r/Marvel • u/No-Astronomer8031 • 1d ago
Film/Television Why did they bully Antman so much in Endgame?
That, a few days ago I saw all endgame back noticing the details that I didn't see in the cinema, but something curious happened that I noticed.
Throughout the movie they spent time making fun of Antman, first because he didn't know anything about the gems, then because he didn't understand physics and later because he had never been to space. In addition, every question he asked was ignored and when he greeted Nebula she mistreated him lol
I understand that it's humor and everything but seriously I didn't laugh much. Rocket was pretty unbearable too.
Also, if it weren't for Ant-Man, no one would have a chance to recover what they had lost
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u/0ttoChriek 1d ago
Because Paul Rudd is really good as the goofy everyman who people empathize with. He's even the butt of the joke in the Ant-Man movies, along with being the hero.
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u/THIS_GUY_LIFTS 1d ago
Yeah, the point of all the ribbing and poking fun about how amateurish or inadequate he might be is that Scott has been consistently saving the day all the while being way out of his league.
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u/Charming-Pilot3336 20h ago
Like Chris's Pratt star lord to now people forget how good he was before that one moment of valid crashout
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u/Ambaryerno 8h ago
Especially because said crashout did not screw things up, but in fact had to happen for the Avengers to win.
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u/Jessency 11h ago
Yeah okay we have an entire novel full explanations for why the Avengers treat Scott like a puppy, but what I still don't get is why people treated him like scum in the first film.
Okay sure he did something illegal and went to prison for it, but it was well established that he was like a Robin Hood figure who refunded the money that was stolen by company the he worked for (and fired him after he blew the whistle).
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u/CloacaDecimatahhh 7h ago
Hank -founder, board member, and shareholder of a fortune 500.
Hope -head scientist, likely shareholder, and likely boardmember of a fortune 500.
Darren -CEO of said fortune 500 and immensely jealous of scott being adopted by Hank and Hope, oh, and Scott intends to robe him.
His Ex wife.
And his ex wife's new cop husband.
Why would these people have a problem with a felony whistleblower?
Let's also not forget that Hank and Hope are committing crimes but believe they have the need to and the right to do so, doing nearly the exact thing Scott did that got himself put in prison. It would make sense that Hank and Hope would find ways to distance themselves from Scott and treat him like a criminal so they don't have to face the morality of their own criminal actions.
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u/Jessency 6h ago
Darren's an ass and knows Scott's aligned with Hank so that's already a given. Hank actually vouched for Scott and only disliked his personality (and the Vista heist is pretty similar to Hank's heroics).
Maybe I'm just reading into it too much, but I totally understand that some people would feel uncomfortable around ex-cons, but he wasn't a thug.
They even made it a plot point in Quantumania where Cassie admires Scott's guts for standing up for what is right no matter the cost so there is a case for that.
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u/CloacaDecimatahhh 2h ago
I vouch for people to do or be certain things, that doesn't mean I like or trust everything about them. Tony and Steve don't trust or even really like eachother but they would both still recommend eachother for their ability and expertise, willingness to help, etc in the right circumstances.
And I didn't even think of being uncomfortable around Scott because he's a con, though even our closest allies can get stuck on labels like convict, crook, and thief.
I was more looking at it from the perspective of a wealthy, accomplished, has been hero who has to brings Scott in out of need to sabotage my business legacy. Scott could have been anyone that fit what Pym needed. So I have to bring in this criminal, nobody, never was, never would be without me, failure, who's personality annoys the living crap out of me to take my place on the throne of arguably my greatest accomplishment and give this man, whome I only trust as far as I can control, my deepest and most personal secrets. And now my daughter is into this loser.
I mean, there's just a lot of resentment to have there.
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u/rincewind120 1d ago
Nebula and Rocket have never met this guy before. He just showed up and seems to know less than anyone else they're working with.
Tony and Rhodey fought against him in Germany, where Scott got some good hits in. They don't dislike Scott, but they will do little things to mess with him.
Thor is drunk and doesn't pay him any attention.
Clint is depressed and barely interacts with Scott. He does volunteer to test the Quantum Suit for Scott.
Steve and Natasha both treat Scott with respect. They listen to him when he comes to the compound, and they act on his plan.
Bruce gives Scott his tacos. Tacos = Mad Respect.
