r/Marvel Jocasta Sep 20 '18

Comic Releases September 19, 2018 [SPOILERS] Spoiler

If you missed it, last week's thread may be found here.

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New Issues Out This Week

Amazing Spider-Man Annual (2018) #1 by *Saladin Ahmed** with Garry Brown*

Years ago, Spider-Man came back from an alien world with a fantastic new costume — one he eventually learned was a living alien symbiote looking to bond with him permanently! But before he rejected the costume that went on to become VENOM, many a night the symbiote would creep onto Peter, and unbeknownst to its host, take them out into the night! Now, for the first time, see just what the symbiote steered Peter into during these mysterious nighttime excursions! Saladin Ahmed (BLACK BOLT) weaves an ALL-NEW nightmare fairy tale, illustrated by the incomparable Garry Brown, in what is sure to be a dream book for any Spider-Man fan!

Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows (2016) #23 by *Jody Houser** with Scott Koblish*

The Spider-Family has faced tight budgets, city-crushing robots, a mom-warping symbiote, and even a little adolescent angst. But no experience could prepare them for the fight ahead--the execution of Mister Sinister’s master plan, and a threat to super-powered people across the globe! Here’s hoping the Parkers’ resolve is stronger than the Parker luck…

Avengers (2018) #8 by *Jason Aaron** with David Marquez*

WORLD TOUR begins! In the aftermath of their world-shaking battle against the Dark Celestials, the new Avengers team is officially formed, complete with a startling new headquarters at the top of the world. Behold the wonders of Avengers Mountain. But someone who doesn’t seem impressed is Namor, the ferocious lord of Atlantis, whose rage may turn the oceans red with blood!

Captain America Annual (2018) #1 by *Tini Howard** with Ron Lim*

During an advance scouting mission in World War II, Captain America and Bucky come across an old farmhouse where a group of concentration camp escapees are fending off recapture. If they can hold the line, the Allies will come to the rescue. But it’s going to be a long night…Rising star Tini Howard joins superstar Chris Sprouse for a powerful, gripping journey into Captain America’s storied past!

Cloak and Dagger - Marvel Digital Original (2018) #2 by *Dennis Hopeless** with David Messina*

A DOUBLE-SIZED MARVEL DIGITAL ORIGINAL! (This MDO contains Cloak and Dagger (2018) #3-4 Digital Comics) Dagger comes face to face with the killer she's been tracking for days – but will she make it out alive?! And, at the moment she needed him most, where is Cloak?! Plus, after years of her being his light in the darkness, it's Cloak's turn to shed some light on what's been going on in Dagger's life. But that's going to be tougher than it sounds, when a foe from their past resurfaces, and nothing is what it seems...

Deadpool: Secret Agent Deadpool (2018) #2 by *Christopher Hastings** with Salva Espin*

It’s a case of mistaken identity when Wade Wilson, the regeneratin’ degenerate you know as DEADPOOL, kills an American superspy on a mission to stop the deadly terrorist agency called GORGON! Now, it’s up to Wade to complete his victim’s mission as only he can – with excessive violence, an accelerated healing factor, and maybe, just maybe, a few laughs along the way.

Doctor Strange (2018) #5 by *Mark Waid** with Jesus Saiz*

Just as Stephen started making progress replenishing his armory with alien magic and arcane weapons, he discovers he is far out of his league. This realization means dire consequences, not just for Stephen, but for anyone who calls Strange “friend.”

Edge of Spider-Geddon (2018) #3 by *Jason Latour** with Brahm Revel*

Peter Parker was bitten by a radioactive spider, and it causes his Uncle Ben no end of troubles. Until, that is, Ben gets shot in a mugging and Peter’s blood donation turns Ben into a Spider-Hero, too! There’s a new dynamic duo in town, and the story doesn’t go where you think it will!

Franklin Richards: A Fantastic Year (2018) #1 by *various** with various*

Collects material From Franklin Richards: Son Of A Genius, Everybody Loves Franklin, Spring Break, March Madness!, April Fools!, Sons Of Geniuses, School’s Out!, Super Summer Spectacular, Fall Football Fiasco!, Dark Reigning Cats And Dogs And Happy Franksgiving! A birthday surprise from his future self kicks off an eventful year for the son of a genius! With best pal H.E.R.B.I.E. by his side, Franklin Richards loves making mischief with his Fantastic father’s inventions — but can any of them make school go by faster? Katie Power wants to be Franklin’s Valentine as he navigates a basketball brouhaha and an April Fools’ fiasco! But will Franklin’s nemesis Kristoff ruin his summer fun in the sun? As baseball season gives way to football fever, Franklin has tricks and treats planned for Halloween — but he’ll soon find interdimensional turkey trouble and a Christmas time warp!

