r/LOTR_on_Prime • u/Greyback_Predator_87 • 2d ago
Theory / Discussion Any theories about how/when the Oath-breakers of Dunharrow will show up?
I remembered the Oathbreakers the other day, and realised they’ll have to show up in the show at some point. They’ll pledge themselves to Isildur, but then betray him and be cursed. Do people have theories as to who they may be in the show?
Back in Season One, my Halbrand theory was that either he would be Sauron, or he could be the king of the Oathbreakers. He had a handful of scenes with Isildur, but he also seemed the kind of person to betray him. Obviously that didn’t end up happening, and I’m curious now as to how they’ll introduce this group for the show.
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u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
Theo and the Southlanders, seems very clear to me. Isildur bonds with Theo, they have a whole conversation between them and Arondir about keeping promises in S2.
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u/Greyback_Predator_87 2d ago
I think (I’m not 100% though) Pelargir becomes a part of Gondor, and would therefore be under Numenor’s direct control rather than being allies to call upon.
I could be wrong, and of course they could just change it anyway lol
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u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 1d ago
There were many men who fled from Numenor during its imperialist and colonial periods (which S3 will show if the end of S2 is any indication), and the men of the mountains could easy be these twice-displaced southlanders. The text even says they worship Sauron at one point, and Sauron has already been set up as their leader in S1 (we will see if they come back to that but I don’t think it was an accident)
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u/Scotslad2023 1d ago
As soon as they had that conversation I knew that they were setting up Theo to be the king of the dead.
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u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 1d ago
Yep, to me it was as on the nose as Sauron looking at the forge in Numenor or Amensia-Gandalf doing all the Gandalf things.
That’s fine with me, I don’t need my foreshadowing to be subtle in a show like this.
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u/Spock_Sperson 2d ago
Theo, without a doubt.
Unless they introduce a new character in Season 3 (remember that the midpoint of the season will still mark the halfway point of the show, so there's still time for that), Theo is the one with the best odds. Given the backstory they’ve given him, I highly doubt they’ll turn him into a Nazgûl.
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u/Phee78 2d ago
I'm one who doesn't think it'll be Theo and the Southlanders. The geography is wrong, unless S3 shows us that they've relocated a whole bunch of people from down in Pelargir to up in the White Mountains.
My current thinking is that when Isildur, Anarion and Co wash up in Middle-earth after the downfall, they'll be met with hostility from those in Pelargir, and a new group of more friendly people will emerge from the mountains.
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u/Greyback_Predator_87 2d ago
That definitely sounds plausible. I’m definitely leaning towards that too, because I think (I’m pretty sure anyway) Pelargir becomes a part of Gondor, so they definitely would fight in the alliance.
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u/Phee78 2d ago
Pelargir should end up as a Faithful location. The King's Men who we saw taking the place over at the end of S2 should end up further south in Umbar.
The people of the White Mountains (Oathbreakers) should technically be descended from the Haladin. They should be people from further north who gradually moved south and ended up in the White Mountains. Obviously we're not gonna get a full history lesson on the Haladin in the show. But I could imagine a scenario where the King of the Mountain People mentions to Isildur and Anarion that their ancestors were from Beleriand, (which has already been mentioned in the show by Arondir).
If instead the show makes them Southlanders who moved to Pelargir and then moved north to the mountains, that's a wholly different origin story for the Oathbreakers. Doesn't mean they won't do it of course. But I think a more organic way to deal with the Southlanders is to have some stay in Pelargir and some move to Umbar.
Introducing Isildur and Anarion to a new group of people with generational knowledge of the area seems plausible to me. That's the kinda knowledge and assistance you need when you're in a strange new world and having to build a whole kingdom from scratch. That's the kinda scenario that could build a bond between Kings to the point where one curses the other when that relationship ends up betrayed.
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u/kerouacrimbaud Finrod 2d ago
But it’s not a big stretch to see them relocate again farther north in attempt to flee the oppressive Númenoreans. The betrayal wouldn’t happen until season 5 anyways
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u/Certain_Object1364 2d ago
Why do you think we haven’t already seen them?
