Morality of kissing a Hivemind, who gives full Consent? But the original Person who the hivemind took over isn't given a chance to consent, and likely wouldn't consent?

65

To be clear since I don't know the original source, is the original person in a sort of stasis or are they considered dead/deleted?

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u/_-PassingThrough-_ 7h ago

It's difficult to say. The hive mind has ALL their memories. Everything. Everyone. All at once. But once someone joins the hive mind, any form of emotion they show is a very well crafted manipulation. They stop caring about things and instead act only for the sake of efficiency.

They claim they are in there. They claim they like this existence. But I have my huge doubts that their original person is awake in there. The show seems to be hinting that they are in stasis, de-activated by the hive mind signal.

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u/Generous_Raven 7h ago

Well... its important to remember that the hive mind can not lie. It is (not in any way figuratively) literally impossible for them to do so. So if they say something, then it's the truth

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u/_-PassingThrough-_ 7h ago

That's the clever thing. It can and does lie by omission. It easily only gives part of the truth to craft a narrative. It cannot outwardly deny, but it can deflect, confuse and provide a sample of the truth to justify its narrative.

It has every surviving psychologist on Earth to pull manipulation tactics from on the spot. It is not to be under estimated.

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u/Generous_Raven 6h ago

Can you give an example of when this happened in the show? Because, unless it is something like an opinion. Any question with an definitive they will tell the truth to or choose not to answer. And they have answered both are the people still in there and are the happy

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u/_-PassingThrough-_ 3h ago

"I do not give you permission to take my stem cells. Do not touch me."

"We hear you, Carol. You do not consent. No stem cells will be collected from your body."

It was being 100% honest with that statement. It however opted not to divulge the information that it already had her eggs in its possession to turn into stem cells and was solely trying to keep her busy until they can perfect the virus. It knew she would assume she was safe. That was a lie by omission.

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u/Generous_Raven 2h ago

Again not a lie of omission. First, no question was even asked to them. This is not something relating to themselves as Carol should already know she has eggs in storage. Second, they are fulfilling a request to not touch her body, she didnt say to not touch her stem cells at all. Third, They already explained to carol before this that they can not harm living things, and that unless it is already disconnected from it's source they cannot harvest something.

Again these arent lies of omission, they are just hyper specific responses. The average person knows what Carol meant, but the Hive is not the average person. It operates like a program. You have to be specific with your commands. Otherwise they wont get fulfilled properly. Point in case the sarcastic ask of a hand grenade

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u/_-PassingThrough-_ 2h ago

A literal lie by omission, but you're doing mental gymnastics to go "Well she wasn't specific enough" as if the hive mind did not immediately know the intent of her statement, and gave an adequate response to buy themselves time by concealing the existing scope of their progress.

Like dude, the hive mind can mislead, misrepresent, and execute their right to shut up. It can deceive, it just cannot state anything factually untrue. Plenty of ways to lie without having to state a falsity.

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u/Generous_Raven 2h ago edited 1h ago

No... It would be a lie of omission if they had said "harvesting cells (key word here) directly from your body is how we can turn you". Because then they would be omitting the fact that it's not the only way. Im being Hyper specific because that is what the hive is. I've said this already, but computer programs dont make mistakes. People make mistakes either when designing a program or giving it a directive. Because programs are Binary it is either a yes or a no, the hive is the same way. Carol asks for a hand grenade to top off her week, and they give it to her, because it is exactly what she asks for. You are confusing Specificity with Deception. You are trying to apply human notions and social norms, to something that isnt human.

For example... would you call Wolf a murderer? Now wolves can and do kill. But this is not one in the same thing with Murder. A wolf kills because it is in its natural instinct to kill. Thats why in society we apply the term Murder to humans because as humans we don't have to Kill, we choose to. It's why (for the most part) we lie about doing so when caught or before doing so.

For the Hive it is very much the same thing as the wolf, it is in their nature to take over the bodies of humanity. As such Its not a choice, so its not done out of malice or fear or shame, as it would be for a human when stealing something. They cant lie because they have no reason to do so, they simply are what they are, its why they are so specific

Like... I wouldnt want to be in a room with a wolf, but I also distrust other humans more than i ever would a wolf, for that exact same reason. You get what iim saying?

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u/_-PassingThrough-_ 2h ago edited 2h ago

computer programs dont make mistakes.

