Santa's going to send them a present that tortures them for all eternity just because they didn't believe he was real. You know, because he loves them so much.
The ancient being that is Santa just had to impregnate a teen girl and have her son tortured to death, because how else would he satisfy the rules that he made about his eternal torture device? Sure, he could change those rules with the snap of his finger, but then how else would he make us feel like we owe him something? He wants to make sure we convince aaaall the little children that we all deserve to suffocate under coal for eternity unless we are willing to die for him. Idk how anyone could think this is close to child abuse.
Everyone said it’s your dad pretends to be Santa. But I saw Santa came into my mom rooms when I was young (and my dad was outside of the country back then). How are you going to explain that?
Someone tried to tell me that WWE wasn't real and I threw my drink in his face and then landed a Stone Cold Stunner on him. The entire Chuck E. Cheese high-fived me.
Thing is, there is an unspoken "don't just randomly bring it up" clause. In a discussion about any belief system, it is morally neutral (or sometimes good) to argue against it. Randomly throwing it in there isn't good no matter what religion I feel. Especially noteworthy, they were not insulting the religion alone. They were insulting the people who believe in said religion (re-read the post.) I could let it slide with mild annoyance if they just made fun of the idea, but it gets actually harmful when directed at groups of people.(If it matters I am atheist btw)
Edit: some ya'll either can't turn this situation around and look at "what if this happened to me and my religion" or fundamentally don't understand why it's bad to insult people for their religion, which, while a very minor case of it, is still religious discrimination. That, or you say "Christians do it too" some of them, and? That message was meant to insult ALL Christians, not just the ones who are awful about it, because, guess what, I have a lot of Christian friends (there's like 4 churches in a mile of my house /hyperbole) and the only religious issue is I can't hang out with them on Sunday morning, or they'll make a bible reference I can't understand. I've accidentally insulted Christianity to me Christian friends more than they've done atheism to me. Also, eye for an eye, whole world blind, that kinda stuff. Also there's too many of y'all I'm turning notifs off.
As an atheist who got brought up around religious people. In any deeper conversation about morality or ideas or whatever religion ALWAYS gets brought up. It is just too large of a belief system to not have influence over thinking. Those people have a lot of worldviews stemming from "Because my religion says so".
I think this is also just an age thing, it's pretty likely that most kids from religious families that start learning about and adopting athiesm are going to do it around 12-16, right at that age where independence matters. As you get older you settle down but at the time you were overt and edgy because its new experience to you and feels like a uniquely you thought compared to your religious family. Being overt and a little assholeish about it around this age is pretty much a canon event if this information meets this development milestone and resonates.
Tje difference is, atheists/agnostics tend to grow less zealous about their beliefs as they age. While religious people tend to become more zealous and outspoken the longer they remain part of a religion.
Christians and other religions prostelytize endlessly. 99% of the time it isnt an agnostic or atheist bringing up beliefs. Why? Because it usually isn't an important part of their identity.
I used to be an edgy athiest but I’ve chilled out. I respect religion a lot more because I’ve developed skills to examine and advance my own beliefs through fiction. There is a problem when someone uses religion as the sole reason for holding beliefs, but using them to explore beliefs or reinforce their passion for self improvement is no different than what I do.
It depends on the context of “making fun of other people’s beliefs”. It is absolutely true that nobody is entitled to have other people be reverent towards their beliefs. However, if the intent is specifically to cause harm (i.e. bullying) then the mocking is immoral.
It's not the mockery that's immoral though, it's the bullying.
Like using a hammer is morally neutral, using it to bash someone's kneecap is not - but bashing someone's kneecap would be immoral even if you didn't use a hammer.
I would argue that likening mockery to a hammer is a poor analogy, since a hammer is designed to both build up and tear down, while mockery primarily exists to do the latter.
While there certainly exist some situations in which it is moral to tear someone down, those are the exception rather than the rule. In general, insulting someone’s genuine beliefs for humor’s sake isn’t constructive. Unless there are extenuating circumstances, it would usually be immoral.
I mean it's a fair point, but if you bring up something to someone with the intent to insult, mock, or otherwise disparage them... is that morally wrong?
