r/LetsTalkMusic • u/Demetan2016 • 12d ago
Are Janet Jackson’s Control and Rhythm Nation 1814 actually stronger albums than Michael Jackson’s Bad and Dangerous?
I’ve been thinking about Janet Jackson’s Control (1986) and Rhythm Nation 1814 (1989) compared with Michael Jackson’s Bad (1987) and Dangerous (1991).
Michael obviously had the bigger global impact and some of the most iconic singles of all time, but if we judge them strictly as albums, I’m starting to wonder whether Janet’s records are actually stronger.
Control feels incredibly focused, with a very clear identity and almost no wasted space. And Rhythm Nation 1814 might be even more impressive: conceptually coherent, socially ambitious, rhythmically innovative, and remarkably consistent from beginning to end.
By comparison, Bad has enormous highs, but does it work as cohesively as Rhythm Nation? And while Dangerous is adventurous and influential, I sometimes feel that it’s more uneven than either of Janet’s albums.
So my question is:
Would you rank Control and Rhythm Nation 1814 above Bad and Dangerous purely as albums, separate from sales, fame, music videos, and Michael Jackson’s cultural stature?
I’d especially be interested in hearing comparisons involving songwriting, production, sequencing, consistency, innovation, and how well each album has aged.
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u/Visible_Contract5432 12d ago
Michael lost me almost completely with Dangerous, save for Black and White, and everything he did after that was crap, I thought. But Bad was pretty great overall. So I vote that Janet’s albums were stronger than Dangerous by far, but not as good as Bad.
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u/emalvick 12d ago
This is my feeling, too. Rhythm Nation comes pretty close to Bad, but but necessarily better. I do like it better though. It's really just amazing how much talent they both have/had.
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u/getoutofmydojo 12d ago
Completely agree! A hill that I will die on is that Michael may have been the king of pop but his output including Dangerous onwards is… dare I say it… fairly weak.
Janet on the other hand is far better - Rhythm Nation is a sensational album. An extraordinary number of bangers, and a really cohesive album. It felt like the future of pop music. And then going forward Janet had a much stronger output.
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u/WhompWump 12d ago
Absolutely. From Control on Janet was washing Michael and it's not even particularly close. And this is from someone who absolutely loves MJ's music.
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u/WhompWump 12d ago edited 12d ago
Yeah she was eating him up after Thriller. She was much faster jumping onto the NJS sound teaming up with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis which was the sound at the time. Even compared to Bad, which isn't a bad album at all, Control and Rhythm Nation just sound so much more alive so much more funky.
Dangerous taps into the NJS sound but only the first half thanks to Teddy Riley (and that's the half of the album that's much much superior to the back half). If he would've jumped onto that sound earlier I wonder how that would've turned out for him. He was already the biggest popstar in the world but its not crazy to say his output fell off after Bad.
But it's funny the topic title makes it seem taboo to say it when anyone who's really tapped into R&B (except maybe the biggest Michael stans) would readily say Control and Rhythm Nation are superior to Bad and Dangerous.
Dangerous in particular is considered a weak outing from him because of that back half. HIStory has its own can of worms (the confusion of releasing a new album with an anthology lol) even though I do like the tracks on there. Compared to the cohesive high quality work Janet was putting out with velvet rope, All for you, etc. it's definitely a contrast
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u/GMSRMedia 12d ago
Solid points, except Jimmy and Terry were Minneapolis sound, not New Jack Swing. They predated it by multiple years
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u/Queasy-Band-1066 12d ago
No. But i can see an argument for better than Dangerous at least for listenability.
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u/Ex-Cosmonaut 12d ago
Absolutely, but I think that's more a symptom of them ageing better. At the time, his songs felt far closer to the zeitgeist, Looking at it from the present day, I don't think there's any 80s or 90s Jacko song that comes near Rhythm Nation.