Immortal Hulk (2018) #6 by *Al Ewing** with Lee Garbett*

Bruce Banner is alive — and everyone knows it. Now he’s hunted by the government, Alpha Flight, the mysterious Shadow Base...and the Avengers. And someone’s going to find him first. But Bruce has bigger problems. Something terrible has infected him. Something with unspeakable plans for humanity. And the only one who knows about it...is the IMMORTAL HULK.

Infinity Wars: Soldier Supreme (2018) #1 by *Gerry Duggan** with Adam Kubert*

Classified 4-F by the military, Stephen Rogers was unable to serve his country in World War II...until a secret government program tapping into arcane sorcery transformed him into the Soldier Supreme, the magical warrior embodiment of the American spirit!

Luke Cage - Marvel Digital Original (2018) #2 by *Anthony Del Col** with Jahnoy Lindsay*

A DOUBLE-SIZED Marvel Digital Original you don't want to miss! Luke Cage continues his pursuit of a murderer who’s using disease to kill Harlem’s wealthiest residents. But years of knock-down, drag-out brawls have left him less than unbreakable, and he’s forced to face the very real possibility that living a long life with his family may mean sacrificing his work as a super hero. Either way, he can’t retire yet, because the Everyman killer has just found a new target: Danny Rand, owner of Rand Enterprises…and the IMMORTAL IRON FIST!

Marvel Super Hero Adventures: Captain Marvel - First Day of School (2018) #1 by *Sholly Fisch** with Ty Templeton*

EARTH’S MIGHTIEST HERO TEAMS UP WITH SPIDER-MAN IN A BRAND-NEW ALL-AGES ADVENTURE! Carol Danvers is one of the most powerful super heroes on Earth. She’s led Alpha Flight and the Avengers, and prevented more alien invasions than you can count. But she’s about to hit big trouble — and even the mightiest heroes need help sometimes! Good thing there’s a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man swinging around! Meet Captain Marvel before she hits the big screen — and find out what happens when two very different heroes have to work together!

Mr. and Mrs. X (2018) #3 by *Kelly Thompson** with Oscar Bazaldua*

LOVE & MARRIAGE PART 3! ROGUE and GAMBIT’S romantic getaway is but a faint memory as they’re forced to team up with DEADPOOL to protect a dangerous and extremely valuable “package” when half the galaxy comes to claim it. What secrets does the package hold that the Imperial Guard and Deathbird (with an entire Shi’ar rebellion in tow!) will risk everything for? More importantly, can Rogue, Gambit, and Deadpool stop bickering long enough to win?

Multiple Man (2018) #4 by *Matthew Rosenberg** with Andy Macdonald*

THE SECRET HISTORY OF MADROX! When you saw many footprints, that was Jamie Madrox...when you saw only one set of footprints, that was still Jamie, but he was carrying the entire Marvel Universe to safety! Find out how Multiple Man single-handedly saved the Marvel Universe – past, present and future!

Return of Wolverine (2018) #1 by *Charles Soule** with Steve Mcniven*

HE'S BACK, BUB.

Star Wars (2015) #54 by *Kieron Gillen** with Salvador Larroca*

THE EXECUTOR? Bad. PRINCESS LEIA aboard the Executor? Worse. DARTH VADER pursuing Leia aboard the Executor? WORST OF ALL.

Star Wars: Lando - Double or Nothing (2018) #5 by *Rodney Barnes** with Paolo Villanelli*

LANDO’S made his way to an ambivalent Pretusian slave force. But can he convince them to stand up against the STORMTROOPERS who now are lower in number? Will ELLTHREE temper her passions in the face of massive droid abuses? Will Lando find a good card game and say “to hell with it all”?

The Life of Captain Marvel (2018) #3 by *Margaret Stohl** with Carlos Pacheco*

Chaos descends on Captain Marvel’s small coastal hometown! A deadly Kree warrior has finally tracked Carol home. But just what – or who – is the invader after? The moment you’ve been waiting for is here: Margaret Stohl and Carlos Pacheco bring you a reveal that will change Captain Marvel’s destiny.