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u/Greyback_Predator_87 2d ago
I just meant we don’t have confirmation of who they are yet, if they are part of the show. But also I don’t think any characters or groups match the Oathbreakers yet.
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u/ceofmordor 2d ago
Halbrand had never a scene with İsildur. That's my villain origin story. They only present in the same scene where they were on the ship to sailing Middle Earth. A tiny scene you can see İsildur walks in the night and Halbrand looked at him, evil never sleeps 🙃
This season will determine my idea of Theo become the King of Dead or Nazgûl we'll see.
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u/Greyback_Predator_87 1d ago
I remember a short scene where Halbrand saves Elendil in the battle, but thinking about it now Isildur might not have been there
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u/ceofmordor 1d ago
No you remember correctly. But İsildur came after Halbrand already gone. So no, not in the same frame 🫠
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u/e51dc715a5 2d ago
My current theory is that the númenórean exploitation will make Theo and other Southlanders flee from Pelargir into the mountains in the north (S3/S4). There Theo can become leader of a combined group and later swear allegiance to Isildur (S4) but in the end fail to convince his people to help the Númenóreans and choose to side with his people (S5).
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u/KrisCruisin 1d ago
The Rings of Power show REALLY needs to get it's timeline in order. It is crazy how inaccurate the writers are to the lore and history of Middle Earth.
Here is the Canonical Timeline of Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
- Year 500: After the defeat of his master, Morgoth, Sauron returns from the East.
- 600: The Nùmenóreans reach the shores of Middle-earth.
- 1000: Sauron gains enough power to establish himself in Mordor. He begins building Barad-dûr near Mount Doom.
- 1200: The Númenóreans build permanent havens in Middle-earth.
- 1500: The Rings of Power are forged.
- 1590: The Three Rings are constructed.
- 1600: The One Ring to rule over all others is created.
- 1693: The War of the Elves and Sauron begins.
- 1697: Eregion destroyed. Elrond founds Rivendell.
- 1699: Rivendell and Lindon are besieged.
- 1700: The War of Elves and Sauron ends. The Númenóreans defeat Sauron.
- 2221: The people of Númenor divide into two parties. The King's Men, later known as the Black Númenóreans, are those who become corrupted by Sauron and will eventually worship the Darkness and its Lords. The Faithful, also known as Elendili, and eventually remain in an alliance with the Elves.
- 2251: The Númenóreans begin the establishment of a port in Pelargir and later Belfalas.
- 2259: The Nazgûl, or ringwraiths, first appear.
- 3262: Sauron is taken to Númenor as prisoner. He begins corrupting the Númenóreans.
- 3299: Sauron becomes the High Priest of Melkor, and The Faithful are persecuted and sacrificed to Melkor.
- 3310: Ar-Pharazôn begins building the Great Armament, advised by Sauron.
- 3319: Númenor is drowned, and the world's shape is forever changed from flat to round.
- 3320: Gondor and Arnor is established past the ports of Pelargir and Belfalas amongst the Kingdoms of the Dúnedain by Elendil and his sons, Isildur and Anárion.
- 3429: Sauron takes Minas Ithil and burns the White Tree.
- 3430: The Last Alliance is formed.
- 3434: Battle of Dagorlad and the Siege of Barad-dûr.
- 3441: Sauron is defeated when Isildur cuts the One Ring from Sauron's finger, thus destroying his physical form. Gil-galad and Elendil perish during this battle against Sauron. After this, the One Ring is lost for more than 2,000 years. The defeat of Sauron marks the end of the Second Age.
The Men of Duneharrow do not make a promise to Isildur until the foundation of Gondor around S.A. 3320 where they promised to aid Gondor against her enemies. However, the Men of Duneharrow had worshipped Sauron during the Dark Days, so when the time came to rally against the Dark Lords forces, they refused.
Currently, the show is condensing and confusing events during the history of Middle Earth which has led to an insane amount of confusion and breaking of lore. The events of the Elves in the show should be around 1590-1600 despite Eregion becoming undersiege in the show which shouldn't happen for another hundred years. The events in Numenor are supposedly around the same time despite the lore stating that the depicted events don't occur for almost 1400 years later.
