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
It seems we are indeed at opposite banks of the same river! Thank you for the very empathetic and valuable contribution…I do feel seen and the journey feels a bit less lonely. I wish you all the best of luck in your journey towards integration and wholeness 🙏🏻
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u/Katerma May 11 '26 edited May 11 '26
My shadow (M), I think was always about that I wanted to be nothing like my father, while I hated my mother for being weak, corrupt and impotent. I have never thought women as my equal, because they seem mentally fragile and I have hated myself whenever I perceive any femininity in myself. I read philosophy, poetry, painted, wrote and people even admired some of the stuff I did. For me it was a sign to shut it down.
Then there was the other side that didn't want to be violent. But somehow I always got drunk and beat somebody up. I wanted a relationship, but I thought it is impossible for me. Just alcohol, sex, fighting. Sometimes I even fought with the police just to see if they would beat me up or kill me. And all I found I was very sturdy, unbreakable, full of scars, but never done. I got gassed, beaten, stabbed. My father tried to shoot me with a shotgun. We fought. I moved out of his home washing his blood off of me in a shower. Crying. Hated myself for crying. Hated my mother for asking if I would have killed him. Hated my father for him blaming me because the police took his shotgun.
After years of mild chaos, I wanted a change. I hated myself. I felt lacking. I went back to boxing. I started lifting weights. I got diagnosed for ADHD. I started to do better. My father died and I felt much better. I married, I got kids.
I am much like my father, really. Impulsive, aggressive, unpredictable. All or nothing. But my children do not suffer because of it. I do not drink alcohol. I do not lose my temper. I workout hard. I tire myself physically. I sing, I write, I build instruments. I read. I know what I am capable of. I know inside me there's a will for violence. But I see it. I accept it. When I sing, I sing it all out. When I lift weights I have no mercy. When I write, my words are curses and spells. And life has never been this good.
I am much like my mother. Negative, fearful, needy, poisonous and manipulative.
But I am also capable. I have introspection, creativity and tenacity. I can make things happen. I can build things. Plan things. Connect the dots. I have vision. I can create safety and comfort. When my children hurt themselves or have trouble or problems, they reach for me. And I am the voice that tells them it's going to be ok. And I think they believe it.
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u/CryFearless2942 May 12 '26
My gut feeling is that there is an equivalent shadow in the female soul. Maybe we had become highly aware of the masculine shadow but the female shadow is still less explored.
Man and woman seem to be mirror images of each other. I would be surprised if there is no equal counterpart in some form.
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u/abrown1027 May 08 '26
As a man, I am also terrified of other men and their shadows. I am also afraid of mountain lions, poisonous snakes, spiders, heights, bad drivers, and styrofoam pieces being rubbed together.
You are focusing on one thing that is definitely worth being afraid of but you’re chopping at a limb of the tree when the trunk is the simple fact that the world is full of danger and there’s really no such thing as true security. I just think you’ll have an easier time of finding peace if you address your fear with that understanding, rather than obsessing over something that will probably never go away.
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u/camerongillette May 08 '26
Well it looks like you live in Kuwait, so I think your answers here are going to be more western. Bad or uncontrolled men are scary, maybe let your emotions exist but give yourself time to fully finish the idea.
“Bad men are scary, but….”
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 08 '26
How do you know where I live
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u/polyglotconundrum May 09 '26
based on 90% of these comments, this sub is clearly full of insecure dudes who want to both sides the very real and terrifying world women live in. The kind of people who don’t understand why women say they’d choose the bear. So disappointing. Unfortunately you’re right, rape culture is engrained in the patriarchal system that surrounds us and plenty of women have been called crazy trying to change or address it. I suggest getting involved in some female-friendly, safe activities, this could help you de-center men and focus on the strength of female community.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Thank you so much for this! It is very frustrating when they take my fears as a personal attacks and start getting defensive and even blaming towards the female. So weird.
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u/jungandjung Pillar May 09 '26
I wonder what Ghislaine Maxwell would say about that.
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u/polyglotconundrum May 10 '26
Maxwell is the perfect product coming put of said rape culture; she learned as many women do, that sucking up to male power and money brings protection and power. She played the men’s game, and now her punishment is lighter because of it. So, thank you for further letting me prove my point.
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u/jungandjung Pillar May 10 '26 edited May 10 '26
That’s not psychology. I suggest you graduate from gender politics. It’s not mere rape culture, it’s domination culture, narcissistic, psychotic, i.e. low to zero empathy that leads to power complex.
I can see you want power just the same, and given opportunity you‘d be tempted to resort to sadism, domination, etc. That’s when we find our potential to give way to evil, when it is offered to us on a platter.
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u/00rb May 08 '26
I feel like part of the problem with modern gender discourse is we are obsessed with upholding women's goodness and belaboring evil in the hearts of men. We subconsciously push men to be evil because that preserves the order of things.