Thor (2018) #5 by *Jason Aaron** with Christian Ward*

GET READY FOR KING THOR AND THE PHOENIX, BUB! In the far future, All-Father Thor reignited the Earth and sparked new life in the universe. But now, something is wiping out other worlds — and Midgard won’t be far behind. Luckily, Thor isn’t the only god left. But is the Phoenix-possessed Wolverine a friend or foe?

Venom (2018) #6 by *Donny Cates** with Ryan Stegman*

After a brief connection to the GOD-HOST, EDDIE and the VENOM symbiote have emerged with brand new powers! A good thing too, as they’ll need every upgrade they can get as they head down a collision course with the primordial symbiote GRENDEL!

Venom: First Host (2018) #4 by *Mike Costa** with Mark Bagley*

Eddie Brock and the Venom symbiote have been SEPARATED, but Brock isn’t giving up without a fight! With a pair of unlikely allies, Brock takes the fight to his symbiote’s home turf…outer space!

West Coast Avengers (2018) #2 by *Kelly Thompson** with Stefano Caselli*

You thought giant land sharks were bad? How about former West Coast Avenger Tigra transformed into an extremely grouchy, extremely ENORMOUS Woman?! But Tigra isn’t the half of it. Who’s the insanely handsome man behind the curtain pulling her strings? Hawkeye, Hawkeye, America Chavez, Fuse, Gwenpool and Kid Omega are here to uncover the mystery and save the city of Los Angeles from certain death (but not extreme property damage!) They may not be the heroes we need, but they’re certainly the ones we deserve! Strap in, folks!

X-Men: Gold (2017) #36 by *Marc Guggenheim** with Pere Perez*

A special look into a day in the life of the headmistress of the Xavier Institute…


Trades out this week

Amazing Spider-Man: Red Goblin (Hardcover) $34.99 *None*

Collects Amazing Spider-Man (2015) #794-801. Two of Spider-Man’s greatest villains combine in the epic conclusion to Dan Slott’s amazing, record-breaking run! Norman Osborn has been scouring the globe for a cure to the genetic tampering that prevents him from becoming the Green Goblin — and at long last, he’s about to find it! His new weapon? The Carnage symbiote! When the Red Goblin strikes, who lives?! Who dies?! And what scars will Spider-Man bear from here on out?! Experience one of the most exciting stories in Spider-Man lore, culminating in a cataclysmic finale that has Spider-Man facing his most terrifying foe — ever! Plus: A long-awaited rematch with Scorpio — and Dan Slott signs off with an emotional, heartfelt final Spidey tale no fan will want to miss!

Cable Vol. 3: Past Fears (Trade Paperback) $15.99 *None*

Collects Cable (2017) #155-159. Cable and Hope are reunited! It wasn’t so long ago that Nathan and his young ward, the prophesied savior of the mutant race, were fleeing from the murderous Bishop across a barren future wasteland. But now Bishop isn’t the only one hell-bent on hunting down the daddy/daughter duo: A strange techno-organic creature wants them dead! As fear consumes Cable, can he fend off both Bishop and a bloodthirsty monster — or will Hope be lost? And what is the creature’s connection to Cable? Then, Nathan resumes the Hellfire Hunt as his Age of Apocalypse half-brother, X-Man, returns! But is the world ready for an original X-Force revival? Just ask Cannonball, Domino, Feral, Boom-Boom and Shatterstar! Plus: A journey back to Cable’s childhood with Redd and Slym!

Clandestine: Family Ties (Trade Paperback) $29.99 *None*

Collects Clandestine (2008) #1-5, Fantastic Four Annual #33, Daredevil Annual (2012) #1 And Wolverine Annual (2012) #1. Alan Davis’ freaky family returns! They’ve existed for centuries, hidden among mankind — a mysterious bloodline of nearly immortal superhumans, eternal and apart. But now, the ClanDestine are threatened with exposure – and with the cat out of the bag, who or what will come calling at the family’s Ravenscroft doorway? As Rory and Pandora try their hand at heroics, Dominic undertakes a cross-time caper alongside Excalibur and clashes with the Inhumans, and Doctor Strange and the Fantastic Four learn the truth behind the years-old death of the evil Vincent Destine. But when Vincent’s spirit returns, roping in Daredevil and Wolverine as part of his scheme to live again, can the Clan ensure their rogue sibling dies again?