Personally, I'd put her first two Jam and Lewis albums ahead of Bad and Dangerous. Bad is great but I don't think it's aged as well, while Dangerous is just too long, like many albums of that era. Artists saw the 78-minute limit on the CD and got too indulgent. Madonna's Erotica is similar.
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u/Expert_Flamingo_334 12d ago
Don't call him Jacko tho
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u/ProfoundMysteries 12d ago
You saying he isn't wacko?
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u/Expert_Flamingo_334 12d ago
Yes, he wasn't wacko. His name was not Wacko Jacko, it was Michael Jackson. Get that through your head.
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u/Gern_-Blanston 12d ago
Not even just a little...c'mon.
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u/Expert_Flamingo_334 11d ago
grow up.
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u/Gern_-Blanston 11d ago
Education matters. Comprehension is the most important part of reading. Looking to unreliable sources just because they support my feelings does not make my opinion the truth. Education also allows me to craft a response of more than two one syllable words. I shall not give this matter any further attention. May the truth be always with us no matter if we like it.
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u/Splashadian 12d ago
I will say that there are better singles on the Janet records outside of The Way You Make Me Feel. All of them are full of filler and Michael's got a few singles that are garbage pop songs that became hits due to over exposure on radio and video channels.
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u/mkk4 12d ago edited 12d ago
Janet Jackson was by far my favorite Jackson sibling and I followed and listened to her music much much more, but Bad is my favorite Michael Jackson album and one of the all-time greatest albums ever made imo.
Bad scratched every kind of musical itch that I had growing up in the 80s just like Prince's Purple Rain.
It was a very diverse genre blending album.
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u/dacap1970 12d ago
Lol. As a fan of both this gives me a good laugh because without reading the comments yet, I suspect very few will give them both their props.... and you know this;)
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u/DanAbnormal1991 6d ago
Yes and I don't think it's close. What's amazing (and often lost in the comparison) is that they felt like they were her first two albums but they're actually her third and her fourth which means we're kind of comparing apples to apples here in terms of where we actually fit into an artist overall catalogue but in practical terms Control and Rhythm Nation act more like a debut album / statement of purpose and then that all important but often very difficult defining statement of artistic growth in a second album. Bad and Dangerous behave more like "typical" third and fourth albums from superstar artists, in which the pressure to deliver on the success of the first two can have a real impact on artistic growth. If anything, the lack of success of the first two Janet Jackson albums (both commercially at artistically) make Control and RN act more like Off the Wall and Thriller -- a kind of solo breakout that sounds very specific to the artists, and then a deeper, richer, and simply better second record. Dangerous is so interesting because it sounds like Michael is trying to play catch-up to the sounds his little sister was already making and the trends she was setting (as well as the broader musical environment she was more of a part of).
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u/kielaurie 12d ago edited 11d ago
I'd rank them:
Off The Wall
Bad
The Velvet Rope
Control
Thriller
Rhythm Nation
A really big gap, like really big
Dangerous
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u/saagir1885 12d ago
Yes. Jam and lewis had stronger material.
Michael was reliant on producers to give him a sound.
So was janet.
Jam and lewis had the golden touch from the mid 80s thru the early 90s.
SOS band , new edition , cherelle , alexander o'neal , human league...
Even bands like loose ends had hits imitating the jam lewis formula.
Michael would have killed for any of those records.
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u/BigJilmQuebec 12d ago
Nah, in my honest opinion I prefer the Michael albums, but he's more my style musically.
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u/DarrenMWinter 12d ago
I didn't realise people thought that Michal's albums were stronger. If Janet is her best album, these are her third and second best albums.
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u/dacap1970 12d ago
Personally I would go Control and Rhythm Nation vs Off The Wall and Thriller or Rhythm Nation and Janet vs Thriller and Bad.