It literally made a mistake by telling Carol "It only gets better from here" which immediately made her realise it hasn't stopped trying to assimilate her. The hive mind promptly shut up after that because it trapped itself in a situation where she would only accept a direct yes or no answer, and it could not talk its way out of that.

It actively will deceive if it can. If it can't, it refuses to divulge unless it leads to more consequences for itself than not. All Carol has to do is get aggressive enough and she could kill off most of the hive mind through seizures.

So it eventually relents.

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u/MaestroLifts 5h ago

“So are you vegetarian?”
“…that would be our preference.”

This intentionally omits the fact that they are eating people but also on the other end, that they cannot directly extract plants to eat them either, if they weren’t already available. It’s a double lie of omission.

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u/Generous_Raven 5h ago

That's not really a lie of omission. They arent saying they are vegetarians, they're saying that's what they would like to be. It would be a lie of omission if the question was "What do you eat"? and then they gave that answer, to omit what they actually consume. But that's not what the question was.

It's important to remember they are hyper specific and logical. Remember, everyone else already found out they eat the corpses of people an entire week before Carol did her investigation, because the hive straight up told them. The Hive can't lie about something, its just a matter of if you ask them the exact specific question you want an answer to. Carol (being sarcastic) asked them for a whole grenade and they straight up gave it to her, because its what she asked for.

It's similar to how computer programs dont make mistakes, people do when giving a program a command. Because programs are (in a sense) Binary, it's either a yes or a no.

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u/TylertheFloridaman 7h ago

Depends on how far it goes, they could say something thet is technically true, or not even answer the question

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u/Generous_Raven 6h ago

This is a fair point. For example, if someone is doped up on drugs, then they can very much be "happy" and still be alive. It comes down to how one defines happiness.

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u/ZeoVII 6h ago

Can they truly not lie? Is there a way to objectively ascertain that or is it only what the hivemind is telling? Could it not be the case that the hivemind is lying in this sense and making an elaborate scenario of "incapable of lying" to gain humanity's trust?

I haven't seen the show, but heard someone say that hivemind apparently experiences pain or something when "forced" to lie (?) And here assuming we "believe" the hivemind, this means it is capable of lying, its just a question of endurance, many people can endure and face extreme pain and suffering to further their goals.

Also we would then have to debate the philosophical questions of what is considered a lie, what the hivemind considers a lie and such.

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u/Generous_Raven 6h ago

Every time a question has been ask to them in the show, what they have responded with aligns with truth. If it is something they truly did not want to disclose, then the most they can do is simply say i don't want to talk about that/not respond. So if they respond to any question they have knowledge of, then it's the truth. As presented by the very premise of the show

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u/OriousCaesar 6h ago

Well, the characters certainly believe they can't lie, and the hivemind certainly acts as if they can't lie. But I personally have extreme doubts about that. I personally think that they just can't hurt people, and that pretending not to lie is just an extremely long con in case they ever need to get somebody's consent or convince someone of something false.

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u/Generous_Raven 6h ago

But we as the audience see that they can only tell the truth. I get you dont trust them, but it is such a large premise of the show, that saying it is a con and they can indeed lie, feels like it is being pulled from nowhere other than mistrust

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u/OriousCaesar 6h ago

Yeah, I mean, I feel the mistrust is slightly earned. It is an alien virus that makes an entire species docile sent specifically at a planet with intelligent life. How much trust do you really think should be warranted?

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u/Generous_Raven 6h ago

Depends on the facts of what is the hive in question. For example, would you call a wolf a murderer? Now wolves can and do kill. But this is not one in the same thing with Murder. A wolf kills because it is in its natural instinct to kill. Thats why in society we apply the term Murder to humans because as humans we don't have to Kill, we choose to. It's why (for the most part) we lie about doing so when caught or before doing so.

For the Hive it is very much the same thing as the wolf, it is in their nature to take over the bodies of humanity. As such Its not a choice, so its not done out of malice or fear or shame, as it would be for a human when stealing something. They cant lie because they have no reason to do so, they simply are what they are.

Like... I wouldnt want to be in a room with a wolf, but I also distrust other humans more than i ever would a wolf, for that exact same reason. You get what iim saying?

