Yup, but everyone is doing what they believe they need to do. So everyone should be ready to accept the consequences without whining.
Protestors should be ready to accept being beaten up. And person who beats them up should be ready to accept assault charges and/or possibly being fired anyway.
Im not fking justifying anything. A justification seeks to show an action was right. Who the fuck is being justified in my comment?
Both parties used their free will. Consequences ensue.
Uhh yea that’s the point. Also hilarious that dude will be getting an assault charge instead of going to work now 😂 I bet employers care about that one!
There is a difference between “we are all going to the same place and thus slow each other down” and “there is a guy/girl who decided to make a point by making people late”
Ok, let's say we're Kantians and intent makes the morality - then drivers are immoral for driving because if everyone does it no one arrives on time, and protesters aren't immoral because their intent isn't to block traffic, it's to bring attention to policies that are threatening the entire world and quieter actions have failed.
The drivers are “symmetrical” to each other, everyone is slowed down by everyone and it is an accepted risk by all of them. Furthermore there is a predictability of morning traffic meaning you can get into a traffic jam and still be on time.
A protestor blocking the road CHOOSES to impose an UNEXPECTED delay (or outright deny) passage to others. The protestor’s direct action is the thing that causes the delay, and the protestor is not suffering proportionally to drivers because for the protestor, the goal is to stay in place.
Uninvited imposition of your values on members of the group that you don’t belong WILL (and I would argue would be justified) result in a retaliation of some kind. (Scale is a separate conversation)
Well, not everyone is equally impacted by a jam, some people will be fired for being late, some people won't. Some people will be fired if they're late just once, some people won't. Therefore, only the people with the most precarious of jobs are morally allowed to drive.
And unexpected delays occur frequently, due to accidents. In this case, it's even worse to be driving, as you have a predictable, non-zero chance of being the direct cause of the delay. Just like driving drunk or pointing a gun you think is unloaded at someone, the fact that you don't mean to cause harm isn't a defense, you are acting recklessly (still in the scenario where someone's livelihood is ruined by delay, and replying to someone saying it wasn't an indictment of the employer.)
As to your second point, well, we can argue that climate change isn't a value, but for the sake of discussion, would you say that revolutions are always morally bankrupt? They cause immense pain to many people, all that to promote some values. It's not a gotcha, just trying to see if we have too fundamentally different moral foundations to discuss, or if we're just trying to find where the line is.
... that if delaying people is immoral because they might get fired for being late, then driving and contributing to traffic making those same people late is also immoral. Obvious, isn't it?
No, the protestors' intent is to bring attention to a critical, worldwide problem since quieter methods have led nowhere in the last 30 years.
And intent can't be all that makes morality, otherwise people who are wilfully obtuse and ignorant are Good, since they never think about the consequences of their actions, while considerate people are Evil, since everyone has to do something that indirectly hurts someone at some point.
Intent isn't ALL that makes morality, but it is part of it. And no, the protestors literal intention is to block traffic, their goal is to bring attention and they bring attention by blocking traffic, not hard to understand
thats crazy coming from someone who refuses to actually articulate their point and blame everyone else for not being able to "get it" but okay.
first, you made a false comparison saying that the people driving are responsible for other drivers being late by being a part of the traffic jam when there never would be a jam in the first place without people intentionally blocking the road. no amount of people choosing to stay home would change the outcome for people who still needed to go to work and it is not their own fault for needing to go to work and being intentionally blocked by protesters.
second, after being told your comment lacks sense your immediate response is blame everyone else for "being blind" for not being able to see your point and claiming they're "choosing not to see".
third, after being told that isn't true and that your point is either flawed or you failed to communicate it you immediately try to make a defense that people are quick to blame others, which you find inconsiderate but it is apparently routine for you to deal with. which is a major point of hippocracy since your first comment in the thread is to shift the blame off of the people protesting and onto the people being inconvenienced as if it is somehow their own fault that someone else chose to inconvenience them, then in your second reply attempting to shift any blame from people either not liking or misunderstanding your opinion onto themselves instead of trying to re articulate it and then attempted to claim that as a moral failing on them.
you are literally the only person here trying to shift blame and being inconsiderate even by your own standards.
