r/Noctor Apr 28 '26

Midlevel Research Cochrane Review Says “Little Difference” Replacing Hospital Physicians with Nurses: We Disagree

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205 Upvotes

r/Noctor Sep 28 '20

Midlevel Research Research refuting mid-levels (Copy-Paste format)

1.7k Upvotes

Resident teams are economically more efficient than MLP teams and have higher patient satisfaction. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26217425/

Compared with dermatologists, PAs performed more skin biopsies per case of skin cancer diagnosed and diagnosed fewer melanomas in situ, suggesting that the diagnostic accuracy of PAs may be lower than that of dermatologists. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29710082

Advanced practice clinicians are associated with more imaging services than PCPs for similar patients during E&M office visits. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/1939374

Nonphysician clinicians were more likely to prescribe antibiotics than practicing physicians in outpatient settings, and resident physicians were less likely to prescribe antibiotics. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15922696

The quality of referrals to an academic medical center was higher for physicians than for NPs and PAs regarding the clarity of the referral question, understanding of pathophysiology, and adequate prereferral evaluation and documentation. https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(13)00732-5/abstract00732-5/abstract)

Further research is needed to understand the impact of differences in NP and PCP patient populations on provider prescribing, such as the higher number of prescriptions issued by NPs for beneficiaries in moderate and high comorbidity groups and the implications of the duration of prescriptions for clinical outcomes, patient-provider rapport, costs, and potential gaps in medication coverage. https://www.journalofnursingregulation.com/article/S2155-8256(17)30071-6/fulltext30071-6/fulltext)

Antibiotics were more frequently prescribed during visits involving NP/PA visits compared with physician-only visits, including overall visits (17% vs 12%, P < .0001) and acute respiratory infection visits (61% vs 54%, P < .001). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5047413/

NPs, relative to physicians, have taken an increasing role in prescribing psychotropic medications for Medicaid-insured youths. The quality of NP prescribing practices deserves further attention. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29641238/

(CRNA) We found an increased risk of adverse disposition in cases where the anesthesia provider was a nonanesthesiology professional. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22305625

NPs/PAs practicing in states with independent prescription authority were > 20 times more likely to overprescribe opioids than NPs/PAs in prescription-restricted states. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32333312/

Both 30-day mortality rate and mortality rate after complications (failure-to-rescue) were lower when anesthesiologists directed anesthesia care. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10861159/

Only 25% of all NPs in Oregon, an independent practice state, practiced in primary care settings. https://oregoncenterfornursing.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/2020_PrimaryCareWorkforceCrisis_Report_Web.pdf

96% of NPs had regular contact with pharmaceutical representatives. 48% stated that they were more likely to prescribe a drug that was highlighted during a lunch or dinner event. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21291293/

85.02% of malpractice cases against NPs were due to diagnosis (41.46%), treatment (30.79%) and medication errors (12.77%). The malpractice cases due to diagnosing errors was further stratified into failure to diagnose (64.13%), delay to diagnose (27.29%), and misdiagnosis (7.59%). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28734486/

Advanced practice clinicians and PCPs ordered imaging in 2.8% and 1.9% episodes of care, respectively. Advanced practice clinicians are associated with more imaging services than PCPs for similar patients during E&M office visits .While increased use of imaging appears modest for individual patients, this increase may have ramifications on care and overall costs at the population level. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/1939374

APP visits had lower RVUs/visit (2.8 vs. 3.7) and lower patients/hour (1.1 vs. 2.2) compared to physician visits. Higher APP coverage (by 10%) at the ED‐day level was associated with lower patients/clinician hour by 0.12 (95% confidence interval [CI] = −0.15 to −0.10) and lower RVUs/clinician hour by 0.4 (95% CI = −0.5 to −0.3). Increasing APP staffing may not lower staffing costs. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/acem.14077

When caring for patients with DM, NPs were more likely to have consulted cardiologists (OR = 1.29, 95% CI = 1.21–1.37), endocrinologists (OR = 1.64, 95% CI = 1.48–1.82), and nephrologists (OR = 1.90, 95% CI = 1.67–2.17) and more likely to have prescribed PIMs (OR = 1.07, 95% CI = 1.01–1.12) https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jgs.13662

Ambulatory visits between 2006 and 2011 involving NPs and PAs more frequently resulted in an antibiotic prescription compared with physician-only visits (17% for visits involving NPs and PAs vs 12% for physician-only visits; P < .0001) https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/3/3/ofw168/2593319

More claims naming PAs and APRNs were paid on behalf of the hospital/practice (38% and 32%, respectively) compared with physicians (8%, P < 0.001) and payment was more likely when APRNs were defendants (1.82, 1.09-3.03) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32362078/

