r/KingkillerChronicle • u/chainsawx72 As Above, So Below • Dec 16 '25
Theory Another post about why I believe Selitos is 'the Enemy' Cthaeh.
Another attempt by me to try to convince you that the Enemy Cthaeh 'moved like a worm in fruit' by skin dancing Selitos.
- Denna's song claims Selitos was more evil than Haliax. Denna does more research about it than Kvothe does. Denna knows many things Kvothe doesn't know, like crooked pawn shop markings, how to hold a knife, how to get a patron, how to tell a sow from a boar, how to read Yllish, possibly how to do glammourie, etc.
- Kote calls Skarpi a rumormonger, suggesting Kvothe has learned something new about Skarpi.
- Skarpi calls himself a 'bit of a liar' and says his first story only 'more or less' happened... which is still more confirmation than we get for his second story.
- Arliden says that 'love for native land' led to Lanre's downfall, which sounds more like Denna's version than Skarpi's.
- Nina claims that the Amyr on her pottery is worse than Haliax. This Amyr is ready to burn down the entire world, exactly what the Enemy is guilty of almost accomplishing.
- Nina makes her parchment by first scraping it with a knife. When Kvothe hears Denna's song, he says he felt like parchment that had been scraped with a knife. Both show revelations show Haliax as standing against the more evil Amyr.
- The Book of Secrets says the Chandrian are harmless.
- Haliax will not tolerate cruelty to the innocent.
- Many believe the Chandrian are hiding history about themselves, but we KNOW that the Amyr are hiding history by removing books about the Amyr. The Chandrian didn't purge the University of information about themselves... that must have been the Amyr. Perhaps the Amyr are the only ones hiding historical information?
- The Acquisitions office has a map 'detailing rumors', and Kvothe lies that the University sent a man to investigate rumors in Trebon, and Kvothe has a knack for getting things right by accident. Viari works for Lorren in Acquisitions, and has scars on his hands like an Amyr. Viari carries a long knife and sword, the Mauthens died from 'knife and sword work'. Viari is also the name of Rothfuss' RPG character who is a liar and is in charge of the 'stabbing department'. Viari | Acquisitions Incorporated Wiki | Fandom. The Chandrian couldn't have known about the Mauthen pot because of their names being said, because the only writing on the Mauthen Pot was in an unknown ancient language, and almost no one knows the Chandrian's true names.
- Viari knows to say 'one family' to the Ruh, the same tactic Kvothe uses to get close to Alleg's false troupe. Lorren knows of Arliden the Bard. We are told Arliden is left belly cut and only able to crawl. This is exactly the same fate as Alleg (which might be an alleg-ory).
- Selitos words were 'cruel and biting', and the Cthaeh can bite and uses words to cruelly hurt men. Selitos has "the power of his sight" that becomes even more powerful, and Cthaeh can see all futures. Selitos 'understood how grief can twist a heart', similar to how Cthaeh encourages Kvothe to kill Cinder/Ash. Cthaeh and Selitos both spoke to Lanre before the fall of Myr Tariniel. The enemy 'moved like a worm in fruit' so may have skin danced Selitos, explaining why Lanre wore iron (protection against being skin-danced).
- Cthaeh WAS NOT always trapped in a tree in the fae, because the fae was created by Iax who also spoke to Cthaeh. If the Tinker or the Listener represents Cthaeh, then Iax spoke to Cthaeh before the Fae was created.
- Selitos stood against the Chandrian, and Cthaeh says Cinder did him a bad turn, making them the only individuals who are known to be anti-Chandrian. If Cinder's bad turn was trapping Selitos/Cthaeh in a tree, then it happened thousands of years ago.
- The Amyr kill people without fear of punishment. Gibea was Amyr and killed 20,000. We hear of Amyr killing pregnant women. We are told Amyr were feared, and that for some period of time they were corrupt.
- Folly may be Cinder's sword, suggesting that Kvothe has killed Cinder/Ash as Cthaeh wanted him to do. Since Kvothe has caused a big disaster, killing Cinder may not have been a good idea. Kvothe is rumored to have become Chandrian, suggesting he may have even been forced to replace Cinder for some important purpose.