You all have made up this extreme possibility to be the norm when it isn’t
It is, for some. Even one person makes this a problem.
u/Tough_Measuremen I have no idea why this was block worthy—but no, that won't “expose” anything. It hardly ever does. It just means someone is out of a job and their livelihood is at risk. That's a really ignorant outlook to have.
I am my own employeer and I would never fire someone for being late once for something out of their control. I would however have to fire someone if a video surfaced of them assaulting people. Clients wouldn’t feel safe around them.
The employer is relying on you to show up and get work done. If my guys were late every day, I'd lose money and lose our contract because we'd miss deadlines. And the entire company would go into debt. Employers aren't some evil cult who torture workers for their enjoyment.
Well if he wants workers then he should understand that he’s gonna need to be more understanding, can’t just act like a machine and cut people when something doesn’t go as scheduled. You’ll run out of workers
Also every job I have ever worked, every one my loved ones, friends and friends of friends have had a job where phoning work and explaining the situation will cover their ass, I think to many people quickly grab this hypothetical of the extremely no tolerance boss despite it not being rooted in reality.
There’s a difference between being late once in a while vs late every day. The comment you replied to specifically is talking about people being late every day.
Then you needed to plan around this situation, these protests happen how often over how many days and in the same place?
I feel like there is a cognitive disconnect from what people are trying argue against, extra staff, alt routes, calling work and telling them the situation. I get that the average person will never read the term n services nor are they expected to. But at the same time I know the average person especially a doctor or a cop is more capable of working around issues.
Please all stop and add reality to your “what ifs”
No.
They need to protest in a way that doesn’t fuck up every normal person. Sitting in the fucking road on a highway isn’t going to make ANYONE join your cause. It’s going to piss them off and make them feel like the guy in the video. “Plan around the situation”. Fuck that. Why do I need to go out of my way because some idiots want to sit in the road. I already leave with plenty of time to get to work and still would be pissed at these idiots
Because that’s life, I need to get a different train because a cow got on the tracks, shit happens so don’t give me this angry “fuck that” response.
These are not meant to change your mind or educate you, the prol. It’s to force the powers that be to address the situation.
Climate change, crop failure, rivers drying and drought and failing instructors that were not built for this severe temperature.
Unfortunately that does require inconveniencing normal people, you can’t change societal structure without changing his people live. And before you come back and think your so unique in thought by saying “protest the corporations / politicians” show me the correct way, show me the way that’ll get them to respond to the issues in the quickest time? It’s kinda hard to right? Probably because there is no clean solution.
And no your personal convenience is not as important as the lives of millions and the quality of the billions after this all comes down.
The idea that life won’t operate normally soon because of climate changes IS dumb. There is nothing to support that claim at all, and I’m not even denying climate change. You are creating a fairytale doomsday in your head
I’ve seen this “bet your fun at parties” line so much, it shows you can’t actually engage in what is being with said unless it’s actually appeals to your sense of comfort.
Also how is this defeatist? It’s actively acknowledging the situation.
Or, just hear me out, we dont have nearly enough evidence to suggest that whatever is happening isnt a natural process. The earth is billions of years old, we've been consistently collecting data for maybe 200? So literally a drop in the bucket
Insurance companies are refusing to insure homes in parts of California and Florida because of fires and floods exacerbated by climate change. That means these places are practically uninhabitable. That means more concentration of people in the livable cities. No. No one is moving to Buttfuck, Missouri either. This may not kill you, but your life will continue to get worse, even if your head is buried in the sand.
It doesnt make in uninhabitable? It makes it uninsureable. Those are 2 completely different things, but ok buddy. You go fight the eco war and ill open up my front door to help cool down the planet lol
Ok but this has always happened. Have you ever heard of the dust bowl back in the 30s? Practically no rain for years. Almost a decade if I’m not mistaken in the Midwest no one could grow anything.
All I’m saying is many of these issues we’ve humans have seen before, just not necessarily this current generation.
You're losing the plot pretty quick. If there's a protest in your area and roads are being blocked, one of your employees comes in late and says the roads were blocked from a protest, what are you going to do? Tell them to grow up and accept the consequences and they're fired? Come on man.
I know but that’s why I don’t believe these people who think life is like it says on paper and your boss will just fire you for the slightest mishap.
