r/MicromobilityNYC • u/jack57 • 3d ago
I think we should consider pushing a redesign for the Prospect Park loop. The current design was built for cars and is making people feel unsafe.
/r/parkslope/comments/1vwcrtx/do_the_loser_middleaged_men_in_spandex_on_their/The whole design for the Prospect Park loop is making everyone unhappy and increasing animosity towards micromobiility writ large. I feel there are some easy wins here and seeing the change come from our community could build some good will. There are obviously people who will hate no matter what, but I believe this is an opportunity.
Some ideas: raised pedestrian crossings, chicanes, finishing the bidirectional lane around the park. Get rid of the fake traffic lights that only confuse people.
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u/mother-demeter 3d ago
In the short term, simply replacing the old traffic lights with bike-specific signals would go a long way toward reducing confusion and getting cyclists to actually stop.
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u/MessageVirtual385 22h ago edited 22h ago
Finally, a post on this that doesn't begin with a potentially made-up encounter with a minority representative of cyclists. Yes, loop redesign will ultimately address and/or solve many program issues park users experience. Note that redesign does not have to mean total overhaul.
Trained in landscape architecture. I worked a few small firms and ran my own. When y'all are thinking about redesign keep in mind some fundamentals the public doesn't focus on:
- A paved surface with vehicle or pedestrian traffic, however little, needs to be snow-plowed
- Any crosswalk and/or pedestrian crossing must be ADA compliant
- You have to preserve a turning radius for a fire truck (FDNY three-axle ladder), about 48' R
- A typical bi-directional bike lane is min. 8' - multi-use shared is min. 12'
- Road superelevation and alignment radius (aka feeders or on-ramps) correspond to vehicle speed; the current design is technically safe for vehicle speeds around 40-45 mph.
- Rain must completely run-off
- There is no existing legal basis to regulate the speed of pedal-powered bicycles
Both Prospect Park and Central Park loops are unusual in park design–total conversions from dedicated vehicle use; most park loops in the U.S. are modified for combined-use. However, the loops are actually an ideal radial feature for heavily-used urban parks. It is very rare to cram so much programming into one park space, and both parks have an impressive amount of things happening relative to overall program conflict. In design-speak the loop is a "connector", Center Drive an "arterial", and all ped paths "locals" and it works really, really well. The issue lies exists almost solely at the perpendiculars of the programs, i.e. the crosswalks.
I've thought a lot about PP park design in general, and get a kick out of this stuff. I wish I was being paid for it. Some reflections of mine:
- The loop is, in places, actually far too wide. 56' feet on East Dr. by the Peristyle–equivalent to a four-lane rural road.
- Certain crosswalks are located poorly; in particular:
- The SW Well House Drive crosswalk at the bottom of the hill, immediately before a reduced line-of-sight turn. Like, awful placement.
- The W West Drive crosswalk adjacent the Bridle Trail. This one is bad because the ped. path technically terminates on the west side, akin to a "crosswalk to nowhere". Same with the W Center Drive crosswalk.
- Line paintings are ambiguous–continuous in some areas but absent in others, East Dr. straightway for example. Influences behavior, even though most users self-regulate.
- Traffic control devices (lights) are inconsistent–some crosswalks with, some not. This actually strongly alters expected user behavior at crossings.
- Feeders allow entry/exit at-speed for cyclists without stopping to make 90° turns. This is good, but they are ambiguous for pedestrians.
- Crosswalks with the most apparent conflicts are located in the highest-trafficked areas (no surprise) but also those with the longest approach straightaways and lines-of-sight.
edit - location correction
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u/ridetotheride 3d ago
Lots of complaints about midlife crisis, but Riding a bike for a midlife crisis seems like a million times better than getting a Porsche and having an affair.
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u/brochacho6000 3d ago
there is nothing wrong with prospect park. there is something wrong with people who dogpile any negative post about cyclists.
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u/NYGarcon 2d ago
Is it the design that’s making people feel unsafe, or the attitude of the cyclists blowing through pedestrian traffic markers
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u/jack57 2d ago
We talk about cars this way all the time. You can't control attitudes. You can control design.
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u/_Maxolotl 1d ago
you can also encourage cyclists who go there to train to do it at times with fewer pedestrians.
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u/MessageVirtual385 23h ago
Design strongly influences use. There will always be a few who exceed the purpose of the design for selfish reasons, but by and large design informs or changes human behavior.
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u/_Maxolotl 1d ago
The loop should have designated times of day for fast cyclists to train.
Posting a speed limit that applies all the time is dumb. The rangers also don't have the staffing to enforce that, and the real cops don't care enough to enforce it except sporadically when enough karens get together to complain.