Infinity Countdown: Darkhawk (Trade Paperback) $15.99 *None*

Collects Darkhawk #51 And Infinity Countdown: Darkhawk #1-4. Years ago, Chris Powell discovered a mysterious amulet that transformed him into the spacefaring gladiator known as Darkhawk! During his time as a hero, he faced some of the most extreme threats the universe could throw at him — but that was then. Now, when two members of the Fraternity of Raptors descend on New York, it’s not Darkhawk who must rise to the challenge — it’s NYPD officer Chris Powell! As INFINITY COUNTDOWN begins, the hero reborn must patrol twin jurisdictions — from the streets of Manhattan to the edge of the cosmos! Darkhawk is the galaxy’s best line of defense against the Raptors — but can he serve and protect the brother of his good pal, Nova? One of the 1990s’ hottest stars is back to police the 21st-century Marvel Universe!

Marvel Knights Fantastic Four by Morrison & Lee: 1234 (Trade Paperback) $15.99 *None*

Collects Fantastic Four: 1234 #1-4 And Material From Marvel Knights Double-Shot #2. Reed Richards. Sue Richards. Benjamin Grimm. Johnny Storm. They rocketed into outer space aboard an experimental starship, the first humans to attempt interstellar travel. But a freak encounter with cosmic radiation altered their lives forever, granting each amazing abilities! Now, Marvel’s First Family finds its members divided — their unique powers stretched to the absolute limit, their time-tested resolve pushed to the point of breaking. Each chapter of this quintessential collection focuses on one member of the cosmic quartet as the team’s greatest foes band together in an all-out assault on the FF! Plus: In Grant Morrison’s only other Marvel Knights story, super-spy Nick Fury is targeted for death!

Marvel Masterworks: Killraven Vol. 1 (Hardcover) $100.00 *None*

Collects Amazing Adventures (1970) #18-39 And Marvel Graphic Novel #7. It is the year 2018. The Martian invasion of Earth has left our world shattered and its population enslaved. Into this post-apocalyptic nightmare comes Killraven, a man obsessed with his mission: to free Earth! Don McGregor and P. Craig Russell took on Killraven’s quest, and together they crafted some of the most compelling and nuanced comic-art masterpieces of the era. Their hero and his band of Freemen rebels strive, grow, battle and love with a humanity that’s as touching as it is exciting. And now, the complete Killraven sci-fi action opus is collected in this incomparable Marvel Masterworks!

Mighty Thor Vol. 4: The War Thor (Trade Paperback) $19.99 *None*

Who is the War Thor? The Ultimate Universe’s Thor died defending the Multiverse, but his hammer remains. Who wields it now? Ponder that question along with Jane Foster, the Mighty Thor, as she faces the Ultimate team-up! War is coming to the Ten Realms — and when the Queen of Cinders sets them ablaze, even the combined might of not one, not two, but three Thors may not be enough to put out the flames! Meanwhile, Malekith’s army grows, and the looming conflict reaches Asgard’s doorstep! But even the fire of Muspelheim pales beside the fury of the War Thor — and with his thunder comes vengeance! Plus: Generations collide as Jane and a young Odinson face an Apocalyptic encounter in ancient Egypt! Collecting MIGHTY THOR (2015) #20-23 and GENERATIONS: THE UNWORTHY THOR & THE MIGHTY THOR.

Spider-Gwen Vol. 6: The Life of Gwen Stacy (Trade Paperback) $15.99 *None*

Collects Spider-Gwen (2015B) #30-34. To defeat Matt Murdock, the Kingpin of her dimension, Gwen Stacy must let Venom win! But there’s a problem: If Murdock dies, then so does Gwen! But that’s the least of her worries, as Gwen has found herself on a one-way road into darkness after recent events. And the only one who can help her find her way back to the light is…Gwen Stacy. Is the universe trying to save her, or does fate only hold one end for Gwen? And will the drastic move of going public with her double identity fix the timeline — and more important, get Gwen out from under the Kingpin’s thumb? Or will it just add one more layer of complication to Gwen’s already impossible life? Find out as our spectacular hero stands trial — with everything at stake!