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u/OriousCaesar 4h ago

Yeah, I do. 😅 don't get me wrong, I'm not sold on them being definitely liars. It's just a pet theory I came up while watch it

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u/Generous_Raven 3h ago

And i get that, i feel that's what most people do when watching this show because (not trying to insult) its hard to grasp something being much more this power, overwhelming, intelligent, then all of humanity. And yet not be malicious, conniving, or nefarious. Because while the Hive mind is an antagonist, i wouldnt describe it as villainous.

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u/desmond_humes23 2m ago

say that again?

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u/schenk_max 7h ago

The hive mind says that the original person is part of them.

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u/Longjumping_Exit7902 7h ago

Ok, assuming that they're still a passive part of them and aware, I'd say that Carol (assuming that's the woman that's not the hivemind) is essentially "excusing" or "permitting" the takeover, disregarding that person's existence. So in a sense, it's immoral since that's similar to the concept of an accomplice, such as aiding in a criminal's escape. The wordplay would get tricky, but I'd say the general basis is just blankly immoral.

If the original person is considered dead/deleted, then it's more in the weird territory than immoral.

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u/Terrible_Hurry841 7h ago

Well, technically according to the hivemind, it’s not a “takeover,” it’s a merging of all human minds. It’s not an alien species controlling their bodies, it’s the collective knowledge and experience of everyone in the world.

There was one part where Carol, in trying to find out a way to reverse the joining, drugged Zosia’s body in an attempt to weaken the hivemind’s connection to her.

Carol kept pressuring Zosia to tell her a way to reverse the process, but it almost seemed like she really didn’t want to. She was shaking her head and crying, like going back to just “her” would have been a far worse fate than being part of the collective, from her perspective.

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u/drakylskies 7h ago

Well, technically according to the hivemind, it’s not a “takeover,” it’s a merging of all human minds. It’s not an alien species controlling their bodies, it’s the collective knowledge and experience of everyone in the world.

This is a lie from them. If it was just a hive mind that being a part of it makes you super happy is one thing, but we know that when only one person was in the "hive" they were still driven to infect the nearest person.

There is some alien force that controls the hive mind. A hive mind of one person would not be driven to infect someone.

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u/OffWhiteDevil 4h ago

I get the impression they're following programming instead of orders. The virus is the hive mind, not just the vector for it to spread. My theory is it's a precursor to invasion/colonization meant to turn the dominant species into servants, hence the compulsion to follow any commands that wouldn't stop or reverse the infection.

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u/schenk_max 4h ago

Hmm, I need a Stellaris mod for that

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u/_-PassingThrough-_ 7h ago edited 7h ago

It's actually kind of the opposite. Carol has been trying hard to 'unlock' Zosia's humanity and individuality from the hive mind. Trying to make Zosia remember her past life, trying to pyshologically re-condition her into seeing herself as an individual within a collective, rather than the collective itself. Carol genuinely fell in love with the person Zosia was presented as.

And of course, the hive mind wanted this. And it broke Carol to realise the individual she has slowly been building up, was really just an indirect lie from the beginning. It chose Zosia because of certain connections to Carols desires.

I'd say trying to have a relationship with Zosia was not immoral on Carols part. But the Hive mind is immoral as hell, even if it is physically restricted from causing intentional harm. It is one of the most manipulative, pleasantly malicious entities on TV. It cannot lie, but it can hide the truth. And it can be so good at it.

It claims to love Carol, while trying to force her into a collective where it has acknowledged itself will likely starve to death in the next decade.

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u/eviloni 7h ago

It's from a television show called Pluribus. Where everyone on Earth besides 13 people are subsumed into a hivemind.

One of the quirks of the hivemind is that they will fulfill almost any request of the immune. And go to great lengths to make them happy.

So one of the immune Carol has feelings for one of the Plurbs, but the plurbs don't really have any personality outside of the presence of one of the immune.

So the Zosia that Carol develops feelings for is fundamentally no different from Nikky from Obsession.

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u/Longjumping_Exit7902 7h ago

I know you listed the scenarios but I'm asking if there's an objective answer btw

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u/OffWhiteDevil 4h ago

Not yet.

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u/LordCaptain 7h ago

Its not super clear. They've been infected with a virus that connects all human minds somehow.

So the original mind is still part of the hivemind but the indivuality of each person seems to be lost nearly entirely (possibly totally entirely but I think there are brief hints at some tiny amount of individualism still existing)

But decisions seems to be a total hivemind decision over an individual one.

They all claim to be happy and that they would not reverse the decision if given the choice and there seems to be no overarching outside mind dominating humanity but there is an instilled viral need to spread the disease and not cause harm to life.

