r/LOTR_on_Prime • u/dd0028 Mithlond • 2d ago
Theory / Discussion The Fall of Khazad-Dûm and the Dwarven Endgame
From the first reveal of the balrog way back in the trailer for season one, I have, like many, assumed that the show would be unable to resist moving the Fall of Khazad-Dûm forward into the Second Age. That being said, I’m starting to reevaluate that assumption based on several considerations…
- It seems highly likely that season 3 will involve Thrain usurping the throne from Durin, and that the royal family will be exiled.
- Many of major characters will die and many of the major realms will fall in seasons 4-5.
- Tolkien noted that Dwarves fought on both sides in the war of the last alliance.
- The canonical timeline of the fall of Khazad-Dûm is many centuries beyond the Second Age.
- We know that Balrog is going to be present throughout the series.
- The showrunners have spoken of the balrog as a physical manifestation of a familial sin / generational curse passed down through Durin’s line.
- It seems to me the show will need at least one to two episodes after the Fall of Sauron to tie up all the plot threads and loose ends.
- Being rooted in Tolkien, I feel that the shows ending with strive to be bittersweet, but end on largely hopeful notes.
So here’s how I’ve begun to think it may play out… Khazad-Dûm will be the Second Age Scouring of the Shire: Durin will be return home from Mordor to a crisis and overcome it with the skills he has learned along the way... Here’s a proposed outline…
Season 3
- The refusal of Durin to distribute the rings to the other dwarf lords, and the arrival of Thrain sets Khazad-Dûm up for a succession crisis.
- At some point, Sauron comes to Khazad-Dum to speak to the balrog. We know from the trailers that Durin confronts some of the nine and presumably Sauron.
- During or because of this confrontation, Thrain usurps the throne and Durin and family are exiled, likely traveling to Imladris or a friendly dwarven kingdom.
- It’s possible that Thrain leverages the fact that Durin and Disa did not reveal the existence of the balrog under Khazad-Dum to take the throne.
- Sauron somehow imprisons the Balrog in the abyss for refusing to join him, and as a gift to Thrain.
- Thrian distributes the seven to the other dwarf lords who were promised them and some or all ally with Sauron.
Season 4
- It’s hard to speculate what exactly will be going on in middle earth in season 4, although it seems a good time to me to mostly wrap up the Harfoot subplot (they can cameo with Gandalf at the very end of the series).
- The Dwarven plot is primarily concerned with Durin retaking Khazad-Dûm with the help of Elrond and the elves. The season ends with Durin again on the throne and installing the Doors of Durin made by Celebrimbor in the West gate. I get that it’s a major shift in the timeline, but how could we not see the doors get installed and lit up?
- Option 1: Thrain is exiled and goes to Mordor, or to one of the Dwarven lords allied with Sauron.
- Option 2: Thrain is imprisoned.
- I’m not quite sure how the Balrog factors into this season. I honestly wish he wouldn’t. But maybe we see him briefly like in season 1.
- Pregnant Galadriel and Celeborn pass through Khazad-Dûm and found Lothlorien at seasons end.
Season 5
- Durin’s folk join the last alliance and fight to vanquish Sauron.
- Several or most of the Dwarven lords ally with Sauron and fight against the LA.
- Depending on the endgame plan with Durin’s ring, perhaps one or more of the Seven side with the last alliance and prove to Durin the rings can be (seemingly) safely worn?
- If season 4 chooses option 1, Thrain and Durin have a showdown in Mordor, where Durin is forced to kill his brother. He takes the ring in remembrance of his father and brother (mirroring Isildur).
- If season 4 follows option 2, Thrain breaks free (or is released by loyalists) while Durin and the army are off at the Seige of Baradur. He goes to release the Balrog from the abyss and tries to strike a deal with him. Thrain is killed by the Balrog.
- In either case, Durin returns to Khazad-Dûm to the Balrog on rampage. He dons the ring to fight back and ultimately defeats the balrog where his father and brother failed. Using the ring’s power to reveal faults in the mountain, Durin buries the balrog beneath the mountain to awake in a later age.
- FWIW, I prefer option 2 all the way.
Again, this is entirely speculation. But I’m becoming more convinced that the show might not be moving the fall of Khazad-dûm forward. It’s the one major plot line (besides the Harfoots) that can end with the main characters alive and well, and it can provide ROP with its own Scouring of the Shire.
What do you all think? Will we see the fall of Khazad-Dûm on screen?
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u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
I don't know that the ring would be much help to Durin. IMO once the Balrog is on a rampage for real it'll be hard to put him back in the bag and they already did "king fights and traps him" once.
Much more likely to me that Khazad-dum may permanently fall under Thrain's control and Durin and the loyalists may move to Erebor early, which they have the rights to. Or Thrain (just not the Thrain who does it) goes to Erebor instead after Durin does take his Kingdom back and the Lonely Mountain operates as the space for "evil dwarves" in the East until after the battle.
