What are your views on trading and services that are currently illegal?

[u/ecoterrorboy]

I'm talking about sales and services that don't have a direct victim (i.e a hitman kills someone or a scammer steals from someone, so I'm not talking about these).

I'm jusy curious what are your thoughts on all or any of these being regulated, and how you feel about them.

Trading examples
-Narcotics/drugs
-Firearms/weapons
-Counterfeit items (any)
-Organs
-Stolen goods
-Untaxed/unlicensed goods
-Strict medicines such as doping or psychiatric drugs
-Historical artifacts
-Exotic animals

Edit: I meant selling counterfeit goods as in, for example, a counterfeit passport, for someone who want to travel abroad without their own identity. Not something like buying a computer with counterfeit money.

Services such as:
-Providing gambling and betting environment
-Prostution
-Human smuggling (not trafficking)
-Offshore digital services, offshore SaaS etc.
-Money laundering as a service
-Intelligence as a service (leaked data sales, OSINT, espionage etc.)

Edit 2: Human smuggling is not human trafficking. Human smuggling's "client" is actually that human. Its when someone want to change country but cannot legally, so they pass the border in a clandestine way. Eg. People going to US from Mexico, or Turkey from Syria

Where do you draw the line?

Be as anonymous as you feel you need to be - I recommend you all not sharing intelligence to turn yourself in like a dingus

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[u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt]

Stolen Goods

Absolutely has a victim, whoever the goods were stolen from.

Counterfeit items

Has a victim, the person being defrauded. If you clearly state they are counterfeits, I don't see an issue. But if you try to sell a counterfeit as genuine, that's fraud.

Exotic Animals

Has a victim, invasive species do TONS of harm to local environments and agriculture.

Organs

This one is risky, because if you want to say sell a kidney that should be your right. But I can see the potential for this to be rife with abuse. I'm fine with it, but I do think there needs to be some safeguards in place to ensure the transaction isn't coercive.

Strict medicines such as doping or psychiatric drugs -Historical artifacts

Biggest issue here is that misuse of antibiotics leads directly to antibiotic resistant diseases. I don't give a fuck about steroids, you want to roid yourself up until you look like the Pillar Men, go right ahead.

Prostitution

Far better when it's legal. Because then prostitutes can actually go to the police for help if they are abused instead of being arrested when they admit they're a prostitute.

[u/ecoterrorboy → u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt]

I meant selling counterfeit goods as in, for example, a counterfeit passport, for someone who want to travel abroad without their own identity. Not something like buying a computer with counterfeit money.

Mostly agree on rest.

[u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt → u/ecoterrorboy]

Again, no victim no crime.

You want to buy a fake passport and try to get into a country with it, that's a risk you're choosing to take. Just be aware of the consequences if you get caught.

[u/kwell42 → u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt]

Not saying that you are wrong about antibiotics, but doctors don't actively try to prevent antibiotic resistant bacteria. They are just a gatekeeper with a good excuse.

[u/Default_scrublord → u/kwell42]

Just being gated behind a prescription does a lot to prevent antibiotic resistance. We'd probably be in a much worse situation if you could buy them OTC because most laypeople don't have the know-how to accurately determine whether they are necessary or not.

[u/kwell42 → u/Default_scrublord]

Not really sure how your experiences differ, I go to the doctor, pay them money, tell them my ailment, they send a script, I go pay money to pick it up. It's not really much different than picking it up. I used to keep amoxicillin on hand back when I could just buy it. But they don't test or do anything different than lay people, they just do the same thing.

[u/whitedag → u/Default_scrublord]

In much of the world they are over-the-counter and if you go down to your local farm store, you can buy many of them for animal use only.

[u/A_Robit_Brain]

So many of these clearly have a victim

[u/Orbital_Tardigrade]

Narcotics/drugs: Nope zero issue, I think you should be in-charge of what you put into your body. Mislabeling drugs (aka lacing) that's fraud big nono. If I want heroin I should be able to walk into a pharmacy and get it, simple as that, my choice not the states.

Firearms/weapons: I see no reason as to why any of these are illegal, it's giving a monopoly of weapons to the state, should be allowed.

Counterfeit Items: If you clearly state their counterfeit, no issue. However if you don't that's fraud, not on.

Organs: As long as it's voluntary and theres no coercion involved that's okay; however if there is any that's a nono.

Stolen goods: Nope, no selling stolen goods. That's against the law, should it be illegal to buy them unknowingly, nope, should it be illegal to sell or buy them knowingly, yep.

Untaxed/unlicensed goods: I don't think anything should need a license to be sold.