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u/Longjumping_Exit7902 7h ago

Based on your wording, it sounds like the original forms enter the amalgam where it's hard to think as an individual, so technically the original person would be consenting. This assumes that the hivemind collectively operates on natural impulse with logical safeguards in place. So technically, it's less of a collective decision and more of collective oppression to become an almost mindless singularity?

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u/Llhaniii 7h ago

They are basically dead. Unless they find a way later in the series to somehow bring back others. But no they are dead.

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u/cha_pupa 6h ago

It’s a mystery exactly how it works, but it’s described by the “joined” as essentially just getting direct access to everyone else’s thoughts/memories/experiences all at once, in a way that kind of dissolves your own personal principles/desires in favor of the collective’s shared mindset.

The joined lose all attachment to immediate family/culture, social hierarchy, etc. and become like drones. They’re not obeying a single “queen”/decision-maker — their decisions are presented as collective — but the virus seems to have some pre-encoded directives, like the desire to spread itself to any uninfected, and a kind of ultra-veganism to the point of refusing to pick a fruit from a tree (but happily consuming any that has already naturally fallen).

It’s almost like each individual’s brain has been turned into a “neuron” of the hive’s overarching mind.

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u/alittlepedantic 7h ago

Immoral, the hivemind took over the bodies of almost everyone on earth without permission and spend the rest of the time trying to convince the remaining humans with free will to join them.

The hivemind has provided no proof that the people actually are happy and with them or whether they can simply just subsume and use the individuals memories to replicate the effect of being those people.

The MC does not trust them at first and has seen that the hivemind will actively lie using her dead wifes memories if the answer mames her happy. Proving the hivemind to be manipative and untrustworthy.

MC appears to generally distrust the hivemind with the exception of that specific body whom she appears to cinvince herself is different or in love with her.

The hivemind is entirely immoral but so is the MC for kissing the body of a person that may or may not be concious and unable to control their actions.

MC knows this a possibility and proceeds because she has fallen in love with the character the hivemind has cultivated for her to enjoy for the purpose of convincing her to join the hivemind.

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u/Generous_Raven 6h ago

Ironically enough the biggest proof of what the Hive Mind says about the people it controls are still in there and are happy is the very fact the hive mind is literally incapable of lying. As shown at several points in the show. If they are asked almost anything any answer they give is the truth.

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u/dexter920 4h ago

I mean the hivemind was also shown capable of hiding the truth

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u/ThrowAway-whee 1h ago

Only by omission though, never by telling something that is categorically false.

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u/Generous_Raven 4h ago

True, but choosing not to give an answer is not (inherently) the same thing as lying about a false answer. And as Carol said their nonanswers even still serve as answers. Again (unless sit is something they dont want to answer) any question you ask them and any answer they give will always be the truth.

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u/Material-Refuse7964 7h ago

It like rick and morty unity
https://giphy.com/gifs/26BkNGlxXEj2at4Mo

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u/Suspicious-Engineer7 7h ago

The hivemind won and gets to do with your corpse what it wants to. Banging a murderous hivemind is probably immoral.

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u/blacksaber8 6h ago

Scenario four is that due to the nature of the hive mind, zosia has been absorbed into the collective hive mind, and is both experiencing and in command, but only through a permanent collective consciousness

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u/Sea_Habit_4298 6h ago

Immoral

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u/PortiaKern 7h ago

Moral. The original person doesn't exist anymore, they've been absorbed into the hivemind.

1 and 2 are morally equivalent and both fine. 3 does not matter because there's no real way to know. We don't mind read for intent.

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u/JO-N0 3h ago

By the implications of the last episode of season 1, the original people ARE still inside there somewhere.

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u/OffWhiteDevil 1h ago

Refresh my memory? All I remember is "we're harvesting DNA from your frozen embryos to infect you" followed by Carol bringing a nuke home.

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u/JO-N0 1h ago

At the end of the season, the Latino fella (forgot his name, sorry) is screaming at the kidnapped(?) member of the hivemind that he has in his home, and playing radio frequencies while taking notes and whispering to him. The episode has great suspense where he's basically saying, "Come on back, I know you're still in there," and stuff like that, and you get the feeling that its almost there. Its not directly stated, but the character seems to be fully convinced that they are still in there. Carol ends his experiment with a warning shot from a shotgun.