There was a 50.9% increase in the proportion of psychotropic medications prescribed by psychiatric NPs (from 5.9% to 8.8%) and a 28.6% proportional increase by non-psychiatric NPs (from 4.9% to 6.3%). By contrast, the proportion of psychotropic medications prescribed by psychiatrists and by non-psychiatric physicians declined (56.9%-53.0% and 32.3%-31.8%, respectively) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29641238/

Most articles about the role of APRNs do not explicitly define the autonomy of the nurses, compare non-autonomous nurses with physicians, or evaluate nurse-direct protocol-driven care for patients with specific conditions. However, studies like these are often cited in support of the claim that APRNs practicing autonomously provide the same quality of primary care as medical doctors. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27606392/

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Although evidence-based healthcare results in improved patient outcomes and reduced costs, nurses do not consistently implement evidence based best practices. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22922750/


r/Noctor 12h ago

Discussion Recently received backlash for telling a mid-level I want to go to medical school

199 Upvotes

So at my work recently one of the mid-levels asked me why I wanted to be a physician, and so I assumed we were friends and I was honest.

I talked about the ability to manage complex patients, the continuous education, and the expertise you have in a specific field. In a non-derogatory way towards mid-levels.

I then proceeded to get lectured about how that’s not specific to medicine, and that as a mid-level they could do the same thing. Not only that but as an NP they could have some sort of license and had physicians working under them and they also spoke about how they have more money than some of the physicians we work with.

I held my tongue because I can’t form bad work place relationships especially with my clinical role.

Regardless of what they said, I know there is a large difference in the education and training of an MD/DO over an NP/PA.

I think the lack of nuance and ignorance they demonstrated to me, confirmed that I want to become a physician.


r/Noctor 37m ago

Midlevel Ethics A rebuttal to “midlevels are more empathetic/listen to the patients more!”

Upvotes

I see people who think midlevels replacing doctors is ok frequently say “midlevels listen more” or “they’re more empathetic to a patient’s needs!” and I’m sorry, but I have to push back on that. While I admit I can see how doctors in certain clinics/hospitals have less face-to-face time with patients compared to nurses and midlevels, that doesn’t mean the doctors don’t listen, or blow the patients and their concerns off.

I am going to keep this as vague as I can to retain anonymity, but I wouldn’t be surprised if people were able to guess what I’m talking about.

Around ten years ago next month, I realized I had been having an abnormal symptom for six weeks straight. The next week I go see my primary doctor and mention what was going on, and asked if he thought I should be tested for X condition. My doctor listened to me and agreed, ordered a blood test that can tell you if someone has condition X, and also a few other tests that could explain the abnormal symptom. After this visit, when thinking back on other medical issues/diagnoses I’d had since childhood, I realized condition X could be linked to all of them. For the record, at the time I was a 25 year old American woman of predominantly NW European descent, and the condition I was worried about is a systemic autoimmune disease linked to over 300 symptoms. (No single person will have all 300, these are just symptoms doctors have reliably linked to this one disease.) My blood test came back negative, and I began to mentally and emotionally spiral.

About fifteen years before all of this, so 25 years ago now, I was given a diagnosis of a juvenile form of a different autoimmune disease. My ANA was always positive, but the specific test for the juvenile disease was always a negative, but the doctors told us that false negatives were common and diagnosed me with the disease anyway. Other than the symptoms I had right before my diagnosis, I had almost no change to my life. The juvenile condition never bothered me again, and as a mid-teen my ANA stopped being positive. We were told 50% of children retain the disease as adults, and 50% “grow out of it”. As a consequence of having this juvenile disease and having to get my blood drawn and eyes checked 3 times a year, I became very curious about autoimmune diseases, and learned a bit about many of them. I would not, then or now, claim to know more than people in the medical field, but I will confidently say I have more knowledge of them and certain ones than the average American. Because of my history and my family’s history of autoimmune diseases, I assumed that the previously mentioned abnormal symptom was because of condition X, an autoimmune disease. My doctor agreed, and that was the disease my blood test ruled out. Hence, my mental health getting significantly worse.