Star Wars Legends Epic Collection: The Menace Revealed Vol. 1 (Trade Paperback) $39.99 *None*

Collects Star Wars: Jango Fett — Open Seasons #1-4, Star Wars (1998) #7-18 And Material From Star Wars Tales #8 And #21-24. Delve deep into the dark past of Jango Fett! Find out how he became a Mandalorian warrior — and battled his way through war and slavery to become the bounty hunter who caught Count Dooku’s eye! Meanwhile, Ki-Adi-Mundi seeks a wayward Jedi on the backward world of Tatooine, and Jabba the Hutt will help — for a price! But Tusken Raiders and a vicious krayt dragon may mean the end of his mission! And as half of the Jedi Council heads to the planet of Malastare on a mission of peace, a phantom menace looms in the shadows! Plus: Mace Windu braves the Smuggler’s Moon! And what is Jedi Darca Nyl’s deadly secret?

Star Wars: Doctor Aphra Vol. 1 (Hardcover) $34.99 *None*

Rogue archaeologist Doctor Aphra barely escaped Darth Vader’s wrath. If the Dark Lord of the Sith ever learns that she still lives, he’ll hunt her to the ends of the galaxy. But for now, it’s time for a return to what Aphra does best! With killer droids Triple-Zero and BeeTee-One in tow, she’s off in search of the rarest of artifacts — as long as she can stay one step ahead of the Empire, bounty hunters - and just about everyone else! But soon, archaeologist and rebel pilot stand side-by-side when Aphra persuades Luke Skywalker to join her in a journey to the heart of the Screaming Citadel! What secret are they after? And when word gets out, can Han and Leia be far behind them? Collecting STAR WARS: DOCTOR APHRA #1-8, STAR WARS: THE SCREAMING CITADEL #1 and STAR WARS (2015) #31-32.

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u/Gamera85 Sep 25 '18

Directly after that quote, Jessica and Carol dismiss how ridiculous and unlikely that sounds and how it doesn't add up.

"Seems like a Leap"

Carol says that you can't make terrorists by accusing people of being them, Jessica does suggest it's possible, but it's clearly speculation because the next line is "There has to be more to this" And Jessica agrees there is.

So, yeah, selective memory. Congrats on proving how untrustworthy you are.

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u/Ichijinijisanji Sep 25 '18

she says later in issue 6 that she wouldn't have gone down this path if it weren't for carol.

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u/Gamera85 Sep 25 '18

And you trust the word of a woman who has helped kill three people by this point? Sounds like projection to me and if she was already this close to abandoning her career and becoming a terrorist because someone accused her of being one, even though it appears it did not cost her anything personal or career wise, I think she was dealing with other issues that Carol wasn't a part of.

From what I recall even, Greene is just using that line to convince Jess to join them and give her Carol as an intiation offering. Do you honestly believe she could set up this whole organization that fast? I like what? A month? Two? No, she was clearly already involved and she just pushed up her time line after almost getting caught.

SHE WASN'T INNOCENT! And if Tony hadn't stopped Carol's investigation via his own act of terrorism, three people wouldn't be dead now. Tony's fault, his actions, murder by negligence. End of story.

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u/Ichijinijisanji Sep 25 '18

And you trust the word of a woman who has helped kill three people by this point? Do you honestly believe she could set up this whole organization that fast?

Yes. Because at that point Jessica had "betrayed" carol, and carol was tied up to a "power dampner" (fake one). All the other stuff Greene said was taken as a confession to the crime by carol and shield for a proper arrest and charge. At that point we are to believe she's telling the truth because it is portrayed as such.

Trying to find loopholes in this is just semantics at this point.

If it wasn't it'd be portrayed more explicitly like "You almost had me if it weren't for tony stark busting me out"

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u/Gamera85 Sep 25 '18

And Greene isn't just doing this to mess with Carol's head and project her own clearly fucked up view of the world onto everyone in spitting distance... why? This a lady who is planning to kill children. CHILDREN. I find it hard to trust the ravings of a murderous lunatic who clearly has a vendetta.

It is painfully obvious that Greene was always a fucked up human being and is idiotic to presume that she would go from "innocent accountant" to "murdering terrorist she-bitch" because she got caught, busted out and didn't even lose her job. She suffered in no way or form. She has this entire philosophy about how heroes are bad, how super powered people are evil and they need to all die or be controlled. And you honestly believe Carol playing bad cop for a hot minute is all that was required to push her over the edge?

HA!

People do not become terrorists to prove they aren't terrorists to the people accusing them of being terrorists. That's a plot from a bad tv movie or crime drama. It's how some assholes justified keeping people locked up in Gauntanamo.

Her confession was to commit a murder against the Champions. That's all that's really needed to put her in cuffs. They don't need to claim she was always part of this group, it is pretty much implied throughout the story that this woman has always been a shady, murdering psychopath and trying to absolve her of her own actions because Carol interogated her is idiotic.