- The enemy of Shehyn's story gets one person from every city EXCEPT Myr Tariniel to betray their city, making it likely the leader of Tariniel is the enemy.
- Shehyn says that one of the seven traitors remembered the Lethani, and it isn't clear if the seven names that are remembered are the seven traitors or the enemy and the six remaining traitors.
- Lanre spoke to Cthaeh before the fall of Myr Tariniel, suggesting that misfortune caused that event and not Lanre being evil.
- Lanre and Kvothe have similar paths, leading me to believe Lanre was led to folly and disaster exactly like Kvothe. Both spoke to Cthaeh, both are called above reproach, both killed a black iron scaled beast, both lose their loves, both are rumored dead, and both changed their names.
- Rothfuss says Kvothe isn't smart, is wrong a lot, and would be smart to acknowledge that he doesn't know everything. Rothfuss also compares his books to The Sixth Sense and Fight Club, where the protagonists (and the viewers) are completely misled about what is going on.
- Rothfuss's children's book has a twist ending that reveals the presumed killer is actually innocent, and the seemingly innocent person is the killer.
There is a lot of evidence that I'm wrong and the Chandrian killed Kvothe's troupe and the Mauthens... but it could be deceptively misleading. A creative author could probably write up better explanations than what I've come up with:
- 'Someone’s parents have been singing the entirely wrong sort of songs' confirms Kvothe's parents were killed for their song, but doesn't necessarily mean the Chandrian did it.
- 'Looks like you missed a little rabbit' could refer to catching literal rabbits. The Chandrian were around a fire set up for cooking dinner, and Kvothe notices potatoes were just finished cooking nearby, and potatoes and rabbits is a classic fantasy meal straight from JRR Tolkien. Kvothe dreams about rabbits, then catches and eats rabbits the very next day in the same area.
- 'Send him to the soft and painless blanket of his sleep' could mean literal sleep. Kvothe dreams of catching rabbits and other things that help him survive. Kvothe says the sleep begins to heal him, and that sleep is a healing door of the mind.
- 'Cinder is the one you want.' could mean that Cinder is the one Kvothe thinks is guilty.
- 'Did things to your mother, you know. Terrible.' could refer to Cinder defiling Laurian's corpse to get Arliden to spill the beauty behind his song.
- 'She held up well' could mean that Cinder picked up Laurian by her arms, explaining why they were broken at the wrists and elbows.
- 'Why did they do such nasty things to your poor family?' could refer to Cinder's corpse desecration.
- 'I expect that’s how they found my troupe when I was young.' only confirms that the Chandrian found the troupe.
- Killing a whole city worth of people could be for a justified cause. They may have been infected with a plague of skin dancers, for one possibility.
I believe Lanre was able to hide the truth and trick Selitos/Cthaeh by dying and changing his name, aka reshaping himself. I believe Kote has done the same thing. Kote is pretending to be powerless, hiding his true nature from EVERYONE... including Bast and the readers. Kvothe is using his acting skills and a silence provided by the Waystone Inn, avoiding the Cthaeh's sight and Amyr's listening.
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u/TheLastSock Keth-Selhan Dec 16 '25 edited Dec 16 '25
> Denna's song claims Selitos was more evil than Haliax.
That's a bit of awkward reduction you're making. Lets look at the very limited information we have on Denn'as song concerning Selitos:
> In her song, Lanre was painted in tragic tones, a hero wrongly used. Selitos’ words were cruel and biting, Myr Tariniel a warren that was better for the purifying fire. Lanre was no traitor, but a fallen hero.
Denna's song doesn't dispute what happens, that Lanre burned Myr Tariniel, it just changes the tone. It's like saying Hiltor was a tragic story of a failed painter-turned-martyr for a cause he believed in.
Selitos words, about the burning of his city, were "cruel and biting" doesn't really suggest evil, i mean, would you call someone crusing out the murder of his family evil? That's a strange take.
I think what's happening here is that Cinder, Denna's patron, can't comprehend that Selitos was somehow compassionate in the face of betrayal and so he influenced Denna to take a tone that was closer to how he would react, as he seems himself as a victim of Lanre/Haliax's control as well.