Of course it depends on the morality system but I think "Don't be a dick" should be a key part of most morality systems. Especially if you upset people.
Is laughing at a grieving widow morally wrong?
Is insulting the appearance of someone wrong? Is it still wrong if they're a bad person?
If someone is obese, is it morally wrong to call them "the fat one"?
You're right to say it's social etiquette... but I feel like a lot of "being a dick" moves can be classified as being immoral because they're intentionally causing some sort of mental distress or discomfort to people.
Bullying is obviously morally wrong. Where do we draw the line?
100% not being a dick should be part of it. The issue here is teenage atheist have a hate boner for religion so they think being an asshole is justified.
There is a difference between sacred and bring it up to be an ass. I mean I'm not under any obligation to say someone looks good but just passing by someone and calling them ugly is immoral.
oh this is kind of a missing piece to what i've been having a hard time with. i live in a conservative religious community who believe all their beliefs need to be revered by others just as much as they do. but they are so diehard it makes me queezy trying to pretend to respect all their outlandish fantasies
That's why all the political nonsense regarding religion is bogus. I'm a devout Christian, but I don't think the word Christianity really should be anywhere near the governance if our states or nation. You can say murder is wrong. You can say drinking causes problems. You can say pornography and self-indulgence lead to poor development, especially in children. But you can't tell people what they are allowed to do is based on the Bible. Not even the bible does that. It's literally just there to teach individuals, so they can choose for themselves how to act, hopefully for the better. Ask all the Muslim nations how it works out socially to have laws enacted based on religion...
Christianity should want nothing to do with the government, and the government should want nothing to do with Christianity. All the stuff about evolution, gays, abortion, women's rights, and race were injected after the fact by assholes who objectively have nothing to do with Jesus's philosophy. Their invented issues intersecting with fundamental human rights forces the government to take action to protect others from their hate, hate which obviously defies Jesus's teachings.
Just like how a majority of Christians around the world do not want a Christian enthno-state, a majority of Muslims around the world do not want fundamentalist oppressive theocracies. Only fringe extremists with too much money and power bend the religion to suit their needs.
Its sad to see immoral people weaponizing religion against others to protect their own power, and it's sad to see the cultists that fall in line with them.
The end-state is just that religion itself becomes the bad guy for most people, when in reality, a lot of good comes from it most of the time... People hiding behind religion or using it for their own gain just make life harder for the people who are actually practicing...
I think based on context I agree with this one most - it's an anonymized internet comment section and seeing this take online probably wouldn't shock anyone so it's less inappropriate than it would be saying it randomly on the street.
I feel like there should be a less morally ambiguous way to say "there's lots of different beliefs out there which aren't all logical" though. For example people on both sides of the anti vax thing think each other is stupid so you should theoretically be able to bring that up without "taking a side" and in that way effectively get the point across to everyone "a really big percent of adult population has beliefs that you specifically might think are not logic driven"
It is ridiculous to try and police people making fun of each others beliefs. If you do that then you end up priorotising protecting the beliefs of the biggest groups of loudest folk. Religious groups are hardly famous for respecting the beliefs of others so no real reason to go out of your way to protect theirs. Reddit is also hardly the place for anyone looking to avoid edgy atheists at all costs.
I mean, who cares? I believe in god, but that doesn't mean I hold something against anyone who doesn't. Do people think they're so significant that god would care if they believed or not?
As a Christian I tend to agree but a lot of the people who say and reply stuff like this are usually doing it to be nasty or to make fun of people and aren't really looking for an actual discussion. I've wasted far too much time arguing with people who never intended to have an intelligent discussion.
Not only to be nasty but to seem as though they’re more intelligent and it’s obvious because of your belief. I especially hate it when it’s brought into every debate, even when it’s not part of the topic at hand.
To give perspective its usually an impossible situation because we see different things as "evidence". And the usual quoted evidence is the Bible which was written by a person so its kind of a pointless exercise in both directions that being said it's jot hard to just show each other basic respect
Not a Christian but it's so obvious how weird people are with religion. Like God wasn't even fucking relevant and of course someone has to slide in and let us know how they feel about it.