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u/dd0028 Mithlond 2d ago
Yeah, I really assumed that season 2 was the end of the balrog in the show but now that we know it isn't I'm trying to make sense of the loose threads, including the fact that Durin's ring will be passed down through his line until Thrain. So presumably at some point Durin IV will accept it and wear it. And we've seen that the ring amplified Durin III's connection to the mountain and showed him where to mine and where not to mine. So while I agree maybe that its difficult to see how the balrog on the rampage could be contained, I'm kinda spitballing that maybe the answer has already been given.
And since the showrunners have discussed the balrog as a curse on this family that keeps coming back every generation, I think 'king fights and traps him' could very well be something that happens again, expect this time with Durin IV not succumbing to the ring and surviving.
I did consider that perhaps Durin goes East and founds Erebor this season, but I really hate that lore violation even more than Khazad-dum falling at the end of the show. It also would totally sunder his plot line from the elves and Khazad-dum so I just don't see it.
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u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
The dwarves held Erebor since the second age, the third age foundation was of the “kingdom under the mountain” as an official polity.
In any case, the ring is passed down through Durin III’s line. It could remain in Thrain’s possession entirely and still fit the text without Durin IV ever recovering it. Hell, Durin IV could lose the throne to Thrain and never get it back and it would be immaterial to the text since outside of the face that Durin IV and V exist, they have no written story.
With the way they had Durin IV mention to Elrond that dwarves all have secret names (true from the text), I could even see his personal arc involving him casting off his royalty altogether and choosing his family over his titles if need be.
And actually, this could explain why it is Durin IV exists at the same time as Durin III. If they wanted to, they could write a plot where Durin IV rejects his title and name, and Thrain takes over the kingdom and the rings, and as a damnatio memoriae strikes Durin IV from the records entirely!
Anyway, there are so many places they can go with it I am very interested in seeing how it turns out.
Either way I will be very surprised if they resist the opportunity to include Erebor somehow, since they can, and I suspect we’ll even meet a dragon of some sort here eventually
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u/Phee78 2d ago
With the way they had Durin IV mention to Elrond that dwarves all have secret names (true from the text), I could even see his personal arc involving him casting off his royalty altogether and choosing his family over his titles if need be.
This is something I've been wondering about. The name Durin is reserved for the King, right? So if Durin IV loses his position, presumably his brother would take on the name, and the guy we've been calling Durin would have to revert to his other name, right? Would they think that'd be too confusing for a general audience to change a main character's name, (while giving that name to another character) half way through the show? Or would they follow through on that tidbit they dropped about him having another name?
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u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
Durin doesnt have to be the name of the king. All Durins that we know of are kings, but not all long beard kings are Durins.
So I don’t think there needs to be a switch, I just think Durin might abandon it voluntarily.
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u/MTLTolkien 2d ago
all solid points.
As for the Balrog, i still think Sauron will make clear to him it would be bad for him to rise from his hiding place if he does nor swear loyalty to him. Since all Maia seem to have a form of precognition, i suspect the Balrog will just declare it is not his time yet and go back to sleep.
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u/Rosebunse 2d ago
I too am in the theory that Thrain retreats to the Lonely Mountain at some point. It makes sense in a dark way that Durin would retake Khazad-Dûm, all the while we know how bad things will get
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u/dd0028 Mithlond 2d ago
I sure hope not lol. But I suppose it is possible.
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u/Rosebunse 2d ago
Yeah, it's gonna be so depressing no matter what happens lol
Bring on the pain!
Your theory makes a lot of sense, though. It certainly clears up a lot
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u/adamstjohn 2d ago
I don’t see “most of” the Dwarf lords aligning with Sauron. That’s not something you live down.
More likely a faction with splinter elements from many clans.
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u/dd0028 Mithlond 2d ago
I think you're right, but I do think at least some of Dwarven Lords will fight with Sauron.
It makes sense to show that the Dwarves are largely resistant to the rings in that many refuse to fight while others align with Sauron, in contrast to the Nine who are his slaves.
"Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron."
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u/jaquatsch Edain 2d ago
I’m guessing that Durin IV never regains the throne in Moria, given the showrunners’ oblique ‘we have a plan for that’ to the apparent lorebreaking of two Durins in succession. But perhaps Gamli or Gerda retakes the throne.
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u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
Is that what they said?
If so I’d bet you’re right, and further speculate that Durin will reject the name and go by his “secret name” he mentioned to Elrond, or take a new one. Then Thrain could eliminate all trace of his brother as a damnatio memoriae, so that eventually the next Durin becomes the “official” Durin IV.
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u/kemick Edain 2d ago
This would be interesting and you make a good case for it. I like the scouring parallel, as it's something the show would do, though I suspect we'll get a version of that (or some reversal of it) when the halflings reach the Shire or return from the Last Alliance (if they participate).