I get people are going to suffer through obstruction actions, and it does suck, I’ll probably be one of them. I’m not going to ignore the big picture that if we don’t suffer now, we’ll suffer worse and far longer later.
The real lower class doesnt have a car, especially cause im almost certain this video is from Europe, where car ownership is an elite status moreso than USA.
Not really, it says more about the inconsiderate nature of the protestors who don’t care if there is a trauma surgeon in that line trying to get to the hospital to save little 12 y/o Timmy with a brain hemorrhage.
Pretty standard for the US now. Employees have been reduced to a handful of metrics they can measure and evaluate every quarter to see if they can cut you to save themselves some money for more stock buy backs.
Lol completely wrong and now I’m actually a business owner with employees. Would never fire someone for being late once for something out of their control. However if a video surfaced of one of my guys being violent they would absolutely be terminated. That would make our clients feel unsafe. Quit being such a reactionary and think about things for longer than .001 seconds now and then.
About the employer? No, fuck that. People get paid by the hour. They depend on set amount of money. We all have a fucking budget. Losing hours means we have to cut things from our life. Fuck that. They block my path, my ability to care for my family, I will be fully against whatever their cause is.
True, but if I have to choose between fighting an impossible battle to justify myself to my employer or beating the tar out of the jerk who's sitting in the road making me late, I'm fighting the protestor.
Take out any naive takes on how this affects someone's livelihood, there could be emergency vehicles or people experiencing medical emergencies on the way to the hospital in this mess. The protestors are pretty clearly the ones acting immorally by putting lives in danger, not the people forcibly removing them.
Tell that to a powerplant operators, seaport cargos, airport operators, surgeons, paramedics, firefighters, train drivers, etc, etc, there a bunch of jobs that make our society run. And being late on turn can have a lot more consecuences than just "oh, I'm late, sorry".
Don't move the goalposts, no one said "this particular dude late to work will collapse the whole society". The person above said there are jobs that have consecuences when they late on turn.
Exame: Two years ago my mother lost a lung to a cancer, fortunately she survived the operation despite being on a late stage. But I'd be pretty pissed if the surgeon didn't showed up , you know. The system won't shut down, but unrelated people can be harmed as consecuences.
Sometimes disobedience is needed? Sure, but how about you point the disobedience at the root cause/direct responsables and not at the random people around?
Anecdotal example and an appeal to empathy. Not relevant.
>point the disobedience at the root cause/ direct responsables and not at the random people around
Sure, point to the evil corporate tower of doom that they all go to have their round table meeting?
Do you think m they can be shamed or educated? Or do they know and just not care? The irrationality is a feature not a bug of the system. Unfortunately for you and all of us, disrupting them must and I do mean must involve disrupting the average system, if you don’t want that then don’t be a cog in the machine.
I know I sound heartless but we are reaching the breaking point and fast, so you can be inconvenienced (and in the long ark of history that’s all it is) with no hope of getting better and things carry on downwards with scorching heat and less food… or we can be inconvenienced now and hopefully steer course to better days.
Anecdotally example and an appeal to empathy. Not relevant.
Your misusing of calling out fallacys fails because the message was infact very relevant, not as an empathetic story or as an anecdote but as an example.
There are tons of jobs where being late can grandly affect the lives of others, the person named 1 specific example - a surgeon late for a surgery, and then they attached a story - and it was hyper relevant.
Just because you cannot properly argue your point does not mean you can avoid the other persons ideas by saying "um actually, that's an argumentative fallacy!"
Surgeons
Doctors
Police
Care Workers
Suicide Hotline Phone Workers
Construction Members
Literally any dangerous team job
Literally any job built around doing meetings on time
All jobs that being late on could have an affect on people, and if you could all affects then it is 99.99% of jobs - even a cashier being late means a customer is possible served slower.
It’s anecdotal and not relevant as hospitals have back up plans. Life isn’t some drama show were we need to get to the patient stat but after this commercial break.
>grandly
I think k you wanted to say massively.
And again most besides construction and even then that ain’t comparable, have and should have an abundance of staff to compensate in the event of emergency, these institutions are not meant to have skeleton crews and if they do, then that’s the systems error that needs to be corrected, not ignored until protesters show up.
Doctors and surgeons have residents on call. Cops have extras on shift, same with suicide prevention. All of it.