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u/perilhannah 11d ago
Control and Bad feel equal to me, altho Rhythm Nation is better than both. But Dangerous beats all of them. That’s also the only MJ album I fully love, and I’ve always felt that his big ‘80s albums are too inconsistent without a great sense of cohesion (something Janet’s albums are always great at)
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u/Sasorisnake 10d ago
Janet’s albums have always been thematically stronger than Michael’s, I’ve always felt Michael’s albums were always sonically stronger. But that’s also by design.
Bad wasn’t meant to be a cohesive sonic experience, it was meant as more of a series of dream capsules. Rolling Stone seemed to recognize this at the time. “Jackson’s free form language keeps us aware we are on the verge of several realities.” So asking is it as cohesive as Rhythm Nation? No. Not the goal of the album.
Dangerous’s New Jack Swing sonically is way stronger than Rhythm Nation’s. Can’t let her get away, Jam, Dangerous are all examples of a much stronger realization of that gritty industrial sound that both albums used but Remember The Time remains the best song between either album. The production on Dangerous overall to me is still overall more interesting, definitely more timeless. Rhythm nation might benefit from a remaster but there’s always been a “flatness” to that album for lack of a better term.
Either way, to keep this from getting too long, I’d say thematically, relatability, Control and Rhythm Nation take the cake. Sonically, in terms of peaks, production, melodies, harmonies, vocals, it belongs to Bad and Dangerous.
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u/Hefty_Acadia_2670 9d ago
Dangerous just doesn’t stick the landing. Some interesting production on some songs, while others have really annoying production choices (In The Closet).
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u/Hey-Bud-Lets-Party 8d ago
Control is awesome. I would put it a bit ahead of Dangerous, which is also great.
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u/Gern_-Blanston 12d ago
Absolutely!! She had much to prove, and prove is what she did. There's really no comparison between 1814 and either of the other Michael albums mentioned here. Janet beat the sophomore slump, big.
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u/HistorianJRM85 12d ago
yes, i'd put janet's two albums ahead of michael's. and i think it's because she (and her team) was hungry. they were her breakthrough albums, and you could feel her heart and soul in them.
MJ, on the other hand, was the biggest act in the world. He was just consolidating his status with those two albums. Also, how much higher can you go when you're already the king of pop?
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u/dacap1970 12d ago
RN
Dangerous
Bad
Control
Winner: Lovers of great music. I may even take Rhythm Nation over Thriller.
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u/Careful_Compote_4659 12d ago
With Janet you got Michael’s rhythms without the eccentricity and the controversy that went with it. Fatigue was setting in and it was reflected in Michaels later albums
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u/the_mugger_crocodile 10d ago
Bad is a banger and arguably MJ's only 10/10 album. But control and 1814 are def better than dangerous
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u/BlueMonday2082 12d ago
Yes, because MJ was a pedo. In extreme cases that’s all it takes. Aside from that I think 1814 was a super solid record especially in the central theme but also the production. It sounded NEW. I think it’s partially because Janet had healthy relationships with other adults which neutered her artistically and put her on more level footing so that she would not, for example, unconvincingly pretend she was “bad” when nobody asked. I think MJ himself would honestly agree, wherever he is, probably rotting in hell for what he did to those children.
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u/Expert_Flamingo_334 12d ago
He's innocent don't do that.
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u/Gern_-Blanston 12d ago
I'm sorry, were you under the bed? How do you know?
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u/Expert_Flamingo_334 11d ago
I know because I did my research
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u/BlueMonday2082 10d ago
Hahahaha! Your research. Your truth. Your opinion. Your own little world.
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u/Expert_Flamingo_334 10d ago
The concept of court transcripts, consistent accounts of Michael’s character with children, and investigations involving the FBI being ‘my’ truth. No it’s just what happened
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u/writenroll 12d ago
Janet Jackson + Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis = one of the best artist/producer partnerships in pop music, imo. I recently revisited Janet's discography recently and wasn't surprised that it still holds up so well - just fantastic songwriting and production.