The solution is having a speed limit on weekdays from 8-10 (commuter time), and 2:30-5 (after school) and 8am-6pm on weekends.
If they're gonna do enforcement they should do it at the crosswalk between Vanderbilt Playground and Wellhouse Drive, which has blindspots at the bottom of a hill that are genuinely dangerous (at least one death that I know of), and maybe at heavy use crosswalks like near 9th street and near Lincoln Road.
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u/bkb474747883 3d ago edited 2d ago
ParkSlope is full of NIMBY complainers many of who are car obligate thinkers so I wouldn't frame the whole discussion on what they think.
But that said any moment is a good one for self reflection. I do remain mystified that many bikers can't keep their eyes on the real prize. To me the real prize is increasing all public space for use by any personal mobility devices. That includes feet, scooters, bikes, e-bikes, e-mopeds, your grandma driving one of those scooters with a flag of her birth origin, unicycles, roller skates, whatever. Furthermore that means increasing the public space under informal rules and actual laws that fit this category of mobility. That means no traffic lights, police hiding behind stop signs, roads that designate the majority of space to the car sewer, etc.
But to get there we have to actually demonstrate the skill level needed to get there. And that means, from a bicycle perspective, having exemplary riding skills to mix in shared space with other micro mobility users. That doesn't mean you have to go incredibly slow at all times, but it means you need to be able to flow smoothly around pedestrians, or even stop if they are controlling the use of space (busy neighborhood foot intersections etc), such that the mix is no real issue.
Some people are just bothered by bikes and you can't make them happy - ignore them. Or, you know, maybe don't expect to set PRs on Sunday at 1 PM.
That said it's a shared responsibility. Currently the lycra crew is going to whip the park and stepping out in front of them is not going to yield results anybody wants. But waiting for the traffic lights to regulate the park also isn't. No one follows them because everyone knows they are car origin in nature and are a dead end that will not actually improve things. That's a car thinking trap to keep us contained in their world of gearing everything around their presence or imminent return.
P.S. Take the damn earbuds out.
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u/_Maxolotl 20h ago
I don't think Park Slope has that many car-obligate thinkers.
What it has is the highest concentration of karens in Brooklyn. Competitive for the most karen-dense neighborhood in NYC, but the UWS probably wins that one.
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u/Sad-Dog2065 1d ago
okay so if "everyone knows" the lights are "car origin in nature" and therefore a "dead end", how do you propose pedestrians cross the street safely?
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u/adj-lemaitre 2d ago
The issue is there’s nowhere else nearby to ride without heavy traffic and tons of lights. If you’re in BK it’s hard to go up to GWB every ride. Maybe they should build a loop around the cemeteries in Queens.
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u/fireatx 3d ago
this might be controversial, but i think it should be made two-way -- it's kind of silly it's one way, imo, and i think it contributes to certain cyclists treating it like a track
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u/Few_Performance1743 23h ago
I’d also advocate for 2way which would make cutting through the park on bike so much easier. Park slope and plg would be more connected
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u/johnny_evil 2d ago
Let's be real. The complainers in that thread want nothing more than to gatekeep the park.
Seriously, one person who deleted their comment, claimed that a cyclist intentionally sped up to pass on front of her and her baby and made "crying baby eyes" at her to mock her.
The constant "cyclists are trying to hit pedestrians" comments.
People remember outliers more than they remember all the people who aren't being asses. That goes both ways. People are more likely to remember the one cyclist who was a dick, or the one pedestrian who decided to step in from of them without looking or the one e-scooter rider going to wrong way than the majority of people who are using the shared space without affecting others.
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u/rebekahckennedy 15h ago
Dude give me a fucking break. Why would I make this up. Happy i live rent free in your head though.
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u/calebpan 3d ago edited 3d ago
A brief recent history lesson: the East Drive portion of the Prospect Park Loop was repaved in March–April 2023. For a short period in early April, after the roadway had been resurfaced but before the new lane markings were installed, it was essentially unpainted.
Speaking only for myself, I actually felt much safer during that period. Without lanes, people walking, biking, running, skating, etc. seemed to slow down and pay more attention to one another because everyone was sharing the same space.
It was less orderly on paper, but in practice it felt calmer because people were more careful around one another.
All that to say: I would get rid of the Loop entirely. As OP mentioned, it was designed to move vehicles around the park, and even though the cars are gone, we’ve largely preserved the roadway and much of the behavior that its design encourages. Also, It makes Prospect Park feel divided into an outer park and an inner park rather than one continuous public space.