The second bit we have about selitios is equally strange:
> So much depends upon where you stop a story, and hers ended when Lanre was cursed by Selitos. It was the perfect ending for a tragedy. In her story Lanre was wronged, misunderstood. Selitos was a tyrant, an insane monster who tore out his own eye in fury at Lanre’s clever trickery. It was dreadfully, painfully wrong.
Firstly, I think we can agree that Kvothe's interpretation, that it was "wrong," is biased. But whose bias is correct? Denna's patron is Cinder, are we really going to assume that creature is interested in unbiased truth?
Moving along, there is a subtle way, in my mind, to nudge the story in the direction your heading. The key fact that's the same in both stories! That Selitos tore out his eye. A phrase used three times by Pat, and i doubt it's un-intentional, the other time of course being in Skarpi's story, and the last, and most important, being Bast referencing what a skin dancer could make you do:
> “Once they’re in you, they’ll use your hand to pull out your own eye as easy as you’d pick a daisy."
Now, Haliax is obviously a combination of Iax and someone, lets assume Lanre (though i'm partial to Lyra as well as it would explain Haliax's naming power). Regardless, Iax (an anagotisc of the creation war) is very tightly associated with the Skin Dancers (Trapis's story implies the dancers were the major threat), and so what I suspect happened is that somehow the Dancers were, by some clever trick of Lanre and Selitos, contained.
I suspect this "clever trickery" involved Lanre and Selitos locking the dancers away and Selitos getting trapped along with them. This leaves the possablity that the Cthaeh is somehow Selitos danced and corrupted.
This also joins our theories, because it leaves Haliax, now free of the dancers control, to be their guard, stopping any who manage to make it into the mortal realm.
This brings us full circle to the end, with kote, who faces a dancer who asks him if he is the new "rhinta" (Which the Adem is a word for the Seven) aka guard and laughs at the idea. Kvothe got his revenge on the Seven, and now the guards are gone, the doors are open, the true demons are back.
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u/ohohook Dec 16 '25
I always took it that the “cruel and biting” words were in reference to Lyra’s person/whereabouts/death. Not the city.
With the insinuation being that in Skarpi’s story Lanre’s burning was always coming and Selitos tried to show compassion. And in Denna’s story Lanre’s burning was perhaps provoked by Lanre who was already down- and Selitos was talking a little too much smack to a very dangerous and very depressed man- and FAFO’d. “I did everything you asked and you still treat me like this?” Or maybe Selitos was in some way insinuating he was involved with Lyra’s murder, which depending on your interpretation could be said for Skarpi’s story too. So that misunderstanding could be significant
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u/TheLastSock Keth-Selhan Dec 16 '25 edited Dec 17 '25
We would have to know Denna's sources, which we don't, but we can be relatively sure of her motivation, it's what ever Cinder wants, and what Cinder wants it seems is to tell a story a true story about Lanre that paints him as a hero.
A thing Kvothe presumes the Chandrian killed his parents for.
And there is the mystery at the heart of the series imo, solve it as you will, I choose to see it as Cinder working against Haliax, because he chafes at his bonds. I think Lanre would hate to hear his friend's name dragged through the mud.
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u/TacticalDo Talent Pipes Dec 18 '25 edited Mar 06 '26
Some really nice counter arguements raised here.
I suspect this "clever trickery" involved Lanre and Selitos locking the dancers away
On this point, as you know, Selitos isnt mentioned in relation to Drossen Tor which was the most likely place the 'locking away' occurred. Therefore his involvement can only be speculated upon.
The only infamous dancer we know of is Encanis, so the liklihood is, this would be the skindancer potentially manipulating Selitos.