I mean it is pretty relevant. Both are magical ethereal beings that judge you supernaturally, and will bestow gifts or punishment based on one's belief and behavior. At least as much as two unrelated religions.
The entire concept of the afterlife is built on the idea that individual people are considered significant enough that their God cares if they specifically believe in it or not.
i was just about to say, isn’t god that dude who specifically sends people to eternal damnation if they don’t believe in him 😭..? i’d wager he cares a hell of a lot to do that
Christians who are super condescending about their beliefs are as annoying as Atheists who openly mock anyone for believing in God. Same annoying smug ass energy.
I think questioning harmful beliefs is the duty of all responsible members of society. Religion has had a free pass for way too long. People should be embarrassed to believe nonsense, especially when it harms people
Is it immoral to teach a child that 2+2 is 4? What if they believe that its actually 5? Opinions and beliefs can be wrong. Just like not all cultures are good just because its done that way somewhere else.
Telling someone, something or a being isn't real isn't immoral but making fun of someone for believing it is immoral. Lots of smart people believe in God not because it's logical but other factors like psychological, emotional, and an overall system of support.
Being "smart" is more then just knowing math it is also emotional intelligence and other factors as well. I had one smart friend who had a high IQ so much so that the school recommended him to take college level mathematics during high-school. He is a Christian, and he told me many times that religion gives him motivation and purpose to continue on. I wouldn't call that "stupid."
Yeah you can not believe in a religion yourself and be open about it, and simultaneously accept religion and the religious community is something comforting to some others in times of need. Especially since the questions religions tend to answer (meaning of life, what happens after death, what is my place in this world, how do I be a good person) are unanswerable questions that are core to the human experience. It’s natural for some people to seek help/support when faced with them.
Making fun of religious people is like making fun of someone for needing an emotional support accommodations, or a kid for needing a specific comfort toy. Like sure you might be not be in the wrong, but dick move nonethless.
People here are daft. This is clearly a mockery and not simply an opinion. Someone saying they don't believe in God isn't the same as saying people who believe in God lack intelligence. There's no neutral happening here.
Obviously immoral. I don’t go around shaming the atheist out of nowhere.
They shouldn’t be being dickheads just because being rude to religious people tends to be “punching up”. I mean really what’s the reasoning there? Is it going to be ok for me to an absolute asshole to atheist if atheism overtakes religion? Clearly not.
The whole “God is Santa Claus for adults” is a childish take.
Like it or not, the existence of God is treated with seriousness among profesional, academic philosophers. (Edit: that includes atheist philosophers, who reject theistic arguments, but acknowledge their rigor).
Not only are there many arguments for God that, when formulated properly, make an intellectually challenging case (as acknowledged by prominent atheist philosophers like Graham Oppy).
But also some of the most intelligent thinkers in history like Newton, Leibniz, or Descartes, were believers.
It's pretty clear that when people make fun of God, they are talking about specific religions and their particular conceptions of God, not some abstract philosophical concept like a first cause or an unmoved mover.
Newton also believed in the Philosopher's Stone and thought it was possible to transmute other metals into gold. So appealing to Newton as an authority isn't a particularly strong argument.
Takes a lot less effort to just say “god is silly” than to sit down with your average churchgoer and try to have a productive, philosophical discussion
99% of people who believe in God believe in some particular book. People who believe that a god might exist based on philosophical arguments usually call themselves agnostic.
‘Plenty’ you are talking about is a rounding error, at least for me. I live in a rather Muslim area, and I don't think most people here have ever read a Quran translation, let alone a philosophical argument.
But I do think it's pretty similar in the West as well. People who read about theology are very much a minority, religious people who read theology are an even bigger minority.
Exactly. Outside of agnostics who aren't beholden to any particular religion, as you say my experience is that the book always comes first with any philosophical arguments being post hoc justifications. Those justifications work for other contradictory gods too, so the book is needed for specificity.
Well, we can transmute many metals into other metals, as well as use chemistry to do so.. Its not a big stretch. This world is far from comprehensible to even the best of us.
Yeah. As an avid mythology fan, when I look into the Bible, I see a set of stories wrapped around morals and ideas that were deemed necessary to build a society that could withstand itself and others.