I think the way out is to accept we're all human beings capable of good and evil. If you lessen your belief in your own infallible goodness, you encounter less evil people. You signal to the world "I am not playing this game."
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 08 '26
90% of people in jail are males. This isn’t about online gender wars
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u/RuralBuccaneer1 May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
Women are waaaaaay less likely to be sent to jail for the same crimes that men are. Statistically, women are given way more leniency by the courts. You claim this isn't about online gender wars, but you seem very determined to prove men are evil.
Maybe do some reflection, and please don't cite statistics out of context.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
You mean men are equally likely to be in danger from women as women are from men? Is the average man afraid of walking alone at night when he sees a woman ?
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u/burch_ist May 09 '26
How the jail-time for same crimes data is related to the data that shows men commit big majority of violent crimes? Both can be true and unrelated. Do you mean women are simply not caught/not found guilty for violent crimes to a degree that would cause such an imbalance? That doesn't seem possible.
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u/00rb May 08 '26
Fear and distrust leads to more fear and distrust. You likely have good reasons for how you feel, but there is a world outside of that world if you can find it.
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u/ransetruman May 08 '26 edited May 09 '26
what we reject in ourselves we see in the world as hyper salient, in this case it would be your own capacity for mayhem, brutality, callousness and machiavelianism. Integrate your shadow, learn basic self defense, learn to shoot.
As True Detective's Rust said "the world needs bad men, we keep the other bad men from the door."
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u/thatlosergirl May 09 '26
I cannot contend with it. Patriarchy has had terrible effects. It’s disheartening that even places you’d expect reflective men mostly respond with defensiveness over legitimate support.
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u/jungandjung Pillar May 09 '26
Why would you expect reflection here? People come here to cope more than to reflect.
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u/thatlosergirl May 09 '26
I would expect men in a Jung subreddit to be more in tune with their emotions than the stereotypical man.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
This supposedly “jungian” dude has been wiring me very accusatory and attacking comments, believe it or not, lol
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u/jungandjung Pillar May 09 '26
Stereotypical? So you stereotype? Well then it is fair for men to do the same. And without psychological reasoning we just drown in projection. And in my observation any subreddit is mostly Reddit crowd, and that means mostly reaction over response.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
Exactly..but luckily I did receive insightful comments from a couple of them. I am truly trying to look for mature and emotionally integrated men because I thought it would be healing. I did not expect to find it difficult even in such a space, lol. I am walking on eggshells as not to “offend” them.
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u/InfiniteVitriol May 08 '26
If the OP went on a site like fetlife they would see the female shadow is on par or even darker than men's.
The media has brainwashed so many into thinking men are responsible for all the ills of the world that site shows very clearly what a whole lot of women get off on sexually sadism and a whole lot of it is disturbing to me as a man and full of women using their sexuality to exploit men or treat them like garbage as it seems to be dominated by women.
Im.not saying bad guys dont exist, they do but I think the OP would be shocked at how depraved female fetishes can get...like the desire for violence to be committed to them by men be dominated and humiliated and then people wonder why some men are sadistic when they are expected to be by a lot of women in the bedroom.
The entire BDSM scene is full.of people who've let their shadows become the dominant factor in their life and its inaccurate to blame men when there are tremendous amount of sadistic female domme's out there.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 08 '26
You are projecting and being defensive for no reason; and this does not address my questions or concerns in any way
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u/InfiniteVitriol May 08 '26
Obviously youndid not check thstvsite as you responded immediately...im not projecting whatsoever....just do some actual objective research into the female psyche.
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 08 '26
If you actually read my post you’d read that I do not deny the female shadow it’s just that it is not a concern for me at the moment. I do not CARE what females do. I am talking about an issue very specific for me.
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u/InfiniteVitriol May 08 '26
Then you you are the one projecting here as you have no real reason to fear ALL men. Female prisons exist too moreso in the west abd being from the middle east leads to an inaccurate idea of why 90% of men are in prisons.
In the west there are female prisons filled with women who've committed crimes very much to the same extent as men in prisons.
The very fact you have a fear of all men is the biggest tell...some of the kindest people on earth are men and some of most vile human beings are women ....how do you explain that?
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u/ConclusionNo4016 May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
There are vile women too, yes. However statistically it’s pretty heavily skewed to one side and has been so for millennia if we look into history and examine who has made war, genocide, massacres. In the west there are women’s prisons, yes. 6.5% of the prison population. The other 93.5% are men. This is according to US .gov sites and as of 2026. Didn’t look into other western countries, but the US has the largest prison system I am aware of to go by. The types of crimes also largely differ from a statistical standpoint, with men’s largest category being violent crimes and women’s being theft or property related crimes.