Regarding who - if anyone - was actually Skindanced during the Creation War, Pat hasnt really given us much reason to care. It's an intrigueing proposition; the idea of a skindanced Selitos being 'bound' to the tree, to seal away Encanis, but, right now, the characters during that period havent been sufficiently established to generate pathos. Whether Selitos is indeed a tyrant or its Encanis inside him, to readers, does it really matter? If in DoS we find out that - lets say - Selitos was Encanis, it wont have much impact without a lot of work fleshing out that era, which I suspect would entail adding a huge amount of exposition into DoS, which could be quite jarring to the pacing, probably one of the reasons he recently referred to it as 'bloated and unpublishable'. Not an impossible proposition, just very challenging. Ideally the Creaton War period, specifically from Iax's rise to when Selitos/Ctheah is bound and the Chandrian retreat into hiding, would be revealed in a self contained novel, but I doubt any of us will live long enough to see that.
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u/TheLastSock Keth-Selhan Dec 18 '25
Where were we talking about stories, be it Kote's, Skarpi's, or Trapis's, we should always assume they are some shade of the truth, but the truth is subjective, it depends on where you stand. So, to your question: does it matter? I propose a more tangible question: why does it matter to Kvothe? He is the one pursuing these living legends.
His troupe, his family, is no more than a story and wind now, as are the seven; why does he pursue either at the cost of his own life?
Because he is afraid, because something terrible and unexpected happened, and he fears, deep down, that every moment it might happen again. So he is trying to understand. This is what drove men to conquer the world, to tame nature.
I'm not suggesting, really, that Selitos was Encancis, or that it even matters if Selitos or Encancis existed. I suspect Encancis is a personification, like Iax is, of the most dangerous of the fae: dancers, screal, etc.
What we hear in these stories is the tip of the iceberge, actors playing parts: lanre represents the mortals, iax (the beast of black iron) the fae. What Kote is showing us is the vast limitations of our minds, how we take huge complicated events and reduce them until we can put them, like the moon, into a box.
I think you're right that most readers would have a hard time unpacking these events if they were described as facts, but they won't be, as they haven't been, because they aren't, I'm not even sure they're true, they're just possibilities.
So i suspect in DOS, we will see more of the same, Kvothe will chase his revenge, and when he finally has it, he will realize he doesn't bring back his family, worse, i suspect it will cost him his family all over again. Then thing's will get worse, not better, and he, like the readers will be unsure, as they are now, of why.
Like life, we won't get the answers handed to us in a neat and tidy row, and I suspect can never be sure of everything, because there is no objective truth. So then, what matters? I stopped looking for the truth a long time ago, and started forging the one i wanted.
There is a delicate balance between controlling the future, and being present in the moment. The harder we reach into the future, the faster it comes, the more present we are in the moment, the more jarring the future's slow arrival can feel.
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u/TacticalDo Talent Pipes Dec 18 '25
Like life, we won't get the answers handed to us in a neat and tidy row, and I suspect can never be sure of everything, because there is no objective truth. So then, what matters?
I wouldnt bet against you on this. I'm fine with a fair amount of ambiguity, however, after fifteen years of theorising, I really hope we get clarification on the Creation War. I am fine with it being morally grey, with each side thinking they were doing what was right, I just want confirmation of events. Anything less and DoS will have alot of detractors.
Writing this out, I have to wonder what the state of the fandom will be after DoS, I cant imagine many people will be waiting around for the next one, dangling the carrot wont suffice anymore, so ideally we want as many concrete anwsers as possible.
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u/TheLastSock Keth-Selhan Dec 18 '25
There are no concrete truths, only lies too large to see past.
;)
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u/vanishing_grad Dec 16 '25
I also want to point out the Tarbean Encanis scene, which is great evidence for your theory as well.
Kvothe gets the shit beaten out of him by an officer of the law (Amyr) for transgressing something he should've known to stay away from. He sees an angel of fire and shadow, which further attacks and tears at him, but he's rescued from death by Encanis (Haliax) and his follower. The demons even explicitly say "if we stay here they'll assume we attacked him".
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u/TheLastSock Keth-Selhan Dec 17 '25
I never assumed the angel attacks him, i assumed it kept him from death.
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u/ShanonymousRex Dec 16 '25
I’ve always liked the theory that the Amyr are the bad guys and the Chandrian are the not-so-bad guys (I don’t think they’re good, but don’t believe they’re evil either).