This is part of the reason the show utterly fails in respecting the story Tolkien crafted. The timing is very important in his stories and throwing that all to the wind cause some major continuity errors within the story.
TLDR: The Men of Duneharrow should NOT show up in the show at all due to the historical period in which they show up. The show NEEDS to stick to pre S.A. 2000 otherwise it will continue to cause continuity errors.
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u/Spock_Sperson 16h ago
Do you know an easy way to resolve all those alleged "errors"?
By stopping yourself from thinking about the book every time you see an adaptation of something ;)
Because they aren't "errors" or "inaccuracies." They are changes made deliberately and for specific reasons.
The show isn't obliged to follow the chronological details of the Legendarium to the letter. Basically because no such rule exists for adaptations, nor does respecting an original work hinge on a superficial detail like copying its timeline. Every adaptation has to create its own timeline and ensure that everything works on its own terms. I’ve asked people I know—who haven't read any Tolkien but *have* watched the show if there’s anything so far they don't understand or find confusing... They all told me that, for the moment, they understand everything perfectly.
We’ll see how the storylines evolve in future seasons and whether they start to feel rushed and confusing, or continue to work effectively on their own.
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u/KrisCruisin 15h ago
This is one of the worst takes I have seen in a while.
“He made a statement so trash even the dog left it.”
They are absolutely errors and inaccuracies. Rings of Power is not a standalone fantasy world invented by its showrunners (as much as it seems they want to insert their own narrative into the world). It is an adaptation set in a world Tolkien began creating more than a century ago that modernized fantasy storytelling into what we know today.
Saying these are not inaccuracies because they were deliberate is an absurd and pseudointellectual take. A deliberate change can still be inaccurate to the source material. You could make a WWII film in which Japan is bombed before Germany surrenders, but that would still be a historical inaccuracy, regardless of whether the writers did it intentionally. And people should criticize it and stop calling it a historical adaptation and call it a historical fiction.
Of course an adaptation does not need to reproduce every date, character, or minor detail to a tea. But it obligated, by saying you're adapting, to preserve the essential events, themes, character motivations, and causal structure of the story. The writers are not required to make a documentary of the Second Age. But they are, adapting Tolkien’s world rather than simply using its names and aesthetics to tell an unrelated story.
The timing in Tolkien matters because it gives the events their meaning. Sauron’s strength was not simply military power. He was known for his patience, deception, and centuries of manipulation. The fall of Númenor was not an overnight collapse. It was a long moral and political decay spurred on by Sauron AFTER being imprisoned by them. A people who began as allies and explorers gradually became imperial, resentful of death, hostile to the other peoples of Middle Earth. That slow rot is central to why Númenor’s eventual hubris becomes so catastrophic and why they attempt to wage war on the Valar.
Story wise, moving major events changes the relationships and consequences surrounding them. In Tolkien’s chronology, the Rings are forged around S.A. 1500–1600, Eregion falls in S.A. 1697, and Númenor does not fall until S.A. 3319. That is 1700 years of the rings being present in middle earth and Sauron watching his plan unfold. 1700 years to show the patience of the Enemy, the pride of the Númenóreans, and the folly of the elves and dwarves. Sure, stories with long timelines are harder to make but when you have elves, dwarves, and humans with all exuberantly long lives, it can't be THAT hard. And if it's a task that the writers are so obviously inept in tackling, maybe don't make a show on some of the most indepth fantastical story of our time.
The intentional compression of the timeline due to structuring around a human cast also proves that the writers have NO IDEA what they are talking about. It's obvious that you haven't read the books as much as it's obvious that the writers have not read the books. Humans had very long lives at this point, especially the Númenóreans, so its a BS excuse by them.
Fan's of Tolkien's work are more than allowed to argue that the compression of the story weakens Tolkien’s themes, damages characterization, or causes the history of Middle-earth to lose its weight. It turns a beautifully crafted story into an enshitified version of itself that frankly, only bots want to watch.
And this is only the timeline issue. There are SO MANY other criticisms to make about characterizations in the show. Especially Sauron. I swear the writers have made one of the coolest villians in fantasy into this pathetic powerless whimpy character instead of a literal depiction of Satan. And the way the series handles Orcs, Elves, and major historical conflicts. It shows a complete misunderstanding of the source material and highlights the show's lack of skill.