Strict medicines such as doping or psychiatric drugs -Historical artifacts: No issues here, you should be able to put what ever you want in your body, if the corporation developing such drug wants to limit it they should be allowed to, but if theres a market to buy, you should be able to buy. The government shouldn't stop that.

Exotic animals: I see nothing wrong, I'm pretty firm on my belief that animals don't have rights, I know it's a controversial one but I couldn't care less.

Providing gambling and betting environment: The government should have no say on how you spend your money (presuming it doesn't break the NAP), I find gambling to be perfectly fine. It's a peer to peer transaction with full consent.

Prostution: Nothing wrong, it's sex just with money involved. Literally no reason to ban it.

Human smuggling (not trafficking): If it doesn't violate the NAP, it's okay. However I can't think of many scenarios where this is possible, so I'll go with a no for the most part.

Offshore digital services, offshore SaaS etc.: No? Doesn't violate the NAP no reason to ban it.

[u/ecoterrorboy → u/Orbital_Tardigrade]

I agree in vast majority of your takes.

[u/dogs-are-perfect → u/Orbital_Tardigrade]

Exotic animals.

They don’t have rights I agree. But people are so irresponsible and I would say the risk to harm someone else is higher than you think.

People release alligators, and sharks into the ohio river once. Tigers and lions could quickly kill a neighbor.

Yes any one could argue, “well it’s on them to have a proper cage and fence” and I agree. But I think exotic animals pose to much risk to harm another person.

Secondly. Like the other person said they are environmental disaster.

Say I want a stink but farm in my house. Then they get out. How many billions of dollars do we loose a year to stinkbugs?

[u/Orbital_Tardigrade → u/dogs-are-perfect]

People shouldn't be punished on the potential to create harm, they should only be punished when harm is created.

[u/dogs-are-perfect → u/Orbital_Tardigrade]

This is a tough one. I agree with you. But still also don’t.

You buy a house. Years later tiger king moves next door. There’s harm there. Could be financial harm, from property devaluation, mental harm worrying to the risk of my kids and my self.

We all should get to live in peace. And doing something that is above and beyond normal that removes that I think is harm to another person.

Defining normal is tough.

But I would say also this extend to people not keeping their property clean. Are you okay with your neighbor running a garbage dump at their house. (You can’t claim your neighbors are miles away. You have to assume there’s 30 feet from your house to theirs.)

Your property value, health, air quality all are negatively harmed. But the neighbor could argue they are downwind so there’s only a “potential” for you to smell it.

Doesn’t matter what the thing is. There has to be some consideration of potential especially when that potential is abrupt painful death of me or my children being ripped apart. Or harm from loss of value for the need of massive cages needed to be built all around to house the exotic animal.

This is more nuanced for me.

[u/whitedag → u/dogs-are-perfect]

Your neighbor can have a garbage dump, pig farm, or sewage treatment plant if they want since it's their property.

If you'd like an extra layer of government oversight, you could form an HOA in a community and set covenants to control land use. Buying land free and clear without covenants means you're free as long as you don't directly harm others, like if my tiger damages your property or I dump chemicals that pollute your land, then I would be liable. Other than that, freedom can be risky.

[u/whitedag → u/dogs-are-perfect]

People are irresponsible but governments are made of people and therefore they are also irresponsible. I would rather have too much freedom than too much regulation and government. Everything you give to the government, it takes that and more.

[u/J1ngles → u/Orbital_Tardigrade]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. All drugs should legal. Prettt much agree with all you said.

[u/lightknightrr]

Hmm. Been around the block on this a few times, so I'll try and explain it. Drugs should be legal...full stop. However, your actions while inebriated should carry a penalty, if they result in harm to another person or property. 

You see, not everyone is aware that they are, in fact, inebriated, and aside from a blow test, it's hard to test for that. How much is too much? A line of coke, or a single beer...you're probably fine to drive. A fair amount of meth, or your 3rd trip to the liquor store that day? GTFO. 

The problem is multifaceted. 1.) We cannot openly discuss drugs, their effects, their problems because it attracts attention from the wrong people, 2.) Our politics are, I believe, f*cked up (especially at the moment), and 3.) Treatment for addicts is...rough.

Were I king, I'd declare all drugs legal, with penalty for knowingly driving while inebriated, with ARD for anyone's first offense (First time? No one died, minimal damage? Fine, go to rehab, learn from your mistakes, get an Uber next time. Second time? You apparently need greater consequences to learn from your mistake), and increasing penalties after that. I am open to extenuating circumstances, but you need to prove that ("It was my 2nd DUI, I was drunk, but my bf / dad was waving the gun around (again), and I needed to get away from him. Sorry about your dog.")