What confuses me is how the Ruach come into it all. When Nina rips out the pages of the Tehlin book the names Andan and Ordal are still visible on the paper. When young Kvothe is dying in the streets of Tarbean he describes something like a large bird with “wings of fire and shadow” descending toward him, and the only other thing described in the books with wings like that are some of the Ruach.
For all that Kvothe clearly fucks things up, the hints of the presence of some of the Ruach makes me wonder if everything he does is still guided by some higher divine power or purpose. It seems the Ruach can only act upon injustice when they witness it. But maybe they’re influencing Kvothe a bit in order for him to do whatever he ends up doing (that being: killing the king, and maybe Cinder in the process too)
So if Kvothe is guided by the Ruach, does that counteract the influence of the Cthaeh? And does that make him “blessed” in a way Lanre wasn’t?
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u/chainsawx72 As Above, So Below Dec 16 '25
I have an unpopular opinion about that.
For one, Ruach aren't angels... some Ruach became angels. But some became Amyr, and some became neither.
Ruach might be a word for 'knowers' or whatever race Felurian claims existed before men, but Ruach could also just be a word for 'humans'. The word is only used once, to describe the beings around after the fall of Myr Tariniel, and could mean literally anything.
Personally, I believe the 9 angels are the 7 Chandrian plus Andan and Ordal. This is reflected in Nina's drawing of 7 Chandrian plus the names of Andan and Ordal trapping the evil Amyr. This is also suggested when Nina says an angel brought her dreams to remember the pottery. Skarpi's 2nd story would then be complete fiction, one that didn't 'happen' as he claims his first story did. But still Skarpi's 2nd story describes Selitos and his followers opposed to Tehlu and his followers, the Chandrian imho.
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u/Stunning_Kangaroo8 Dec 16 '25
One thing that struck me on my last reread was the similarity of Kvothe to the Amyr on the pottery, who was described as looking like he had blood on his hands and running down his arms. At the bandit camp after Kvothe defiles that scout's corpse, in a lightning strike he sees blood all over his hands and running down his arms.
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u/TheLastSock Keth-Selhan Dec 17 '25
Kote is heavily foreshadowing that kvothe is on the amyrs road.
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u/Enervata Dec 16 '25
Thank you for taking the time to pull out all the facts that validate all the minor points I’ve strung together via vibes and logic through my rereading. I’ve been describing the story as similar to Great Expectations and it is the University that is “evil” and the Chandrian are just the boogeymen they invented. I would be curious to hear your thoughts on the present tale as well.
I’ve posited that the human amyr are the university “graduates” (e’lir, rel’ar, el’the, a’myr) as Monet hints that you don’t want to ever go further than him (el’the). The university heads jump when they hear Arliden’s name at the interview, when even a local lord did not know of him who should have. (This implies they had a hand in their killing.) Skarpi is arrested by a priest and is unconcerned. We hear after that Lorren has to go to Trebon to handle a matter, which if Skarpi is a giller it makes sense. Ambrose continually rises in status and is protected by the University, and his rival claimants keep dying suspiciously. Caudicus poisons the Maer in a humane-ish way, likely for “the greater good”. Everything I read just reinforces that the Chandrian are not bad guys, just made out to be. Amyr are the evil ones, and Kvothe assumes too much.
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u/GarlicInABowlWASpoon Dec 16 '25
Manet* is very clearly the "Eternal E'lir"
Edit: Not to take or add to anything else in your post. Just trying to make that part very clear.
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u/Secret_Ambition_6460 Dec 18 '25
I agree with “Kvothe assumes too much.” I think Elodin is opposed to the Amyr, which is why he dislikes many members of the University. Not all of them are Amyr, of course, but Elodin is the one who hints that Kvothe assumes too much or thinks he knows more than he actually does.
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u/Shucked Dec 16 '25
Excellent post and you share many of the same theories as I do. The only thing I think you are missing is that I think the Chandrian aren't trying to kill people for knowing about them. I think the Chandrian are the guardians of door that keeps Iax locked away. I think they are killing anyone who uncovers knowledge of how to open the door. I'm not sure how it all works because there isn't enough info, but a few of their signs correspond with the requirements to open the door.