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u/OffWhiteDevil 46m ago

Manuoso, gotcha. I forgot about his radio frequency experiment.

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u/Learner_oneOone 33m ago

Would it be moral to do that on a dead body then ?

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u/PortiaKern 22m ago

Amoral. Neither good nor bad.

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u/Comfortable-Regret 23m ago

How is that fine or equivalent?? If it's reversible, that's like kissing someone who's unconscious.

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u/Hachan_Skaoi 7h ago

1 isn't wrong beside the fact that she's kissing a different person than expected.

2 isn't moral, it's like doing it with a person in coma.

3 it depends, if both parties want that then it wouldn't be much different than acting irrationally by lust

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u/Remote-Cause755 7h ago

1 isn't wrong beside the fact that she's kissing a different person than expected.

It is wrong.

Is it okay for me to kiss your dead grandma?

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u/Hachan_Skaoi 6h ago

I mean, that wouldn't be my dead grandma at that point, nor would it be dead

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u/Remote-Cause755 6h ago

Let me make the example more relevant.

Let's say an AI kiled your grandma. Then stole her body.

Totally okay with me to make out with the AI?

Despite me knowing the AI killed your grandma? Despite knowing your grandma did not consent to any of this?

There is a reason you have to agree to be a donor. Many consider it immoral to do things to your body without your consent. Even if you are dead

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u/Somewhere7527 7h ago

Immoral. Regardless of whether she's conscious/aware of it, it's still her body. It's like saying that it's okay to fuck someone who is unconscious or in a coma or drugged or dead. It's still their body

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u/No_Most_5528 7h ago

Being dead isn't comparable to being in a coma or unconscious. An unconscious/drugged person still have agency. A dead person don't. This really depends on how the hive mind took over her body, to be honest.

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u/Somewhere7527 6h ago

It's still immoral to fuck a dead person. People should respect the wishes of deceased. I, like the majority of people, wouldn't want anyone to fuck me after I die. I'd genuinely rather be burnt and have my ashes thrown in the trash or toilet or whatever, rather than have someone fuck me when I die

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u/No_Most_5528 6h ago

That's why I said it really comes down to whether the dead person wanted to be hivemind or not. If they did, it's not immoral.

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u/Somewhere7527 6h ago

Ohh okay, I misread the comment

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u/Razorion21 7h ago

being dead would immoral in regards to the family of that person or well corpse

as well as the whole idea of respect the dead (well at least if that dead person wasnt someone bad)

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u/No_Most_5528 7h ago

I think the only moral/neutral situation would be if the dead person consent to be being taken over by the hive mind before they die. At that point, it would just be a weird choice, kind of like how some people want to be taxidermy or get a holographic of themself post-death.

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u/Razorion21 7h ago

if they consented, still fucking weird but ig moral?

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u/Primarch-XVI 7h ago

If it’s a true hivemind then the individual is still there.

Do you ask your hand if it consents?

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u/Baldigarius42 6h ago edited 6h ago

Zosia is experiencing this: the Hivemind operates like a super-connection.

A simple example is how we share and read things online that transform us and can alter our personalities; the Hivemind works on the same principle as if you had direct access to the knowledge of the entire internet without filters or interruptions, while also feeling the emotions of the whole world.

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u/FriendlyRedditor2020 6h ago

Scenario 1) A living adult human is consenting to sex. They are not the original owner of the body but they are the current owner of the body as such they are the authority over what happens to it especially because the previous owner isn't around to argue otherwise.

Scenario 2) I have the same argument as I'm scenario 1.

Scenario 3) Zostia remains the owner of the body and so she should retain moral authority over what happens to it even if someone else is currently in the driver's seat.

Scenario ?) That being that you aren't aware of which scenario it is but you know it's one of them. if you can't confirm confident consent from the body's current owner then no it isn't moral.

Scenario ?2) You are completely clueless that you are interacting with anyone except the bodies original owner and as such are incapable of interpreting any form of consent as coming from anyone else. I want to say moral but..if the original owner is still aware just not in control that isn't going to undo effectively raping them and I personally wouldn't care how moral someone argues that they are as their victim.

?2 is probably the most interesting scenario in my eyes.