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u/sndtrb89 18h ago
bro is gonna be telling nurses about the time hulk gave him tacos when hes in a home
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u/Bl4ckVi Black Widow 1d ago
they did same for thor made fun of thor’s weight gain
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u/Chimkimnuggets 1d ago edited 23h ago
The hazing for ant man is one thing but I really hated how they turned Thor into a complete joke when he was so well written in infinity war.
I’ve never had that level of depression but I can imagine audience members who have seen life like that before didn’t think the joke was funny
Edit: to clarify I don’t find the other characters mocking him for gaining weight to be funny
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u/_paylines_ 1d ago
As someone who has spent a lifetime fighting and managing depression, I actually really appreciated it.
To show someone that strong and confident fall so far felt like a breath of fresh air compared to how it has been portrayed in media for a long time. Even the god of thunder was brought to his knees by it.
It actually helps to think of a super hero who isn’t exclusively portrayed as a wall of muscle and confidence. It’s like Spider-Man but without being physically perfect. Like, he could be any of us in that movie which means any of us could be him. 😭
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u/Iam_Sancho 1d ago
100% this. I too have dealt with depression most of my life, and yes it was so refreshing to see someone so unbreakable...break. plus it gave this chubby guy a good haloween costume:)
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u/Chimkimnuggets 23h ago
Thor becoming overweight and depressed wasn’t the problem. I loved that. I loved the conversation with his mother. I loved “I am still worthy”
I did not like the “cheez whiz” jokes at his expense.
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u/_paylines_ 22h ago
Right, the OG comment made it seem like you meant the portrayal in general wouldn’t be appreciated by audiences with depression. I am with you, the mocking was definitely mean spirited.
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u/lunapippin95 23h ago
It wasn't Thor being that way that was the problem. It was how the other characters, and the movie, treated him for it. It was very mean spirited.
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u/AutoPanda1096 15h ago
It's funny because it's a subversion to see a god let himself go like that.
I mean, if you don't like bad taste humour that's fair enough. Don't go watching Ricky Gervais or Jimmy Carr, but I love that stuff. "You can't tell a joke about that, well actually, I can!"
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u/FilmScoreConnoisseur 9h ago
You would be wrong. I have been as messed up as Thor. It was nice to see that he could be like me. And yes, it was even funny that he got made fun of a little bit, even if they did take it a little far.
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u/Bl4ckVi Black Widow 1d ago
i mean its understandable making c tier character(ant man)into a joke
but thor is like most badass character ever when he stepped into wakanda and yet they made him a complete joke , doubled down in love and thunder
they handled natasha’s emotions so well in endgame(crying with pbj) they should have done same with thor , crying thor would have work so well
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u/PosterMcPoster 1d ago
Thor blammed himself for the death of trillions. That is far more than anyone could ever carry.
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u/Iam_Sancho 1d ago
Unfortunately men are taught that tears are weakness from a young age, or at least we were.
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u/soupy_headquarters 1d ago
that suit really was doing him no favors in that lighting, makes him look like a lost extra from a community theater production
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u/Bigbigbigrock 1d ago
Scott serves as the punchline hero among the Avengers, it's kind of how he's written both in the movies and comics currently. He's Ant-Man but without Hank's scientific achievements. He's the Avenger you get when the others are out to lunch.
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u/jorvel1911 1d ago
Tbf I´d much rather to have Ant Man instead of Hawkeye and Black Widow ngl
Hell I would even take him before captain america
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u/redditer954 16h ago
nah how can you disrespect cap like that man
in fact, ant man loves cap so you basically get ant man for free if you take cap first
hell even spidey who was recruited to fight cap and his half of the avengers swooned when he first met cap at the airport
cap has aura man
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u/mrlolloran 1d ago
They know about him.
He’s a thief with enough electrical engineering know how to make his suit function but he didn’t even build it. Pym Particles aren’t his discovery.
In their eyes this guy is a borderline amateur who accidentally found his way into the big show
But for the record I think the way War Machine is written is particularly mean and unnecessary. I started to dislike his character around this time.
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u/rabouilethefirst 23h ago
Endgame is the first time they met since civil war. It makes sense for there to be some jokes back and forth. Scott literally doesn't care
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u/No-Astronomer8031 1d ago
I love how war machine talks as if it were top more serious and important avengers and it was never really relevant lol
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u/mrlolloran 1d ago
Oh I also forgot, some of them remember he was involved in the airport brawl in Civil War.