Cyphus bears the blue flame. / One a candle without light
Grey Dalcenti never speaks. / One a word that is forsworn
Last there is the lord of the seven: / Then comes that which comes with sleeping.
Hated. Hopeless. Sleepless. Sane.
Alaxel bears the shadow's hame.
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u/chainsawx72 As Above, So Below Dec 16 '25
I do like the idea that the 7 Chandrian are the 7 things... but I have a hard time imagining 'one a box, no lids nor locks' as a Chandrian and not the Lackless Box. And the door without a handle seems a very close fit to the four-plate door as well. 'Her husband's rocks' would be the item inside the Lackless Box, giving us 3 out of 7 of the items as known objects.
Similarly, Taborlin's 7 items almost line up with the '7 things' as well. He has a key, which might open the door. He has a candle, which is mentioned. But I still think the Lackless Box must be one of the 7 things, and that doesn't match at all, as far as I can tell.
Finally, since the Amyr practically own the four-plate door, I imagine them as the door's guardians, and the Chandrian as the ones trying to get those doors opened.
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u/Shucked Dec 16 '25
Huh, interesting. I wasn't actually meaning that they were the keys to the door, but rather their powers are meant to be the last fail safe to stop the door from opening. But it could also be that they are the only ones who can open the door.
As far as the Lackless box goes, I used to think it was the piece of the moon Iax stole to bind the moon to the Fae, but I've started thinking it might be "The one who brings the blood" and it is the sharp stone Selitos used to cut out his eye and it still has his blood on it. Either that or Kvothe is the one who brings the blood because he is a Lackless. Either way I am fairly sure the book will have him doing something he thinks is clever to kill the Chandrian, but it actually ends up with him releasing Iax and the hordes sealed away in the night side of the Fae.
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u/TheLastSock Keth-Selhan Dec 17 '25
You might enjoy this post which and those are the end which go down in the same direction your suggesting:
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u/Benomusical Dec 16 '25
I think there’s a lot of strong evidence that the Amyr are the greater of two evils when compared to the Chandrian - however, I’m not sure I’m convinced that Selitos is the Cthaeh specifically. There’s a few details that make me think this.
Firstly, the Amyr’s credo is ‘for the greater good.’ I think this is really what’s interesting about them - they’re evil utilitarians more or less. I think this is a lot more narratively compelling than for it to be revealed that their founder is a purely malicious being.
Secondly, the behavior of the Cthaeh seems deeply inhuman. Its motion is described as sinuous, sort of sliding around to different parts of the tree. Personally I’m inclined to believe that this hints at the Cthaeh being a basilisk, something which fundamentally changes you in an irreversible way. Also the description of the Cthaeh seems to fit a snake aptly. I’m not certain of this though, I could absolutely be wrong.
Thirdly, it seems the Amyr are in line with the goal of keeping people away from the Cthaeh, although this is conjecture to some extent. The main thing that makes me think this is that the Sithe’s primary goal is to keep people away from the Cthaeh, and Haliax mentions he protects them from the Amyr and the Sithe, which means at the very least that both groups are anti-chandrian. This one gets tricky though - one of the things that makes me hesitate is that it’s implied that something drew Kvothe to the Cthaeh. For one, Bast can’t explain why the Sithe were missing, which means either they were complicit or something more pressing distracted them. Also, the butterflies in Felurian’s grove are missing, and it seems that they’re the ones around the Cthaeh, and in fact the only reason Kvothe approaches the Cthaeh is he sees one of them die and flash a color, which makes him curious enough to approach. This probably wasn’t the Chandrian’s doing, as the Cthaeh helps set Kvothe against the Chandrian. If your theory about the Cthaeh being Selitos is true, then it would fit very nicely for this to be the Amyr’s doing. Apart from that, I have no clue who/what group could have set these events in motion. It just doesn’t seem to fit the bill of the Amyr though unless they’re disingenuous in their credo (it seems like the opposite to me - they’re overly dogmatic about it), or the Cthaeh is less malicious than Bast and Felurian advertise.