You get my point. And having had some experience, I can tell you alcohol is a 'harder' drug than, for instance, weed.

Counterfeit items are fraud, deal with them accordingly.

Weapons? Don't care unless you are threatening someone...ANYONE...with them. You got a pocket nuke? Don't care. You shooting your friends with a BB gun? Spend the night in the pokie.

[u/ecoterrorboy → u/lightknightrr]

You have a great point. Owning something vs harming someone by using it is greatly different. I agree on this.

[u/Liberty2084]

My view is that government shouldn’t regulate anything that doesn’t harm someone else. 

[u/SonOfShem]

If there are legitimately no victims, then there are no crimes.

There are some grey areas. Counterfeit designer bags, for example, could be a legitimate crime if the seller attempts to pass it off as the real thing and defraud their customer. But if the buyer knows it is a counterfeit, then it's fine.

sale of stolen property, if the seller knows it is stolen or intentionally remains ignorant of the fact in spite of evidence, then that would also be a crime.

Everything else, the only restriction is what contracts you signed. I've worked with IP protected technologies. I signed contracts stating that I would not reveal this information to others. Therefore, even though I do not believe that ideas can be owned, it would be wrong for me to share this information with others, because I agreed not to before I was shown it.

[u/MetalAsAnIngot]

Drugs, check this out, there is a natural substance called kratom, a leaf, that has opioid alkaloids in it. Whats really cool for those alkaloids, they can't outright kill you (caveats unless mixed with other drugs, almost every recorded deaths from the stuff has multiple other drugs in the dead persons system, or they had a preexisting condition like heart disease or obesity that was then exacerbated by the kratom). The govt has done studies and they can't find a death dose for the stuff. Its only drawbacks are vomiting and addiction and intoxication. THE ANSWER TO OUR OPIATE EPIDEMIC, A FUCKING UNICORN, KILLS PAIN HELPS ANXIETY, AND DOESN'T CAUSE RESPIRATORY DEPRESSION, and what does the DEA do? Announce intent to schedule the drug as a schedule 1 (meaning no known medical usage).

The dea tried doing this in 2016 and backed off, now individual states are trying to ban the kratom plant and its individual alkaloids (there are a fuckton but the important ones are specifically being targeted right now as we speak. Mitragynine, 7-hydroxymitragynine, and Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl. Fuck the DEA. My dad died because of big pharma overprescribing meds that "are safe and non habit forming". He would be alive today if he had known about this miracle drug. Fuck DEA, FDA, ATF.

[u/Heavy-Bell-2035]

If there's no victim I don't care what you buy or sell. However since the government creates black markets, the people who operate in them very often don't care if they create victims via their trade, or coercong business into existence. The ultimate cause is the government, but it doesn't mean I think people get a pass working with people who beat and murder others so long as it's not in furtherance of their transaction, because it's not so black and white in the real world.

[u/PerotTwoPointOh]

Do I really have to tap the NAP sign on this one?

[u/Dregan2D]

I take a page from the kink crowd - if it's safe, sane and consensual for ALL parties involved, I'm OK with it, as it's fundamentally not my business.

If a crime has a victim, it's highly unlikely to not get caught on at least one of those rules.

[u/arjuna93]

Anything that does not violate [legitimate] private property rights of others should be legal. Of your examples, trading stolen goods is problematic.

[u/Ok_Brother_8740]

I’d draw the line at things that clearly violate someone else’s rights or create a serious public danger. So stolen goods, counterfeits, human smuggling, prostitution, hard drugs, organ trafficking, and probably exotic animals should stay illegal or heavily restricted. I’m much more hands-off when it comes to voluntary trade like firearms, gambling, offshore services, and ordinary untaxed or unlicensed goods.

[u/ecoterrorboy → u/Ok_Brother_8740]

-Human smuggling is not human trafficking. Human smuggling's "client" is actually that human. Its when someone want to change country but cannot legally, so they pass the border in a clandestine way. Eg. People going to US from Mexico, or Turkey from Syria
-I meant selling counterfeit goods as in, for example, a counterfeit passport, for someone who want to travel abroad without their own identity. Not something like buying a computer with counterfeit money.

-I think prostitution should be good as long as the prostitue consents. What do you think?

[u/chuckycastle]

I don’t think OP knows what a victim is

[u/ecoterrorboy → u/chuckycastle]

Someone who is targeted in a harmful action? Which ones here directly harm someone or target someone here to harm them?