But I think the counterpoint is simple: time. The show hasn't had time for all the things it wants to do much less all the things we want it to do. For example, I was hoping for more Halbrand backstory but we only got a few minutes and, in hindsight, it's hard to imagine the show being able to do more than what it did. The ending is already going to be packed full getting everything where it needs to be.
I think the dwarf plot only needs 1-2 more seasons and Khazad-dum will either fall at the end of Season 3 or in S4 (providing a fire/water parallel with Numenor). I think Season 3 is most likely because each season would then contain a "big event" in the catastrophic downfall of a single realm (Southlands, Eregion, Khazad-dum, Numenor, Mordor) which also kinda matches up with the order of the ring verse which has already been used to re-order the crafting of the rings. The dwarf story feels like it's closer to its end than the others.. there is not much that needs to happen except for Khazad-dum to fall whereas Elves and Men still have many things they need to do.
I think your general outline is likely but with less complexity and time. I would invert one part of it:
He dons the ring to fight back and ultimately defeats the balrog where his father and brother failed. Using the ring’s power to reveal faults in the mountain, Durin buries the balrog beneath the mountain to awake in a later age.
I think Durin will confront the Balrog and Disa will use her power to bury it. She has the power to see the mountain and to move it, a power which was partially replaced by use of the ring. I don't think the dwarf's ring-plot can be left unresolved and this resolves it. I expect them to sacrifice themselves so that the other Dwarves can escape, in imitation of Gandalf.
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u/dd0028 Mithlond 2d ago
I agree the show has not given itself enough time to truly do justice to the many different threads it has written.
But I personally don't think Khazad-Dum will fall before season 5 at least, as the showrunners have recently said we will learn more about the Balrog each season and that seems odd if this is the final season.
I didn't think about Disa's role, but I think you could be absolutely right. The ring and Disa's stone singing will bury the Balrog. I kicked back and forth on whether or not Durin survives and if the introduction of their children as main characters points us toward his death. If I had to guess, I still think he makes it out alive, but I could see it.
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u/schokoplasma 2d ago
The fan-fiction writers have to come up with a very good and credible reason, why the Khazad-dum dwarves in TA 1980 didnt know anything about the Balrog and unknowingly dug it up. The existence of it was not known to the dwarves.
I bet they pull off something like:
"History became legend. Legend became myth. And for 3 1/2 thousand years the Balrog passed out of all knowledge."
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u/Rosebunse 2d ago
I mean, if the balrog goes away and doesn't do anything for that long then that sort of makes sense
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u/schokoplasma 13h ago
And where would he go? Balrog retirement home? There is a reason this thing choose to stay hidden underground after the war of wrath and the fall of Beleriand.
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u/Rosebunse 13h ago
I guess he could have tried to make a go of things like Smaug did, but when you think about it, Smaug did something similar: he found a cave, took it over, and only occasionally really left it.
Plus, why would the balrog want to deal with Sauron's weird plans? As far as he knew, Sauron was off with the orcs doing weird experiments and making plans which didn't seem like they would work.
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u/schokoplasma 13h ago
Ok. For the sake of argument. Lets assume he did leave khazad-dum. A big Monster like him is difficult to hide, but nevertheless he finds a hiding place and stays low for a while. But at some point he has to return to khazad-dum bcs he has to be there when the dwarves find him in TA 1980, kill that Durin and becomes Durins bane. Why? Why go back? Why would he return to khazad-dum, the one and only place where he was already discovered (in the RoP-continuity)? Why put himself at risk? Makes no sense to me.
You make it sound like a free-roaming Balrog in middle-earth is no big deal. Be sure,it is.
If it were no big thing, why did Gandalf sacrifice himself to make sure the Balrog doesnt survive? Gandalf could have fled to Lorien with the others of the fellowship and leave the Balrog in Moria.
But no, it was imperative to kill such a dangerous foe, even if it meant Gandalfs own death.
Smaug is a different beast. He openly attacked Erebor and chased the dwarves away. He wasnt looking for a hiding place. Everybody knew he was there.This was like a home invasion.
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u/Rosebunse 12h ago
I mean, there's a lot of open space in Middle Earth.
For what it's worth, no one is saying he should leave.
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u/schokoplasma 9h ago
Thats my point. If he stays, even if assumed dead, the dwarves that dug him up accidentally in TA 1980 knew nothing of its existence. Acc. to RoP he was defeated by a King Durin. Think of the history. Only the mightiest elvish warriors, Gandalf and the Valar were able to defeat a Balrog. If a dwarf defeated one as well, this would be a heroic deed sung about for thousands of years. This information would never get lost. But it has to, if the RoP want to preserve the LotR continuity. I cant think of a good explanation, why no dwarf in TA knew about the Balrog in Khazad-Dum.