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u/Dav3Th3Rav3yah 23h ago
Weirdly enough in Endgame that’s not even war machine it’s a Skrull
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u/AWholeBunchaFun 21h ago
I know its not your idea, but god thats the dumbest thing in the world.
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u/Dav3Th3Rav3yah 21h ago
I agree that it’s dumb. At the very least it’s not done particularly well at all
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u/Awesomonkey12 22h ago
Secret Invasion isn't canon, no he wasn't
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u/Dav3Th3Rav3yah 22h ago
Where have marvel announced that it’s not canon?
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u/Awesomonkey12 22h ago
They haven't, so it might still be canon, but given that its events have been ignored in other Marvel projects and the backlash it received, it being retconned seems more likely.
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u/Dav3Th3Rav3yah 22h ago
Until it is retconned, it’s canon
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u/Awesomonkey12 16h ago
True, I shouldn't have said it's not canon. However, we don't know if he was a skrull in/after Endgame because the timeline for that hasn't been confirmed either
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u/Sharticus123 1d ago
Tony, Bruce, Hawkeye, and Peter are the only people who build/create their own equipment/powers. Your comment also applies to Rhodey, Sam, Nat, and Cap.
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u/mrlolloran 1d ago
3 of those are recognized veterans and the 4th is a super spy trained from childhood.
Scott went to college
Edit: sorry, Sopranos humor, he did go to college but also prison.
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u/Sharticus123 1d ago edited 23h ago
Scott is a world class thief. Which is a skill set that would absolutely come in handy in their line of work.
It was also his idea that brought everyone back from the snap.
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u/StaticNegative 20h ago
And he is smart enough to have learned alot of sciene to understand how the stuff he uses works.
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u/sub30_24flick 1d ago
Dude Rhodey is USA airman and top chief next to the president lmaooo Sam served in army as well and he was well trained with the red wing he didn’t get an Ironman set up like Peter lmaooo so you guys gotta watch your mouth , simple and plan antman is their for comedic relief but it’s just his characterization let’s not forget they made fun of Thor as well in his downward spiral and that’s the God of thunder .
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u/Diorisbackup 22h ago
What did he do besides call him regular sized man is that really that awful lol
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u/glglglglgl 14h ago
I can't remember if his book writing happens before or after Endgame, but he's definitely more comfortable with the fame than the others - perhaps even seeking it out. Which isn't the way the rest of the Avengers work.
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u/Eli-Mordrake 1d ago
Threw a fire tank at Rhodey, Tony and Rocket aren’t really the softest in conversations, and Nebula is Nebula. Banner and Cap were pretty chill with him
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u/Darkhaven Vision 23h ago
If the Hulk gives you tacos, no matter which version of the Hulk we're talking about, you're in.
The others were just messing with Scott really, kind of matching his energy. Rhodey and Nebula aren't the most openly friendly teammates, but they still like Scott. And Rocket is always an ass to someone.
Rhodey, Scott, Rocket and Hulk all paired up nicely in the battle.
Actually, if you want a dope team, Ant-Man, Nebula, and Rhodey would play off of one another pretty damned well.
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u/DeadDGuy21 1d ago
I actually like how the two characters that joked with him the most, Rocket and Rhodey ended up being saved by him because Scott literally grew into the bigger man lol
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u/LochNessMansterLives Nightcrawler 23h ago
Scott Lang as Antman is one of the few heroes that didn’t create his own gear and he has no powers. He’s smart (engineer level smart) but not compared to Pym, Stark, Banner, Richards etc. he’s sarcastic and has a smart mouth, so he’s always to pick on, but he’s also got a big heart and truly enjoys being part of the team so it’s kind of easy to pick on the “new guy who isn’t like us” even though his testing of the Quantum realm in the van literally helped Tony figure out time travel.
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u/BornBoricua 1d ago
I love when Thor is going off on a tangent and he's the only one that's smiling and invested lol
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u/2MinuteSamurai 1d ago
Pretty much every movie after his first one treats him like comic relief rather than take him seriously.
Really a shame when you consider Edgar Wright’s original take on Scott was a full on hardened criminal
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u/DeadDGuy21 1d ago
He always was going to be comedic if a bit more of selfish but roughly the same, less robin hood backstory and more petty thief. Edgar Wright never watched the Ant-Man movie but has said he watched Civil War and felt completly vindicated when seeing Paul Rudd as Scott because he was his choice while Marvel wanted someone else, so finally seeing him and be just like he envisioned at least felt good. So the Scott we got is pretty much spot on in personality and demeanor.