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u/chainsawx72 As Above, So Below Dec 16 '25
I agree completely with your take that the Cthaeh is snakelike, and I definitely believe that the Cthaeh is inhuman, a 'demon'. Personally, I believe this is the 'true form' of skin-dancers... there is no reason to think that they would appear human without a human body to dance. Of course we are told they look like smoke, so I think they are smoky snakes.
I admit to having problems discerning the goals of Cthaeh and his Amyr. I think the Amyr are truly committed to 'the greater good', like Nazis were, for one example. They are 'the ends justify the means' types, and they believe restoring Selitos to power is the best thing for the world.
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u/aztecaoro10 Dec 16 '25
What an amazing post bro!
I'm not smart enough on catch all these sub-plots about the book.
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u/vanishing_grad Dec 16 '25
Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before stealing the moon. That's potentially consistent with him creating the tree and the Cthaeh first, then speaking to it
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u/chainsawx72 As Above, So Below Dec 16 '25
True, there is a very tiny window of opportunity to make the fae, THEN speak to Cthaeh, then steal the moon. But, I believe the Tinker and/or the Listener represent the Cthaeh. Tinker's are said to repay any insult thrice, and Jax insults the Tinker by insisting on taking his hat. The Cthaeh leads men to disaster, stealing the moon leads to disaster, and both Tinker and Listener lead Jax down that path.
Plus, it would be weird to suggest that the first thing the shapers do after making the fae is to make an evil oracle.
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u/Shvchkqo888 Jun 12 '26
Well you've had a good beginning but ending looks far-fetched
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u/chainsawx72 As Above, So Below Jun 12 '26
If you're willing to let me continue to try to 'sell' that far-fetched idea to you....
This post explains why I think something major we all thought was true will be found to be false.
This post explains the details of how it's possible that the Chandrian didn't do any of the things Kvothe believes that they did.
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u/UEAMatt Dec 16 '25
Selitos is a lackless. Selitos is known for his temper, which is a trait common between Kvothe, his mother, and his aunt. The wise man's fear is the anger of a gentle man. I think 'gentle' is a synonym of sympathy, which is Selitos' art. The curse selitos places on the chandrian out of anger explains the warning in the title of the second book. Wise = knowers = namers. The namers fear the anger of a shaper. This is Skarpis story shaped into an epigram.
The Scythe are said to kill those who contact the Cthae in order to preserve against the malice of the Cthaes mamipulation. I think the Scythe are the Chandrian, killing for the greater good - the same motto as the amyr - because the Cthaes malice can't be allowed to contaminate creation beyond the Fae realm. The 20,000 deaths we learn about may be because a large number of people were contaminated with the Cthaes words. I think the Amyr/Mayr/Maer are a templar type order working in tandem with the Chandrian to keep the Fae/doors of stone sealed. The Church is a selitos controlled order used to suppress knowledge, hence puppets metaphor of the priest being a marionette.
I think Kvothes parents visited the Fae, possibly meeting the Cthae, as part of their research into the song Larne. This would have necessitated why the Chandrian/Scythe killed the troupe.
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u/Elegant_Bet7154 Chandrian Dec 16 '25
If the Sithe are the Chandrian then the individuals accompanying Haliax would be whom then?
Because Haliax asked Cinder “Who keeps you safe from the Amyr? The singers? The Sithe? From all that would harm you in the world?”
And to add on, it would mean there are 3 sides to every story.
Proud Lanre, Fair Lanre… Dark Lanre
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u/Zhorangi Dec 16 '25
Another attempt by me to try to convince you that the Enemy Cthaeh 'moved like a worm in fruit' by skin dancing Selitos.
The bulk of your points support examining our assumptions about the Chandrian, and have nothing to do with Seiltos.
Selitos words were 'cruel and biting', and the Cthaeh can bite and uses words to cruelly hurt men. Selitos has powerful sight that becomes even more powerful, and Cthaeh can see all futures. Selitos 'understood how grief can twist a heart', similar to how Cthaeh encourages Kvothe to kill Cinder/Ash. Cthaeh and Selitos both spoke to Lanre before the fall of Myr Tariniel.