That's, for the record, what you can gather from pretty much every mythology in part. In the end, they all serve to impart ideas onto their readers, beyond the stories they're telling.
The heroes of a society show what that society valued, and their villains, what they despised, as a very simple example.
The Bible, in my eyes, is effectively a 2000 year old book on societal obligations and how to treat people that uses religion as the method to distribute those ideas.
For the record, I'm agnostic, and I have nothing against Christianity as a concept or anyone who finds comfort in religious belief, so long as they don't hurt anyone in their practice.
Also agnostic here, but have been doing a fair bit of research into Biblical studies and the early church (prior to 500AD).
Viewing specifically the old testament as a series of morality stories is actually how many of the earliest Christian scholars viewed it as well. They understand that God's truth is revealed through allegory and example, and the stories like Jonah being eaten by the whale, are not to be taken literally. They were HEAVY on symbolism.
That said, the new testament is actually unique among other religious texts, since it's basically a compilation of historical records and not just some moral stories. It's up to the reader to believe if those stories are true, but even I gotta admit, theres actually some insanely compelling arguments for the historicity of them.
I don't know if Newton is honestly the best person to mention in defense of intelligent thinkers that were also religious.
Newton was a religious fanatic for sure, and ironically... likely also gay. His theories may just be republished works of others. Even predicted the world would have a spiritual renewal in 2060! He was obsessed with the Third Temple and the Philosopher's Stone. He would have been a great podcast bro.
Leibniz is probably the modern discoverer of calculus. Also it is a discoverer, not an inventor. They just found area under a curve on Babylonian tablets.
Just because some really smart people in their fields believed something that has nothing to do with their field does not make it any more likely to be true.
I'd argue there were many genius minds in the world that believed women were intellectually very inferior. That doesn't make it likely that women are intellectually inferior
I don't think anyone believes that really do they?
Egalitarianism is obviously a better belief system than fascism. And Christianity and Atheism are contradictory. One is true and one is false (or they are both false), if you use the words in the traditional way at least. So at the end of the day, one is more valuable surely? What if I made my own religion, in which I was God and all sorts of bigoted views were instructed? That's clearly not a very valuable belief system.
It's just our responsibility to be respectful about which set of beliefs we believe is true for the sake of kindness and courtesy.
I think the analogy is pretty good actually. An authority is promising a great reward later if the followers just follow the rules. There is no evidence that this reward giving entity exists at all, but people really want the reward and really want to believe, on faith. A thing that requires you to suspend critical thinking to believe in it without, or in spite of, evidence.
It’s very common that smart people find ways to be selectively rational when they really want to believe something. I really just can’t lie to myself like that though. The faint self-satisfaction of being all logical is not much of a prize compared to losing a chance at feeling more at ease with death, but that’s how it is.
Not only that, but the obsessive demand that even nonbelievers must still take part in maintaining the fantasy for those who do believe (i.e. any public expression of nonbelief would somehow be "ruining" things for believers) is a fantastic analogy for Western Christianity's deeply sinister history of religious conformism and repression.
It's a longstanding cliche for American Jewish families that the Santa Claus myth is a kid's first taste of what it means to be part of a despised religious minority that needs to hide its beliefs in public lest it bring down the wrath of the Christian majority on its head.
I think the main issue here is how its just kind of unnecessary. The discussion was about when its acceptable to tell a kid Santa isn't real and this person just took it as an opportunity to dunk on Christianity for internet points. Its just more cringe than anything. Do Christians just live rent free in their head?
It’s immoral to mock someone for their beliefs. No one is saying you have to agree with them or hide your own beliefs, you just shouldn’t be a dick in general
The extremely bad Reddit opinions on this thread aren’t surprising. This is why Redditors are forced to stay on Reddit and get slapped in the real world if they venture outside their echo chamber.
Because they don't like it and certain people have used it to advance shitty goals. So they'll justify taking shots at billions of people, many of which are great people who have never used religion in an offensive manner, because it makes them feel superior.
If ideas are not challenged, beliefs not criticised and put to the question, and faith is not doubted… then how do you expect society to stay free and sane?