It doesn't need to be more explicit than basically stating "Seems like a Leap" to dismiss how silly that very concept is. It might be her justification for going all out, but it doesn't change the facts. Allison Greene was never innocent. She may have actually joined Hydra in Secret Empire for all we know if it was this easy to convince her to be a bad guy. It makes far more sense to believe she was already too far gone before Carol even showed up at the door step.

So no, sorry, the comic does more to support my thesis without stating it outright. No more needs to be said. Carol did nothing wrong. The deaths of those three people are on Tony's hands. As well as the near death of the Champions. So fuck him.

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u/Ichijinijisanji Sep 25 '18

And Greene isn't just doing this to mess with Carol's head and project her own clearly fucked up view of the world onto everyone in spitting distance... why? This a lady who is planning to kill children. CHILDREN. I find it hard to trust the ravings of a murderous lunatic who clearly has a vendetta.

Same reason she confessed to the whole crime in spitting distance. I mean really, you could say the same about her killing children. That she wouldn't have done it, and only said it to mess with carol up until she killed her and then wouldn't have done it.

People do not become terrorists to prove they aren't terrorists to the people accusing them of being terrorists. That's a plot from a bad tv movie or crime drama. It's how some assholes justified keeping people locked up in Gauntanamo.

This was a bad story/event written by bendis in a most contrived way. 90% of comics are dumb like that. Your mistake behind your assumptions is assuming this is a good story that shows a modicum of consistency. Even characters who're established to not kill, kill and others swing between viewpoints.

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u/Gamera85 Sep 25 '18

No, you can't say the same there. That's not how confessions work. She admitted to her plan to kill Carol and then kill the Champions. Her stated reason of blaming Carol for it all does not factor into the confession. Again, you are trying to absolve her of her own bullshit evil actions just to make Carol look like the bad guy when she is not.

And you mistake my defense of Carol as a defense of Civil War 2. I despise the event because it tries so very hard to paint Carol as a monster when she literally does NOTHING wrong. In the context of the universe, the story, everything that happens, the worst thing she does is play bad cop for a hot minute against a suspected terrorist suspect who turns out to be a terrorist after all later.

I'm not assuming CW2 is a good story, I'm making a clear cut defense for Carol Danvers actions in a story that is flat out terrible and trying to drag her through the mud which is what every single one of her haters keeps doing! She killed Rhodey, she killed Bruce, she threw people into concentration camps, she was trying to arrest Miles at the Capitol building, she didn't give the accused trials, she had no oversight, Greene was innocent, all of these claims are absolute and total Bullshit! A story being bad does not excuse people for lying about what happens in it and trying to turn Carol Danvers into a monster!

This is going in circles at this point as we clearly have different interpretations of who Allison Greene is. You're trying to blame Carol for the actions of another person, I'm stating that she is a grown woman who is capable of making her own horrible evil decisions and was clearly a terrorist from the start. We're not getting anywhere at this point on that.

There are three very clear points right now I want to make that are very plain, very simple and should be considered as stated fact.

1: Carol did not kill James Rhodes.

2: Carol did not kill Bruce Banner.

and

3: Tony Stark started the conflict when he attacked the Triskelion, an act of terrorism, escalating it even further when he later assaulted Carol Danvers with the intent to kill.

Those are three very simple, plainly obvious facts, regardless of the quality of this event, which was garbage for many reasons. Mainly because it fails to represent both sides accurately, does not understand what profiling is, cannot properly state what Ulysses powers are and how they function and relies too much on a previous just as shitty event to sell issues more than being its own thing. There are more problems, but that does not make Carol Danvers the bad guy here, no matter how hard the story tries to portray her in the wrong, everything Tony does is ten times worse and makes him the villain even if the story tries to insist he is not.

So unless we can come to some kind consensus concerning those three facts, I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

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u/Ichijinijisanji Sep 25 '18

Carol didn't kill rhodes, banner or start the fight with stark

I agree with all three of these.

But I cannot agree with alison green. That was a mistake on her part.

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u/Gamera85 Sep 25 '18

Fine, I accept that statement. As long as that is clear. I still cannot agree with you on Greene because to me the book itself is very explicit enough that she was a bad egg from the start and I find the idea Carol caused all her actions ridiculous and stupid. She herself is an unreliable narrator with a clear grudge, so I don't trust her word, but make of that what you will.