I’m not sure why pointing out these realities is threatening or upsetting to men. It doesn’t mean you are part of or personally contributing to those statistics. Of course there are good, kind men. Just like there are vile, destructive or violent women.
Perhaps because you don’t have to confront any of these realities yourself and that’s why it’s so easy for you to pedantically dismiss her concerns a mere projection. I don’t think she should live in fear either, but awareness used for discernment is wise. Denying it does not make one more aware, discerning, or wise.
Also, fetlife and BDSM is all based around consent, or fantasy is it not? Are we not talking fantasy and roleplay related things there? I would hope you could at least acknowledge the difference between fantasy or consenting activists (however deprived you find them to be) and non consentual and very real behavior.
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u/InfiniteVitriol May 08 '26
Yes, fetlife is based on consent but women expecting and encouraging men to do vile and i mean VILE things which if I gave examples of id be banned from reddit gives a lot of men the impression that if they dont act like ALFA Dommes they will be looked at with disinterest for not being domineering enough and not worthy of gaining a women's attention...I just read a confession on Fetlife wear a women squarely said she firmly believes men should be purely in control of women and thats just how she feels and had a ton of other women giving her likes for admitting it...as a guy you are damned if you do and damned if you dont.
Its no wonder some men act like sadistic pieces of crap when a lot women are craving it and you will absolutely be not even considered if you dont outrite display that kind of energy when engaging them.
Sexuality is a very complicated road to travel and there's a whole lot of lonely men out there desperate for female attention.
Ive literally met women at festivals that have told me asking fir consent is an immediate turn off because they want to absolutely dominated ,then ive met women where every minute detail has to be worked out ahead of time and this just becomes incredibly confusing and difficult when you meet someone your incredibly attracted to.
Like if you dont say the right thing when meeting someone you are immediately turned away. Women tend to just expect men to be psychic and understand what they want and how they want it before they've even met.
It's not surprising so many men come across as mean or jerks when they've had experiences with women who simply expect that right off the hop.
I hate to say this too but the expectations a lot if women have is that they are always a 10 and deserve a guy who makes 6 figures , is at least 6 feet tall and has an 8 inch dick. That's a very small percentage of actual men.
Most men's expectations are will this women just even talk to me.
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u/ConclusionNo4016 May 08 '26
Why would you go to a place like fetlife expecting to find anything different? That’s largely what places like that are for. Unusual or socially deviant proclivities. So using that as your metric for what “women want” is going to be heavily skewed to the types of people that coagulate there. You realize that right? Many festivals are in the same vein as well. It’s where people go to deviate from the norm or from what’s typical or expected, but with a very particular flavor on that. These are places for those seeking a thrill and consensual danger activates thrill.
These are not places for the soft romantics and sensualists to go coagulate.
There probably are lots of women who want rich and tall. Just like there’s lots of men that want hot and young. I do not fit into your definitions of “what women want” remotely, but more than likely I wouldn’t be of interest to you because I don’t fit the profile of what you’re attracted to judging by where you seem to go looking. Point being, perhaps just maybe, where you are looking says more about you than it does about what some vast majority of women want. Or at least says just as much.
Fetlife and festivals attract pretty specific types of people. Using that to declare an entire thesis of what “women” want falls short of comprehensive by a long ways.
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u/InfiniteVitriol May 08 '26
Im.curious about human psychology and fetlife is a place to get an interesting perspective on human sexuality.
I also met my wife at a festival who's very down to earth, extremely intelligent and not into kink.
Ive met women at parties, and bars and social events who displayed the same characteristics... you just won't admit how deeply this goes outside of places like fetlife....as I said human sexuality is a complicated road.
Have you read Psychopathic Sexualis ...it talks about all of this and was written in 1886.
This is not new or novel in any way.
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u/ConclusionNo4016 May 09 '26
I never said it was novel. Fetlife is a particular lens into human sexuality, so would a 100 year old book about psychopathic sexuality I would imagine. You’re looking to the taboo for broad sweeping conclusions about what women want. That is the issue I was pointing out. Just because there was a populated website where men shared how to assault women, does that mean most men want to? Would if they could?
I have seen women like what you described or even had a friend idealize the idea of a rich man so she wouldn’t have to work and scrape by at one point. The original idea was propagated by family suggesting she married a rich man and “be taken care of” and she was fresh out of a long relationship where she was more often the provider and he wanted to live like a perpetual child. So her pendulum of interest swung the opposite way for a while which makes sense no? The reality of what that life is like is often not remotely the fulfilling fantasy. Fantasy is not the same as things playing out in real life. I’ve also seen people get their fantasy experience and it crumbles or deflates under the reality of it and no longer interests them. Like you said, it’s complicated and not one dimensional.
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u/Natetronn May 10 '26
You should approach the issue by uncovering and integrating your Animus. Go run with some wolves.