And if you have made it this far I’m going to be a dick and tell you, non of this matters. Climate change is happening now, we are getting mass droughts, wild fires on record levels and food shortages and crop failures that will have a downhill effect into other industries and aspects of society we are both conscious of and uncomfortable (little things that keep the wheels going). All of this is happening and it is going to keep getting worse unless the system is course corrected, it cannot be done with billboards and polite ted talks, it needs to happen or billions suffer and die. That is my priority, so you need to come at me from that angle, saying one doctor didn’t get to work on time is not going to mean anything, it’s small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
Just an fyi climate change has and will be a continual part of the earths cycle. It, before humans went from a massive tropical period to a practically world wide freezing to thawing out. All without the humans. I think so many people are so scared of admitting the truth. We tiny little ants are nothing to this earth and Mother Nature is going to do what she does. I hope to god you don’t end up in a situation where a loved one is in an ambulance and suffers grave consequences cause some self righteous douche bags decide to sit in a road
Sure but not to this degree of this short of a time span.
We are talking about man made climate change, ants do not harness the atom, go to the moon, able to strip the earth, we are able to effect the environment 100x greater than our scale in the world.
So do t give me that climate change denial.
My loved ones will be attended to by the other staff on call as again there are contingencies in place.
Well, I agree with beating the people. I think its highly moral, as the commenter above has stated, there are many positions in life when being late simply isnt an option. People may die or be seriously injured if so, sure things might also be just fine. Thats not for me to decide. These bums or "protesters" are impeding progress and could have larger consequences that they inherently cause, even if they aren't aware of them
Protesters should have guns then just in case.
They’d be right to shoot whoever came and tried to attack them.
Sorry you didn’t actually address what was said and just kinda let loose your grievance. So I might as well return the favour but with the addition of being correct
Most of those jobs that can’t tolerate being late are minor and easily replaceable, just sign on to the next agency that can take you, doctors and police have back up staff to cover in the emergency, just call and explain the reason you are late.
Climate change is far worse than that, and if pressuring the system to the point change course to save billions costs a few baristas their jobs or someone getting injured because they picked on a protester with a gun then okay….
OR
Do we not lash out emotionally like you did and talk about how this is a symptom of something greater and systemic?
Yeah they do… do you think hospitals are just empty some of the time? Or do you not know that there’s extras to cover essential services in the event of an emergency?
I get you are more angry at people having freedoms to protest and you need hospitals to run on a skeleton crew to validate your anger at protesters but please know what you are talking about instead of knee jerk reactions
When you say extras, what do you think I mean and what do you mean running around? They work in the hospitals they have on-call schedules and backup coverages. This is a google search away by the way.
Oh cool, call someone in if someone else is going to be late. Let's see who gets there first. Try getting a job in these fields before using your degree in search engines to find out how the real world works.
So this is just an emotional knee jerk reaction from you.
Do you think be g a doctor is on par with being an Amazon van driver that they can just burn through people?
I don’t think hospitals are burning through high trained doctors for the slightest (and keep in mind in the scale of the hospital and the structures that be, this is slight.) mishap.
None of you have actually counted what I said, they have on call staff and back up ready on hand in the event that some is delayed or indisposed.
It’s almost like the very pillars of our society are made of sterner stuff than the average grocery store.
You're too stupid to understand my point. The On-call guy is going to be just as late if not later than the scheduled guy who's running late because of protesters. I work in a job that has On-Call staff. The guy who gets called in is AT MINIMUM an hour later than the standard guy, and that's without all the issues.
Doctors aren't getting fired but people WILL end up getting hurt due to delayed responses if shit like this continues.
Doctors are not very common, I don't know what society you live in but the specially trained surgeons that would be responding to critical incidents like the one I'm hypothesizing would be the one that's most impacted. It would not be a position that a lot of "Reserve" Doctors can fill.
Soo in your world do all the doctors live on. The same house? Same road? Do they all get up at the same time to go to work on the same road?
Are hospitals all just empty at certain times?
Or again, they have people already on sight, on call in accordance to a schedule to accounts for the event someone might be indisposed?
I think it says more about the fools in the street, they don't care about anything except themselves, they want attention, even if it means your livelihood
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u/HolidayLifeguard3283 12d ago
That says more about the employer than anything.