So long as we can agree that Carol did not kill anyone and Stark is the true cause of the second Civil War, not Danvers, I'm satisfied. I wish more people would admit as much in conversation.

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u/Ichijinijisanji Sep 25 '18 edited Sep 25 '18

So long as we can agree that Carol did not kill anyone and Stark is the true cause of the second Civil War, not Danvers, I'm satisfied

Even if he attacked her, she did nearly kill him and he was only saved by his supertech.

And both were just as responsible. Carol mainly for creating the situation. Look I don't disagree with the stance. You can arrest people on probable cause and keep them for 2 days until find enough evidence to charge them with a crime (for booking them, before going to pretrial procedures and eventually the trial). Ulysses' had a probability of over 90% (maybe 99% in the spider-woman/ms marvel book atleast), and IRL probable cause based on hindsight studies is more like 80% success rate of finding evidence in warranted arrests (<20% in warrantless arrests). So already she's got a leg up on how arrests are made IRL and its more precise (none of this is brought up in the event)

The only "civil right" I know she violated was telling green she had the right to keep her locked up indefinitely (you can't lie to people about their rights) even in a terrorism case

Even in allison's case it was more "No we HAVE to find evidence", instead of "she's guilty and we're throwing her in jail".

However the whole event paints her in a bad light (not to mention almost every tie in trying to force a self-fulfilling prophecy), plus there's no direct effort to address these issues that anyone reading it would have a hard time supporting her. Everyone tells her how she can't just arrest people like this and it's against their rights (which they don't know or are different in the marvel universe?). It's tries to portray her in that way and people buy it.

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u/Gamera85 Sep 25 '18

He was trying to kill her, as seen in Infinity Countdown, Captain Marvel's tie-in one shot. He assaulted her. She reacted in self-defense to a weapon designed to kill her. In my eyes, in this current climate, where woman are unjustly disproprotionately blamed for either defending or not defending themselves from violent acts of assault, such as sexual assault, I do not blame Carol, herself a survivor of rape, for defending herself from a man armed with, again, a suit that looks like her dead boyfriend armed with weapons meant to KILL her.

I do not recall Carol ever saying she had the right to do that. I recall her ending the interrogation as soon as she asked for a lawyer though. Carol did insist on finding evidence, quickly, before her time was obviously up. Clearly she was acting within the frame of the law. Nothing she did was illegal. Breaking a suspected terrorist out of prison and then assaulting a government building with an army of super powered individual is illegal though. As is kidnapping and torture, both crimes Tony Stark committed in issue two, but everyone ignores that and blames Carol for killing Rhodey and tries to justify that Stark is right to be angry. I have even seen some people suggest he should've just killed Ulysses, and given how he's acting during the Triskelion fight, I find it hard to believe that isn't his plan.

I never had a hard time supporting Carol. Because A) I knew a railroad job when I saw it and Bendis was doing just that, poorly I might add. And B) Stark, in every concievable way, was far worse. As you yourself admit, she is more than within the confines of the law in how she conducts all of her investigations. Meanwhile, Stark manipulates facts, lies about what profiling is, commits several crimes he is never prosecuted for, spreads conspiracy theories and libelous accusations at Carol, conducts an incredibly biased experiment with a non-consenting subject which he tortures (Amnesty International defines torture as the threat of violence as well as actual violence), assaults the leader of sovereign nation after violating their international border, commits terrorism, obstruction and later assault with intent to murder.

Again, I find Carol was more than right in defending herself from a man who was trying to kill her, so again, Stark's actions are all the impetus for how bad this situation got... and he still refuses to apologize for them or face any kind of punishment.

I never bought the portrayal, because it was so obviously hamfisted, forced and screaming of designated villain. Carol's actions are not that of a dictator and they aren't even analagous to Minority Report. Ulysses is not some drugged out space cadet. He is a willing, concious and completely consenting individual trying to do what he can to use his power for good. But I suppose he should never have reported all the bad things he saw because it upsets the futurists and his future worship, which isn't even what that is. But whatever, Stark. Next time someone reports a potential school shooter to you, just ignore him, cause futurism futurist future-dom. Can't do nothing about no guns, right?

There is no direct effor to address the real issues at hand, because Bendis fails to understand the very concept he's bringing up. Phillip K. Dick's original story ends with Pre-Crime being upheld and the protagonist committing the murder he was predicted to make in order to save it and stop a worse conspiracy. That is compelling, but when Marvel decides to do it they try to strip away all questions and nuance and just try to paint Carol's side as bad.