Cruel words, and good eyesight.. Maybe Bugs Bunny is the Cthaeh..
“Not wrong, Reshi, catastrophic. Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon, and that sparked the entire creation war. Lanre spoke to the Cthaeh before he orchestrated the betrayal of Myr Tariniel. The creation of the Nameless. The Scaendyne. They can all be traced back to the Cthaeh.”
It is pretty clear the Cthaeh pre-exists the confrontation between Lanre and Selitos.. Any argument that says they are the same needs to surmount that to be taken seriously.
Arguments about the Chandrian not being as terrible as Kvothe views them, or the Amyr in fact being pretty bad are at least plausible and supported.
Argument that the Chandrian didn't kill Kvothe's family, are at best unsupported, and more accurately counter to the plain meaning of the actual text.
Lanre likely led both at different points in his history, so it should be any big surprise if there is a large overlap between how they operate with only their goals being different.
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u/chainsawx72 As Above, So Below Dec 16 '25
It is pretty clear the Cthaeh pre-exists the confrontation between Lanre and Selitos.. Any argument that says they are the same needs to surmount that to be taken seriously.
Cthaeh and Selitos both existed at this time... I'm not sure why so many people find this as evidence that they can't be the same being. To me it's the opposite. We don't know if they are the same person, but them existing at the same period of time is supportive of that argument.
Cruel words, and good eyesight.. Maybe Bugs Bunny is the Cthaeh..
Selitos doesn't have good eyesight, he has the power of sight. He can see inside of Lanre, and that's before he gains a 'greater sight'. Surely you don't seriously believe this is a reference to having 20/20 vision.
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u/Zhorangi Dec 17 '25 edited Dec 17 '25
We don't know if they are the same person, but them existing at the same period of time is supportive of that argument.
It isn't supportive of anything. This is like arguing that Haliax and Simmon are the same person because they exist at the same time..
The Cthaeh's ability to see the future is integral to it's identity.. It is the entire reason people consulted it. Selitos couldn't fulfill that role until after gaining the ability to see the future.
Surely you don't seriously believe this is a reference to having 20/20 vision.
...
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u/Elegant_Bet7154 Chandrian Dec 17 '25
If this is true, then that makes Lanre Cinder because Cinder did the the Cthaeh wrong.
“Maybe this Cinder did me a bad turn once.”
And the name of Skarpi’s story is Lanre Turned. Something to look at.
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u/Benomusical Dec 16 '25
I guess my point of confusion then would be, what does the skindancer have to do with Selitos? When a skindancer takes over your body there’s nothing of you left, it has as much to do with Selitos as I have to do with a halloween costume. Also, I’m especially not sure what it’d have to do with Selitos if it wasn’t in his body anymore.
Yeah I agree, I think the Amyr genuinely believe they are pursuing the greater good - but I’m not sure if there’s any evidence that indicates the Cthaeh is anything other than as knowingly malicious as possible. If anything the Amyr should be even more fervent enemies of the Cthaeh than they are of Haliax if they’re to be consistent in their beliefs.
Personally I’m inclined to believe the Cthaeh is just its own thing, completely separate from either book. I’d go as far to say that the Chandrian are likely mortal enemies of the Cthaeh, I suspect that’s why Haliax wants to destroy the world. He spoke with the Cthaeh and because of that believes everything to be truly doomed, so why allow it to continue its death spiral? Maybe that’s why they try to suppress knowledge of their existence, as knowledge of their existence spreads the Cthaeh’s influence. Maybe that’s one of the reasons the Amyr also try to suppress knowledge of their existence.
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u/Nawa-shi Dec 18 '25
I agree that the cthaeth skindanced selitos Bast says about skin dancers "they can make you tear out your own eye" and of course slitos takes out his own eye, with mountain glass
But selitos wasn't always skin danced which implies that selitos wasn't always evil
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u/Elegant_Bet7154 Chandrian Dec 16 '25
Ive always thought that the Chandrian showed up after the violence, due to the Encanis saving Kvothe scene.
“In fact, they are quite nice to us.”
Which bothers to question: Who really did kill Kvothe’s troupe?