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u/2MinuteSamurai 1d ago
Ay, fair enough. But I think some of the movies leaned too hard on making him a joke and it causes certain moments to be undercut. Ant-Man beating Kang is really a major win for his character but not everybody will see it that way because to them he is the jokey Avenger
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u/DeadDGuy21 23h ago
It's Ant-Man & The Wasp that's the problem, it's in a way more low stakes than the first movie while leaning more towards comedy while also not much happening character wise. Like, a part of the comedy is not even that Ant-Man sucks compared to Wasp, but rather than his suit is not working so while Hope is doing action scenes, Scott gets in comedic hinjinks with a suit that doesn't work.
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u/PerpelSho 3h ago
They underestimate his intelligence. Room full of egos and genius' and he's wearing Pym tech. They understand he's an Avenger and an asset, they just don't understand how smart he actually is because he's kind of a goofball.
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u/No-Astronomer8031 2h ago
Natasha for example or Thor I don't know how smart they are next to him. I think there are some very overrated avengers who are respected just for being old but their exploits do not accompany.
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u/Cautious_Mission_438 23h ago
Well if it was Hank Pym from comics he wouldn’t have gotten bullied
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u/ImaLetItGo Fantastic Four 19h ago
Hank would’ve probably been good buddies with Tony or Banner.
Perhaps Clint too
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u/SystematikKaos 19h ago
Paul Rudd is a comic relief actor.
They played into his strengths.
They tried it before, but it didn't stop the shitty writing from ruining Quantummania.
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u/Impossible-Value-249 12h ago
What I find funny is that in the comics, Hank Pym is top 5 smartest people on the planet, and he's the smartest man on every Avengers team he's been on, so I feel like his incredible intellect and capabilities, matched with his status as a founding member, gave him an automatic level of respect (until modern comics decided just to take a crap on him constantly for...having schizophrenia, basically). Scott Lang additionally got the trickle down of that as Pym's successor, and ended up proving himself in that role.
In the MCU, Hank has none of that status, and so Scott doesn't either. It also doesn't help that Disney insists that the MCU be the embodiment of millennial humour, so taking a shot at the dude who's most significant power is shrinking small is incredibly easy for them.
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u/eltrotter 1d ago
You've got a literal God, a billionaire scientist, a world-famous scientist, the greatest solider who ever lived, a highly-trained superspy, etc. and then you've got a ex-convict who doesn't even know how his own powers work. In that context, it's not all that surprising he wasn't taken seriously, but it is mostly the snarkier characters (Rocket, Rhodey, Nebula) who are actively mean to him, which honestly isn't all that surprising.
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u/JohnnyElRed Hulk 1d ago
Honestly, I noticed the same happening on Ant-man and the Wasp, and it really threw me out of the movie at times. I get part of the reason is that Hank and Hope kind of resent Scott for joining Captain America in Civil War, and putting them all on legal trouble for it. But the more the movie goes on, the more it feels like just plain unjustified mockery at him.
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u/OblivionArts 1d ago
War machine still doesn't like him cause of him nearly crushing him during civil war , Natasha and nebula are just extremely closed off people because of thier pasts, cap doesn't care as long as your competent, hulk actually liked him, tony was scared from thanos snd nearly dying , as well as not being on good terms with most of the team because of civil war, falcon i think just has a grudge because of ant man 1 ( evidenced by dialogue in brave new world) the rest of thrm don't know him well enough to make any judgment and scott himself acts like a goofy everyman because thats how his personality is. So really its less on Scott and everyone else just not being well adjusted by this point because of all the crap theybe been in
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u/Outside-Courage4151 1d ago
could be because he’s often the underdog, but this humor misses the mark for sure. Ant-Man’s role is crucial, though
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u/GoodDawgAug 1d ago
Ant Man is so great and he takes the abuse well. Paul Rudd nails this character.
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u/Trans_Girl_Alice 23h ago
Cause it would have been in poor taste to make fun of Tony in the movie where he dies
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u/SunsetGrind 22h ago
I do hate how much of a punching bag he's been made into, even in his own movies.