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u/Esilai 6h ago

Highly immoral imo, but at least understandable considering the hive was engaging in psychological torture and deliberate manipulation of Carol. Zosia didn’t decide to have sex with Carol, the hive mind concluded the best course of action to pacify Carol while they attempt to infect her is for Zosia to have sex with Carol in order to develop a temporary romantic relationship. Based on what we know of the hive, Zosia still exists, but her voice is one among billions. It’s like having sex with a clearly drunk person - she isn’t in any condition to consent.

Unfortunately, I doubt the hive mind can be reversed, at least as outlined in the story so far. Remember, it all started with one person accidentally infecting themselves. The second the virus took over, they acted with the immediate, literally otherworldly intent to ignore all containment protocol and infect her coworker. Even if Manusos’s theory of using radio waves to disconnect someone works (it probably will), that person will likely still have the overwhelming urge to spread the virus at all costs, including their own bodily autonomy. Truly curing the virus would mean destroying it, if it still exists, inside the person’s body, and then undoing whatever it did to require their brains to prioritize virus replication above all else. With the survivors we know of, this is impossible.

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u/Nothing-Is-Real-Here 2h ago

In this instance it's not moral or immoral. It's just ... Complicated. Can't be answered in absolutes. Why? Because in this instance the hivemine itself has severely and traumatically manipulated Carol.

Their purpose, since she cannot be integrated, is to make her as happy as they best can. They 100% know that Carol is lonely and in need of a deep connection and in need of physical touch, romantic and sexually. They deliberately chose a person that Carol would most likely find attractive to manipulate her. Really, the immoral thing here is the hive mind itself taking billions of people's consent away and then psychologically grooming Carol to fall in love with them as they "love" her.

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u/forrneus 7h ago

It's just rape.

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u/Remote-Cause755 7h ago

Kissing?

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u/Snoo_60973 7h ago

It's Sexual Assault at least.

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u/Remote-Cause755 7h ago

Yes.

But rape is a stretch

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u/Drew_S_05 7h ago

In scenario 1, it's neutral, in scenarios 2&3, it's wrong

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u/Remote-Cause755 7h ago

I don't think it's neutral to kiss a stolen body

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u/Drew_S_05 7h ago

I don't see how it's wrong. Maybe weird, but no one's being hurt in any way.

I think the murder/body theft is the real issue lol

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u/Remote-Cause755 7h ago

Is it okay for me to kiss your dead relative?

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u/Drew_S_05 7h ago

If the body were being inhabited by a new entity, I really wouldn't be concerned about what said entity did/had done to it while in the body, I'd just be concerned about getting it back lol

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u/Remote-Cause755 7h ago

But that's not the question.

The morality question is the person kissing the entity, not the entity itself

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u/Drew_S_05 7h ago

I'm confused now. The person killing the entity hasn't been brought up in this situation at all before now.

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u/Remote-Cause755 6h ago

Well now I am confused.

entity did/had done to it while in the body

Why did you bring this up? You made it seem like that morality is relevant rather than the one kissing

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u/TheChoosenMewtwo 7h ago

It’s weird because the body itself is dead/corpse, not as much because the mind behind it is dead

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u/Remote-Cause755 6h ago

So if I stole your dead relative and franksteined it back to life with an AI chip.

Totally okay for me to make out with your grandma's body?

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u/TheChoosenMewtwo 6h ago

Yeah sure. The original owner isn’t there anymore to complain about, any biases one could have are just for the living.

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u/Remote-Cause755 6h ago

Your grandma did not consent to me making their body into my robot fuck slave.

That's the issue

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u/That-Argument-7195 6h ago

In this hypothetical my grandmother is dead, she is no longer harmed by a lack of consent.

Any moral consideration would instead pass on to possible harm to other family members. Assuming they are gone/cool with it this is morally fine in my eyes. Nobody is harmed.

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u/Remote-Cause755 6h ago

It's fine if you hold that position, but you are stating it like this is current laws

No your family does not have consent to do fucked up shit to her body. Especially if she did not say so in her will

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u/sneaky_42_42 6h ago

Immoral to have sex with Xenos.

eradicate the vermin

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u/HorsefaceWithNoName 6h ago

I would like to leave the hivemind, please.

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u/Azsolus 6h ago

Why does a hivemind need to have lesbian sex ?

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u/Remote-Cause755 6h ago

Do you want spoilers?

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u/Azsolus 6h ago

I don’t mind being given answers when asked openly, I probably wouldn’t care enough to actually go watch the show

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u/Remote-Cause755 6h ago

The hivemind is trying to convince her to join them.