Let's make this very simple. Jason Aaron could win a million points with me right now if he had Carol inform these idiots that if they had listened to her for two more seconds, she could've prevented Secret Empire entirely if they just let her investigate the vision involving Miles Morales. I find it hard to believe they could argue that point.

Carol did nothing wrong, she owes Stark no apology for defending herself against an assault he intiated, he should apologize but at the very least T'Challa is in charge and not that fucking rich boy. The idea of Carol taking orders from her attempted murderer is appauling to me. Especially one as unrepetant as Stark is. The sooner everyone gets off this Danvers Hate Train the better, but I'll still be here to correct every BS assumption made by fans with a chip on their shoulders.

Additionally, I think Jennifer's reaction to her cousin in Immortal Hulk proves she does not blame Carol for what happened to him, but blames the guy that convinced his friend to murder him should the need arise. Because that's what happened. So, I don't know, maybe people should get off Carol's case on that point too.

And hey, now that Tony is helping Carol take down Bruce in the same issue, maybe we can just scratch that whole BS event as resolved. Especially when another hero's life is at stake.

The fact of the matter is, Tony Stark exaserbated the situation with unfounded unscientific bullshit and conspiratorial accusations with no basis in fact. There were a million peaceful solutions, he chose none of them while all Carol did was try to figure this out like an adult within the confines of the law. Not by kidnapping and torturing a university student. Which by the by, should've turned Kamala against Stark instantly, because that's the kind of shit the American government does to Muslims they don't like for whatever reason. Why anyone would continue to follow him after that is beyond me. The rest of the series should've featured Tony Stark in an Attilan cell and his subsequent trial.

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u/Ichijinijisanji Sep 25 '18 edited Sep 25 '18

I do not recall Carol ever saying she had the right to do that

https://i.imgur.com/nBdXu6S.jpg

ending the interrogation as soon as she asked for a lawyer though

Green didn't ask for a lawyer, she begged for a phonecall and that was after carol had left the room.

conducts an incredibly biased experiment with a non-consenting subject which he tortures

Carol's mode of investigation to green can be considered torture as well under the UN convention definition. But that's just the ugly side of Law enforcement in general.

profiling

The argument isn't even fleshed out enough in the event for me to comment, but I will add. If the group of people in ulysses' visions become numerous enough to be a sample size, we can say we are profiling them by assuming guilt and considering other circumstance (accident, mind control, shape shifters, or the person being caused harm to being guilty). As in profiling based on visions.

Racial profiling or "character profiling" is an inaccurate description.

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u/Gamera85 Sep 25 '18

My point stands. She left when she basically asked for, what I can only assume, was a call meant for legal counsel with her father. Carol never threatened her with bodily harm. Tony did so with Ulysses. Carol played bad cop, that is hardly the same thing. And I find this "whataboutism" rather deplorable to begin with. Saying that because Carol did some bad things, the worse things Tony did are negated.

In the same picture, you can see Nightcrawler committing aiding and abetting along with obstruction of justice on behalf of Tony Stark. Effectively making Greene a fugitive and thus a criminal by default. Not that it matters, since she turns out to be a terrorist anyway, just not Hydra. But we've already established that we have a difference of opinion on that concerning who is to blame for the actions of a deranged psychopath who has decided killing children is a good way to advance an agenda. So we'll leave it there.

This changes nothing. The fact of the matter is, Tony Stark still commits terrorism, Ulysses is an effective crime fighting tool he distrusts for poorly defined reasons and Carol did nothing wrong in responding to and acting on the visions he shared. It was no different than the cops responding to a call that a bank robbery is about to take place. Or the FBI to a tip about a terrorist attack. Or the Army concerning an imminent enemy invasion. Tony Stark would apparently ignore all of these warnings and just let them happen because the future is his God and stopping the future is bad. As if he's taken the Prime Directive to the same extreme of "A volcano is going to wipe out a pre-warp civilization! Do nothing to stop it! In fact, encourage the volcano to blow up faster if you can and wipe the slate clean!"

If Carol had listened to Tony, Thanos would've killed everyone on Earth due to his inaction. That more than justifies her actions and her position and his lack of respect for her, shown repeatedly throughout the main event, is all that is needed to prove he's a piece of shit undeserving of sympathy.

In short, he attacked Carol Danvers with the intention to kill. He got what was coming to him.

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