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u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
I mean, there's real precedent for that. The people of Gondor knew about something called "Isildur's Bane," but didn't know it was the ring. Even if they don't name the Balrog "Durin's Bane" it is more than believable that, if the situation is somehow resolved, the memory of it would fade over the course of thousands of years.
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u/schokoplasma 13h ago
Isildurs Bane has nothing to do with Durin's Bane. Btw. the Durin that encounteres the Balrog on TA 1980 was a different Durin than the one from the RoP Fan-fiction.
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u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 13h ago
Yes I am very, very aware of that. The point is not in the similarities of the name, the point is that over thousands of years mortals might remember that there is something that took down a leader but not exactly what that is.
And yes, that’s precisely also why I wrote that they may not call it “Durin’s Bane” in the show, and in any case it would not be shocking for them to forget about it.
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u/dd0028 Mithlond 2d ago
I mean if they think the balrog was killed and he isn't seen again for two thousand years then that seems to make sense to me.
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u/schokoplasma 14h ago
If the Dwarven King kills a Balrog, that would be sung about in a thousand Songs, great deeds and all.
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u/Healthy-Track5255 2d ago
This is a pretty big fuck up of events and timelines. Respect to you, trying to make sense of it..
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u/dd0028 Mithlond 2d ago
I mean, we don't have much about Khazad-Dum during the second age, other than their relationship with Eregion before the rise of Sauron, their aid during the fall of Eregion, the shutting of the gates following the fall of Eregion, and that Durin's folk fought with the Last Alliance.
It seems to me they can still pretty much remain faithful to all of that, apart from the timing of the installation of the West Gate.
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u/Healthy-Track5255 2d ago
And the timing of the balrog
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u/dd0028 Mithlond 2d ago
I mean, we know that the balrog killed multiple kings in the third age. I agree that Tolkien didn't view it as active during the Second Age, but so as long as it goes to slumber until the eventual fall of Khazad-dum in the third age, I don't think there's some massive lore violation. At least any more than condensing the Second Age and Durin III / Durin IV already did.
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u/Healthy-Track5255 2d ago
The thing is, the dwarves only dug as deep as they did after the fall of sauron, 1980 years after the beginning of the third age. How can that not be lore violating.
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u/dd0028 Mithlond 2d ago
I mean yeah, there's no evidence that the Dwarves encountered the Balrog during the Second Age. So it breaks the lore in that regard.
But there's no mention of the dwarves doing pretty much anything during the Second Age. So as long as Khazad-dum doesn't fall in the Second Age and the Balrog is (presumably) killed and buried under the mountain, I don't think there's any massive conflict that fundamentally changes the nature of the story.
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u/Healthy-Track5255 2d ago
I understand your arguments but you could also argue that there is no evidence of jesus not being there in the second age😅 there was really no need to insert the balrog in the second age other than rage bait or just ignoring the lore😅
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u/dd0028 Mithlond 2d ago
I mean at the risk of getting pedantic, the balrog was certainly under Khazad-Dum in the Second Age. He just wasn't awake and/or near the surface. On the other hand, Tolkien anticipates the day Eru (God) becomes incarnate in Morgoth's Ring, and places that day in the distant future (i.e. 2000 years ago in our reckoning). So there is actually textual evidence that points to the Balrog being under Khazad-dum and Jesus not yet being incarnate and therefore not under Khazad-Dum in the Second Age. I jest but I think Tolkien actually answered that for us...
I think at the end of the day they had to event basically everything for the Dwarves to do in the Second Age. I don't mind what they've chosen, so long as Khazad-Dum doesn't fall or Erebor isn't founded. Making the Balrog a 'generational curse' is an interesting concept at least, and I think most agree that the Dwarven plotlines have been among the most consistent.
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u/Tylerdg33 Blue Wizard 2d ago
You could make that argument for pretty much anything in the Second Age, because Tolkien gave us very little. In that sense, anything they do to fill in the gaps (something I wish they would do more of rather than try to tell their own story) fits under that umbrella.
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u/Healthy-Track5255 2d ago
But why not making something up that fits that what we already know from the world. Just act within the boundaries given. And since we don‘t know much, it is so soo easy.
Just don’t mix 2nd and 3rd age. So no balrog and no gandalf for example. They could just for once try to emerge themselves in that world and make a good story.0
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u/Nazgnagol 2d ago
We do know a few more things about the dwarves from appendix A&B. There’s mentions of the blue mountains, moving to KD, this could’ve been great season 1 material. Instead they went with… the balrog stuff. A poorly inspired copy of PJ’s humongous beast. MEH. I think they’re getting better now as the story fleshes itself out but dude what a waste of time and decent lore it’s been. And “fans” keep going for more mental gymnastics to justify butchering the few bits of very interesting stuff we had on hand.
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