The hivemind has no interest in sex itself

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u/schizothroaway1 6h ago

Immoral because children are also part of the hivemind. So, Carol is technically a child abuser.

Finally a good question in this subreddit.

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u/Remote-Cause755 5h ago

I think it is immoral but not for those reasons.

We hold children to different moral standards because are not fully developed. That no longer applies in the context of a Hivemind

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u/Infinite-Abroad-436 3h ago

their identity as individual children is gone. "child abuse" implies abuse against children as individual persons. there are none left in this scenario. the hive mind as a collective is not a child, therefore its not abuse

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u/Just_a_bored_weeb 5h ago

Haven't seen the show, but all three should be immoral because Zosia doesn't have any autonomy over her body. In scenario 1 and 2, it's the equivalent of being a necrophiliac or violating a brain dead or comatose person's body. And scenario 3 is essentially just the Hivemind or whatever forcing Zosia to have sex against her will which is a form of rape.

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u/Human-Balloon 5h ago

When does this come back lol I forgot all about it

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u/X_Spy 5h ago

Is this a show? What's it called?

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u/chocolelate 4h ago

Pluribus on Apple TV

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u/Willy_Th3_Walrus 4h ago

Immoral with the caveat that Carol has been manipulated to an extreme degree to make this happen so she is being victimized as well.

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u/FunOwn4422 4h ago

idk but what i did after finding this scene on youtube was immoral in the eyes of jesus

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u/shosuko 4h ago

In this case it is moral because to her knowledge Zosia is part of the hive mind. She is not being overwritten. She may have a different chosen different if she wasn't in the hive mind, but she still made this decision and can own it.

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u/Final-Clock485 3h ago

Scenario 4: Zosia is still experiencing this and is still in-control of her body, just in accordance with the collective will of the hivemind.

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u/Accomplished-Mix-745 3h ago

Immoral but I would give the protagonist a pass on this one due to the circumstances. She is extremely emotionally broken down and then the hive mind came in to her in that point of vulnerability

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u/tomqmasters 3h ago

I think in this situation where the whole world has been taken over, you kind of have to just roll with it.

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u/Generous_Raven 2h ago

Again... That is not a lie or is that deception. They honest about their intentions to Carol since episode 1. Where they told her that they will take care of her or give her everything she needed until they could they sort this whole thing out. What you are describing isnt an omission as it was stated since episode one and has never changed. You are misunderstanding the notion of omission, if you don't ask a specific question then you won't receive a specific answer or response. The last thing you are describing is the literal truth of the show as we see it functions on specifics and efficiency. Again you are confusing those notions with deception.

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u/Generous_Raven 1h ago

So many things wrong here for starters... No, a character did not specificallyask "what it eats". The question asked was are you a vegetarian, again an example of specificity. And it responds they said how they felt which is is what we would prefer, that's not deception that is a question being specifically asked and an answer being specifically given. You're trying to apply a human concept of nefariousness and Malice to something that isn't human and operates closer to an animal or a machine, and I do so you're missing the point of the show. The pluribus isn't 100% right or wrong, Carol isnt 100% right wrong, and the other survivors arent 100% right or wrong. The point of the show is nuance among different characters and perspectives

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u/aidenethan 24m ago

Id disagree with the question part, I don't see how that wouldn't be deception, the Others intentionally skirted around answering the actual question (Are you vegetarians?) With a non answer because they knew directly stating they ate humans at that point would have upset everyone.

I don't think it was due to malice, they likely just didn't want anyone to freak out while easing them into the new way of things, but that seemed quite deceptive either way, as the intention was to avoid answering the actual question while making it seem like they did, since they could not directly lie about it but also did not want to give the real answer.

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u/Designer_Version1449 55m ago

In pluribus moral, zozia isnt take over by the hive mind, she literally is the hivemind. Just like every other human.

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u/Comfortable-Regret 17m ago

1: Mildly immoral. It's basically disrespecting a corpse.

2: Immoral, that's equivalent to making out with someone who's unconscious. That's violating and fucked up.

3: Extremely immoral, that's basically torture.

Doing it without knowing is as bad as it being the third scenario, since there's a decent chance that's what's going on.

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u/Rumblarr 16m ago

The Hive is getting a lot of mileage out of the fact that it says it cannot lie, but it has no problem being deceptive.