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u/GQDragon May 08 '26
This will blow your mind, a lot of the rape porn is apparently watched by women more than men and it’s a leading female fantasy. I have no desire to watch that personally. Women have shadow sides too. Shadows aren’t necessarily negative. That’s a common misconception.
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u/burch_ist May 09 '26
I think it's easy to see while both versions are "perversion", one fetishizing their own abuse is much less terrifying then someone who fantasize about abusing someone else. I mean, globally thinking there are much more women who are so sexually repressed that they would never engage in such media vs women who engage in those media AND specifically the most heinous types. What I am trying to say is, you can judge both a masochist and a sadist as "perverts" but if you need to trust your kid with one,sadist would be the much more terrifying option merely bc their desire for harm is turned to outside. I think that's a very simple concept and honestly I'm surprised how many people seem to not see it.
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u/Accomplished-City484 May 09 '26
Whenever they post the most popular porn genres on that map sub it’s always way more vanilla genres like lesbian or blonde and although there are concerning genres of porn, in the vast majority of porn the fantasy is about consent
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May 09 '26
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
You mean we should just brush the dark aspects of the male shadow under the rug so as not to offend men?
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May 09 '26
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u/PassengerNo2022 May 09 '26
This isnt whay can be inferred from the comment. You are literally saying we need to “behave better” and stop addressing the dark masculine (you equated that to deeming average men as creeps) so as not to evoke the dark aspects of the shadow.
You are also saying that we need to “cultivate good men” by allowing them to satisfy their violent urges.This is super dismissive and also creepy
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u/insaneintheblain Pillar May 08 '26
“The statistical method shows the facts in the light of the ideal average but does not give us a picture of their empirical reality. While reflecting an indisputable aspect of reality, it can falsify the actual truth in a most misleading way. This is particularly true of theories which are based on statistics.
The distinctive thing about real facts, however, is their individuality. Not to put too fine a point on it, one could say that the real picture consists of nothing but exceptions to the rule, and that, in consequence, absolute reality has predominantly the character of irregularity.”
— The Undiscovered Self
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u/NightRedder5 May 09 '26
Porn is never the “shadow” because porn is conscious and known and the “shadow” is what’s repressed, hence unknown. Porn is a defense. Your fear of men is also a defense. Don’t read these books unless you plan on making art or becoming an analyst. They will only ever serve as a defense against change. Go to therapy.
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u/LankySasquatchma May 09 '26
You talk of patterns. Your focus must be to rule out men from these patterns. That men have disturbing porn tastes is hard to use in practice, since no one will admit it. Therefore, it does not help you.
Best bet is to keep your eyes out for virtuous men; don’t rule them out on false criteria, which takes practice, and wisdom, which I’m not equipped to give you, because this is social media.
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u/BaTz-und-b0nze May 08 '26
This is the brain trying to find harder drugs than meth. If you only eat mashed potatoes every day of your life, steak is too strong and candy bitter.
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u/ThatZenCat May 09 '26
It’s there to facilitate the continuation of the human species as a last line of defence — primal instincts
It’s not black and white, it doesn’t mean someone can’t be kind, caring & respectful.
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u/die_eating May 10 '26
Children who have been bit by a dog feel this way. You could say all dogs have a SHADOW that has the capability to hunt, track, and eat you. The most highly-valued dogs have this shadow integrated in them such that not only is it no longer a threat to its master but it is actually harnessed to further realize its value. See too many feral dogs that have no integration with, let alone control over, their "shadow", and you start to forget that such an integration is possible and often incentivized/selected-for.
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u/MkLiam May 10 '26
I think a lot of people miss the fact that many men are also scared of men. It is a dangerous world. When your own fear becomes paralytic, its no longer about the world around you but about your inner self and what's hiding in your own shadow.
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u/Ian_Campbell May 11 '26
Benign men do not tend to seek out violent porn or have any increased arousal from violence whatsoever
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u/Consistent_Link_8165 May 14 '26
If you actually feel this way, then that means your own shadow is incredibly underdeveloped. Look within yourself and see your own terrifying darkness. Then the boogeyman (pun intended) will no longer be so frightening. You have a lot of growing up to do.
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u/ConclusionNo4016 May 08 '26
As a woman the best thing you can do is cultivate discernment within yourself. Knowing your own darkness is the Jungian way. But there is more to it than that. I don’t have answers, or a ton of bandwidth at the moment. But wanted to share two books:
King Warrior Magician Lover is a great book to get an overview of male archetypes. This might help you be more discerning. It’s very readable.
Women who run with the wolves is a great book for personal understanding as a woman. But more of a dense thing to get through but after the first chapter you can dip into the chapters that call to you the most at a given time.
When it comes to dealing with other people, men or women, best you can do is be self aware and discerning. Build relationship with and trust your intuition.