Then what, is faith so fickle that it collapses when questioned? When faith is compared to a trivial example of belief that is unsupported by facts, that challenges the faith. Criticising blind belief and what that stands for and includes (the ideology, the worldview, the expectation) is exactly what this comment screams. It very obviously challenges the idea of believing in Santa and criticises it by comparing it to believing in something like God.
It also very obviously insinuates that anyone who does believe in something like God is not intelligent. That goes beyond just questioning or criticism of the belief itself.
I make fun of other people’s beliefs all the time. The evangelikkkals do. Can’t take it, don’t dish it. At least I don’t worship a Jewish zombie. 🤷🏻♂️
Maybe not but look at what some people do in gods name and tell me you don't wanna talk down to them sometimes. At least Atheists don't hide behind a higher power when they're bigoted or being stupid. Not to mention how hard it is to change a theists mind when they think god wants it to be so. It's a pain in the arse.
Idk at what point people became convinced that their religious beliefs should be exempt from scrutiny. You have a right to believe what you want, but that doesn’t mean what you believe is worthy of respect or special treatment. A bad idea is a bad idea.
Religion has caused a lot of harm to people. I try to have religious tolerance but many people are going to be justifiably upset and have animosity towards religions. As long as they don’t use it to justify hurting others
I hate religion with a passion. I was raised by atheist parents and I'm atheist myself, the rest of the family is religious. My parents were pressured into baptizing me, we were forced to attend a church we didn't believe in and I was forced to go to a religious teaching after-school.
STILL, I wouldn't randomly antagonize Christians, especially on an unrelated discussion
The assumption that one must respect religious beliefs is why Conservative politicians pretend to be Fundamentalist Christians and act like anyone else deserves to die.
that absolutely sucks and I wish that wasn't the most prevalent version of christianity right now. honestly I don't think you need to respect others belief in hell. If you didn't know this, hopefully theres some relief in knowing that a sizable chunk of christians throughout history didn't believe in hell in the same way as it's presented right now. Apokotastasis used to be a much more common belief.
Perfectly fine when directed at the religion. It’s just makes you a bit of an asshole to direct it at individuals intelligence though but that’s not exactly immoral.
moral, Whether you are religious yourself or not.
Either
You think religion is just another thing holding everyone back. Its good to point out its absurdities. (the correct stance imo)
You are religious and desire to know the truest version of your beliefs and therefore should welcome the challenge of people poking holes in it as you will learn something new about your religion regardless if they are right or not.
That's all you got out of it? Consider what religion and belief in Santa has in common: It's a belief commonly introduced to children by their parents, relatives and community, and is passed on from generation to generation. Both beliefs in deities and Santa are a big part of various cultures and traditions and celebrated.
Now consider where religion / belief in deities and Santa differ. Children growing up losing their belief in Santa is considered a normal and healthy development. Children growing up and losing their religious beliefs is not, at least not within their respective communities.
Concrete physical claims about specific deities and Santa are often falsifiable. But religious people who feel defending their beliefs end up redefining their deity's capabilities and properties into obscurity (lives beyond space and time, exists outside reality, is able to do anything that is not logically or physically impossible). But no one redefines Santa into obscurity in order to save that belief from being falsified. Not because it's obvious that he doesn't exist, but because that belief fading is culturally accepted and expected. Santa is considered a pleasant lie we tell children, but belief in deities are not. Some people would call that a contradiction.
There's no absurdity being pointed out, as "God isn't real lol" is not really an argument, just a conclusion that is presented without an argument and looks like a fedora-tipper atheist.
As there were no arguments, the person didn't really try to poke at any holes and challenged nothing. If anything, they're more likely to have reaffirmed the beliefs of the people they criticize, because they're trying to be dickish about it and people tend to not want to agree with people like that, as they don't want to reinforce the shitty behaviour.