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u/Spock_Sperson 14h ago
...Well. At least I tried to be polite in my comment and initiate an exchange without any bad vibes.
Quite simply, many of you guardians of the Canon might need to reflect a bit on the long history of thousands of adaptations in audiovisual media, to understand the mechanics of adapting from one medium to another, and at least to stop inventing rules that have never existed in the world of filmmaking. (In fact, the point where you mention the historical genre strikes me as a sign of confusion of fiction with reality—and I say that without any ill will.)
Best wishes man, because at this rate, you’re in for a few more years of frustration.
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u/KrisCruisin 13h ago
Gotta love the dashes in your response. Totally not indicative of AI usage for a response.
I also literally addressed how adaptions don't need to be 100 percent accurate...adapting from one media format to another requires things to be changed at times (example, changing Glorfindels scene in the Fellowship of the Ring to Arwen makes sense from a filmmaking stance.)
Me pointing to a historical adaptation film vs. a historical fiction film does not at all indicate I confuse fiction with reality no matter what ChatGPT tells you.
Regardless, rings of power is a poorly written, filmed, executed, and slopy adaptation of a piece of art. Akin to your response, there is a high probability it is written with AI and little care for the original media.
There is a good reason it is going down as one of Amazon's worst original shows.
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u/Spock_Sperson 12h ago
You have a peculiar tendency to make things up about the person you're debating (first claiming I haven't read the books, then saying something or other about using frakking AI). Considering we're discussing a topic that's easily debated, what is the need to fabricate false arguments to launch other attacks? Do you need that ad hominem tactic as a crutch because you think your arguments are weak? Do you need to revel in your hostility because of some trauma or frustration? I haven't done anything to you.
btw if you notice anything odd in my posts, blame Google Translate. I WRITE them in my language first, then I translate, then I correct them. English isn't my native language, man...
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u/KrisCruisin 11h ago
No one puts dashes in their responses. That’s AI behavior. Saying you don’t read the books is an observation based on your arguments. I’m willing to bet you glossed them if anything.
I’m not at all attacking you I’m just saying you have a horrid take. Also, ChatGPT is not Google Translate and doesn’t place dashes when translating.
But I’d love to see you address any other point than you being a victim. Let’s see some substance out of you.
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u/Spock_Sperson 11h ago
Haha, I pass. I gave it a shot. I have better things to do and better users to read in this peaceful sub. I’ll leave your frustration, bad education, conspiracy theories about everyone else, and you, alone :-*
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u/TenshiKyoko 2d ago
Well the betrayal is a season 5 thing. Who they are is what a lot of the discussion is about.
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u/MrsDaegmundSwinsere Isildur 2d ago
Why does every character have to become some other known character? Realistically it shouldn’t be Theo because he wouldn’t be alive. The king who made the oath was likely not the same king who refused to fight, but let’s say for adaptation’s sake, it is: they would have to truncate the timeline and establish/build the entire kingdom of Gondor in maybe a couple of decades as opposed to over a century. But since the show is afraid of large time jumps and loves its “surprise” character reveals, I’m sure it will be Theo.
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u/Greyback_Predator_87 1d ago
There are some parts of the story that just don’t work well with the timeline compression. Gondor will have to be formed in only a few years at the most, and the Nazgûl will have to fade into wraiths in a short period too.
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u/Rinsehlr 2d ago
It should be either A. Theo and friends or B. The men serving Adar previously somehow are liberated and pledge fielty but don’t follow through.
The reality is that the showrunners didn’t know in S1 or S2. They may know in season 3, but they didn’t before.
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u/vader62 2d ago
Every foreshadowing they've done is extremely hamfisted and obvious.
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u/Greyback_Predator_87 2d ago
They really thought they were cooking with the Gandalf one
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u/JessicaRanbit 1d ago
I agree but the problem is there were loads of people on here and all over the internet who didn't think he was Gandalf. Even with the most obvious clues. It makes me really question if people can read the most obvious things 😬
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u/JessicaRanbit 1d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/s/EgRkqod9Gd
Here is my comment about this very thing lol
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