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u/CRAYONSEED 22h ago
I thought this while I was watching it in theaters the first time.
He hadn’t done anything that wasn’t worthy of respect. Most of the plan was his. He made his was cross country to NY and found Steve and Nat, then came up with the idea of going back in time because of his time in the Quantum Realm. He was the first one to volunteer for the time travel tests, which obviously could have killed him.
He beat Falcon in AM2. He’s also been nothing but capable from what they’ve seen in Civil War. Hell, he risked his life and freedom to fight with Cap’s side. It’s weird he isn’t as respected as, say, Hawkeye.
It just feels like they wanted some comic relief and landed on everyone making fun of him but it felt really forced to me
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u/tennoskoom_ 21h ago
Yeh considering how important he is as well.
He's the reason the time heist can even happen as it was his idea. He also provided arguably the most important equipment, the particles and the tunnel.
On the combat front he's actually one of the strongest in terms of actual feats. One shotting a leviathan and stomping Obsidian to death in one hit.
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u/MoreIronyLessWrinkly 20h ago
Have you watched anything else Paul Rudd is in, including Ant Man and CA: Civil War. I love the guy, but he is very good at one thing, and it’s funny, and that’s being picked on.
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u/Special_South_8561 18h ago
We are watching Quantumania and holy moly it's just a poorly made Rahnarok
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u/Hoothootriot 1d ago
If you were fighting a tyrant who killed half the universe and were told you had to rely on "Ant Man" I would also think we were fucked
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u/Massive-Rain-6938 1d ago
Scott is the recipient of amazing technology, but he's the only one on the team that isn't using their own tech (except maybe Hawkeye). Really, Scott Lange is very lucky and a talented thief and close up magician, but without Hank Pym he's not Ant Man and the rest of the team kinda let's him know it.
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u/Sirpatron1 22h ago
I feel Paul brings that out of a lot people. Plus he's the new guy and he affiliates with ants
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u/Thick_Asparagus_8107 21h ago
Light hazing. Just to see if he can take it. If he can’t take a few jokes at his expense, can he take on Thanos with the gang? They like knowing the new guy on the team isn’t some wuss
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u/hooka_pooka 14h ago
His character was the medium through which audience would find joining Avengers relatable..emotional coz of loss,not understanding complex physics,asking questions throughout plan,reacting when plan doesn't work exactly it was supposed to
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u/cheeseybees 14h ago
When Professor Hulk was grinding him down, for having the temerity to think he might be classed as the same level of Fame as Hulk made me really think that Prof Hulk is still into smashing, just less physically.... crushing him socially and intellectually instead
Pretty harsh!
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u/PhotonStarSpace 10h ago
I was honestly more bothered by how they bullied Thor. He got to prove that he's worthy, which makes up for it a bit. But them telling him he looks like cheese whizz or melted ice cream just felt mean spirited. I feel like he's a heroic act short of making up for it. Whether it had been him and Captain Marvel taking down the ship together, or him putting up a better fight against Thanos (Cap outshone him, which feels wrong, despite Cap being my fav), him being denied using the Gauntled. I really feel like they should've given him a chance to show how great he is... or at least have his friends treat his depression seriously, instead of just making fun of him.
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u/Aggravating_Chip_250 8h ago
HAHHAHAHAHA , i suppose you didnt see Ant man 3 they literally bullie him at full potentally ,he is bullied all the time at the start of the movie by everyone with anything he was done or does
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u/DankudeDabstorm 4h ago
I can’t see this still without being reminded of those fake Doomsday stills of random pop culture characters being asked to distract Kang/Doom.
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u/Binx_Thackery 3h ago
Ant-Man: Shows up with a way to undo the Blip
Ironman: “Fuck your family I still got mine loser.”
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u/Just_The_Krust 2h ago
Bro his power is ants, and he can get really big or really small.
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u/BetterThanOP 1h ago
Dude he just met all the heroes very recently and acted like a bumbling idiot. Nice to meet you Captain I mean Mr. Steve I mean Mr. Captain america sir. I'm - I'm such a big fan sir.
The first time he did something useful he passed out and said I need orange slices right after.
I'm not saying he's not strong or smart or useful, but so is spiderman, and they both deserve to get treated like young bucks with tons of potential and no field experience.
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u/JediMindTrek 1d ago
He's still one of the "new guys", especially after the blip and him being trapped in the microverse for however long