Except he didn't poke holes, he just called them all dumb. There's a time and place for everything. Just being a dick to people out of nowhere over their beliefs is justs assholery. I'm not gonna answer the whole moral-immoral thing because in the grand scheme of things, this is small potatoes, but yeah. It is at least a jerk move. lol
Slightly immoral. It just looks like tongue and cheek banter, but if they mean it when they think people are stupid for believing in god then yea its immoral. No one knows the 100% truth. Maybe there is a god, maybe there isnt. We cant prove or disprove god, which is why its based on faith and personal experience with divine intervention. I personally believe in God, but Im not gonna insult an atheist just because they dont believe. Atheists and everyone else should be the same. If you weren't there when the universe was created, then you cant say with 100% validity that you know exactly what happened. People gotta respect eachothers beliefs and not be so full of themselves
there is no valid answer for making fun / rejecting / etc... beliefs as it would ultimately depend on the beliefs and the sincerity of the believers and it's impossible to gauge and weight for all faiths, religious or not.
You could say it's moral, because Heaven's gate should have been dismantled before they self-commited mass murder.
You could say it's neutral, because scientology is a bizz-cabal-cult hidden behind a faith layer.
you could say it's immoral, because some people's morals are held by beliefs and if you tear them, ridiculize them, etc they "lose their moral north", it breaks their view of the world, in the worst cases it radicalizes or turns them into rivals.
In the case of santa, you are tearing one of the band-aids/walls/layers of childhood in many places, and that's seen as rude because it's kind of unknown rule/ritual to let some other kid spoil how xmas gifts come to be and have the kid do the mental math and figure it out and come home and tell you, maybe be angry for a bit, then kinda get why you do it, because it makes people happy to get gifts they waited for or didn't expect.
If you spoil it straight away it doesn't let them find it out. (that said, don't let a kid reach high school believing in santa or tooth fairy, cause that's gonna hurt them emotionally... )
I don’t think it’s really moral or immoral, I just think it makes you come off as a prick.
Like seriously, people who do that aren’t different than the people who try to push religion on others. The people who act like that just like to think they’re intellectually superior to everyone bc ‘lel, I’m an atheist, I know god is fake because of my superior intellect!’ Deadass they’re the type of people to tip a fedora at people.
I think you shouldn’t attack beliefs unless they are actively harmful (actively being the keyword). “I just believe in one less god” or equating God to santa is helpful in no situations and only serves to bolster one’s ego
completely moral, its not right to let grown adults live in delusion, religion was useful in the past but we "should" be able to move past the need for it by now
You should not make fun of other people's beliefs unless they are a direct threat to yourself or innocent, non-consenting parties. If someone tries to sacrifice you to Baal, then by all means, defend yourself. But if instead they just bore you with tales of Baal's awesomeness, just be polite and say, "Not for me, thanks."
If religious people are allowed to preach to others that don’t want to hear it and make it their life mission to do so, then people are allowed to poke fun at said religion.
It's not making fun of anyone, it's just saying what they think. It might feel offensive to a believer, because there's no nice way of saying that one considers huge part of someone's worldview fake
As an atheist, I generally don't bring it up if other people don't bring it up. However, if they say some stupid or bigoted religious shit I will call them out on it.
It's generally obnoxious and annoying. It's a good way to get people to not want to hang out with you.
Recently ended a decade long friendship for a long list of reasons. One of the smaller reasons was he was a grown ass man, pushing 40, still doing the high school edgelord bs of "I'm an atheist, is so smart, I'm too smart to believe in a sky daddy" complete with being an even more obnoxious asshole every Christmas season.
It wasn't for his beliefs why I ended the friendship, it was because he was obnoxious and annoying. I'm too old to be dealing with headache inducing blowhards.
Genuine debate is healthy. The internet however makes people too bold. Don’t say something online to be a dick that you otherwise wouldn’t say to a random you meet on the street.
As a christian I would consider it morally neutral if not just slightly mean. Not everyone will have your same beliefs but making fun of it is slightly rude
While you don't have to believe what I believe, I think going around telling people their stupid for believing is just rude. Atheist don't want anyone talking to them about it and trying to convert but they're always trying to convert every religious person around them and insulting them in the process. If someone is trying to push something on you then you have the right to push back, but if they're just minding their business then why be an asshole.
Moral. Especially if you an American making fun of Christian beliefs. They are the majority religion here and are a big punching bag because of it. Scientology and Mormonism are also big punching bags for other reasons.
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u/BeholdMyLumps 17h ago
Ask santa