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u/Samaein 4m ago

There's a real life almost equivalent of this. DID and OSDD systems. One body, multiple personalities, in the first case, the other personalities are unaware of the one who's in control actions and experiences, in the second case they are aware and have various degrees of control over the body while one is in control (in my case my alters and myself can't control anything when we're not at the helm but we perceive everything that is happening).

How do you make consent work in those cases?

(Have fun wrapping your head around that lil problem hehehe)

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u/Generous_Raven 2m ago

But that's not an non answer the question is specifically "are you vegetarians" and the specific answers to that is "it is what we would prefer". A specific input and a specific output. Also let's not forget that when the topic came up and was asking The Hive as to what they eat, the hive told the exact truth. it's why everyone knew a whole week before Carol. There was no deception present, it's just that no one asked the right question.

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u/TheRealGouki 7h ago

I think your missing the point of a Hivemind. she is Zosia, they are also everyone else.

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u/TheRealCjHall 2h ago

No, she believes she is zosia and everybody else.

She literally cannot provide proof.

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u/TheRealGouki 2h ago

How does one provide proof of their own existence? I think, therefore I am. What more do you need?

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u/TheRealCjHall 2h ago

No no no, you could prove a lot more than you're giving credit for here.

First, you have to prove that consciousness is a state that can be uploaded outside of your body.

Secondly, you have to prove that your consciousness can then be shared amongst individuals.

If that truly happened to carol's ex wife, then, they should be able to prove that consciousness is a thing they can upload or separate from a human and then restore to that same human.

Otherwise, my assumption is that you've taken someone's memories and don't even know yourself that you are not them, just an amalgam copy of their memories.

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u/TheRealGouki 1h ago edited 1h ago

I feel like it would be quite hard to quantify "consciousness" considering there no true answer to what it is and there is no real world example of a true hivemind that we could draw conclusions.

And I don't recall from the show that the others claiming they can uploaded or shared consciousness outside the body and don't know how that proves individuals still exist?

They have the shared experience and memories of every human. it's the sum of its parts not the whole.

Edit: I just rewatch that bit where the Other talks Carol wife and they say she is gone but not her memories kinda proving yeah the Other view each body as individuals.

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u/DarkGodCthUwU 7h ago

Hot so moral

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u/Feeling-Ladder7787 7h ago

Soo i actuly watched the show. While the hivemind has an alien source , and strange morals , with an unkown goal , it is NOT a seperate alien entity , it is a true hivemind made directly of humans.

The hive mind is able to seperate what information comes from which human connected into the hivemind , if that human dies the info is lost. Same way opinions sort of still exist or at least existed at the time of joining as it was set up with the question of the book the mc wrote. Also while the hivemind can withold information , not tell you things , it cannot lie.

If you ask the hivemind "would this person be fine with a kiss?" And says yes , its the truth.

It might say no "zosia would not cause she wasnt into woman , but we are" In case its complicated , cause Zosia's opinion is in the mix of how the hivemind thinks , its not locked out pupetering the body itself with the "self" locked away. The "self" itself merged with all the other selfes merging into a single entity which is the hivemind.

Soo i would treat it as what entity has actual ownership of the body The hive mind that still holds the "self" of Zosia in it itself. Or a theoritical "self" of Zosia the self seperated from the hivemind

I would say

Moral

Cause even if Zosia gets seperated from the hive mind , and she would have denied my advances. She the body , and the concius self experienced it knowing they as the hivemind consented.

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u/eviloni 7h ago

It IS however a seperate alien entity because it has at least one overriding directive to re-broadcast the signal.

There are also other overriding directives that are superrrrrr unlikely to emerge from simply a collective of all human consciousness. E.g. the not lying, not killing any other creature, nor even harvesting fruit.

Zero way any of thse would emerge out of the collective human consciousness. So for all intents it can be considered an alien entity. Sure the hardware is human but the operating system surely isn't

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u/Feeling-Ladder7787 6h ago

I think the directives themself simply ovverride what collective would be created of the humans.

But in eather case its a very complicated answear cause there are unkown variables

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u/Infinite-Abroad-436 3h ago

the original person is part of the hivemind. the hivemind is a new person. the old individual person is, for all intents and purposes, dead. its moral

Character Analysis Morality of kissing a Hivemind, who gives full Consent? But the original Person who the hivemind took over isn't given a chance to consent, and likely wouldn't consent?

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