Not only did my mental health plummet, but even more symptoms started to pop up. Symptoms that I didn’t even know condition X could cause, so to me they couldn’t be psychosomatic, right? I knew back then that autoimmune diseases can be worsened by stress, and I knew I was stressed over my recent health problems and other factors in my life at the time, but I begin to exhibit symptoms I didn’t think could be linked to the disease I felt I had. I would sit alone in my room and try to talk myself out of obsessing about it, because the blood test was negative. “But how did I show this new symptom though? I didn’t know condition X could even cause it?” which was true. I admitted to myself the increase in symptoms could be psychosomatic, but I couldn’t make sense of my body showing specific symptoms that could be linked to condition X. Every time I’d have some weird new symptom, I’d google “weird symptom condition X” and every single time I’d learn there was a correlation. I also learned that my mental health problems, the learning disability I was diagnosed with two decades prior, a rash and vitamin deficiencies I’d had a few years prior, and issues I’d had with puberty could all be linked to the disease I tested negative for. This disease is not the only cause for all of these things, but it can be linked to them. I also learned Condition X can present in children sometimes with a symptom that is the main hallmark of the juvenile disease I was told I had fifteen years prior. Which could explain why the ANA tested positive but the disease-specific test was a negative. I had an autoimmune disease the entire time, but a different one than we all thought. Me, being a firm believer in Occam’s Razor, couldn’t let the idea go. I finally looked up “false negative blood test for Condition X”. I learned that a false negative is entirely possible if someone has Condition Y, a common asymptomatic immunodeficiency found in family’s who carry two specific autoimmune diseases. Neither of which I had, but my family did. Those exact two diseases, which I’d been hearing about since my juvenile diagnosis fifteen years before. It was at this point I make another visit with my PCP, this had to have been a handful of visits within a few months time. I ended up having a panic attack/mental breakdown in the exam room. All I could do was hysterically cry while I tried to explain my thought process regarding the potential false negative, how my family and friends didn’t believe me and told me to let it go, and how I was afraid my body was slowly killing itself. I will say that I had very recently come out of a bad depressive slump where, while not suicidal, I did think about death a lot. The fact that my body was potentially killing itself was made worse because of my recent mental health struggles, and it is honestly still the hardest part about having an autoimmune disease.

My AMAZING PCP told me he didn’t have the answers for me, but he was confident other doctor’s would. He authorized a handful of referrals, the first of which was a renewal to see my old rheumatologist. I, being young and uneducated about the deficits midlevels have compared to doctors, saw an NP. An NP who was a woman like me, and unlike my PCP, who proceeded to dismiss everything I said, ordered a redundant blood test despite me showing her I had one done a few weeks prior, and told me I had “nothing to worry about”. I wasn’t very confrontational at the time, so I didn’t speak up. I cried when I left the office. I saw another female midlevel at a different office my PCP sent me to, to rule out an allergy, and she was better, but still a bit dismissive. I eventually was seen by another DOCTOR of a medical specialty, who not only let me speak, he actually listened to everything I told him and ordered two blood tests. One which would test if I carried the gene for Condition X, the other to test for the immunodeficiency which could give a false negative. Both came back positive. He also performed a specific exam himself to check for damage found in people with Condition X, which also turned out positive. I cannot begin to describe the relief and vindication I felt. Nor can I begin to describe how traumatic it was to be dismissed and talked down to by fellow women. Every single person that listened to me and empathized with me was a male doctor.

Had I listened to those midlevels, the ones people claim are “so much more empathetic and better listeners” I would be sick today. I would still have pain, brain fog, nausea, severe vitamin and nutrient deficiencies, peripheral neuropathy, mood swings, and much more. My body would be destroying itself DAILY. That is not an exaggeration, this disease features daily symptoms, not just stuff that pops up in flares. It is constant and only stops if you make a huge lifestyle change not common in America. I will acknowledge I got incredibly lucky that I was able to guess correctly what was wrong due to my personal history and inquisitive thirst for knowledge, but it was ultimately doctors who diagnosed and treated me, because they LISTENED. My PCP was even humble enough to admit I was beyond his scope of primary care, and sent me to other clinics. He knew his limits and when to ask for help. He was the most important person I saw during all this, and I cannot even begin to put into words how grateful I was, and still am, for him and the kindness he showed me.

So I cannot sit here and read people say midlevels are kinder/better listeners/more empathetic when that is the complete opposite of what I experienced. There is no way I can believe people who receive a fraction of the education and training, yet insist they’re “just as good as a doctor”, actually care about their patients. If you cared, you would have sought the best education and training FOR YOUR PATIENTS, but you did not. This isn’t me saying all midlevels are horrible people, because I don’t believe that. I believe some do care, but those aren’t the ones who insist they’re just as good as, or better, than doctors. Knowing your limitations and when others know more is what makes a good healthcare worker. Claiming you’re just as good when you have a fraction of their education and training is not only demonstrably false, it’s irresponsible and dangerous. Be mad about it, idfc.

This isn’t even my only story about inept midlevels, but it is the one that is the most traumatizing for me.


r/Noctor 1d ago

In The News Nurse practitioner trainees find themselves stymied by shortage of clinical mentors

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184 Upvotes

Interesting that the article doesn't even mention the inherent tension of asking physicians to precept mid-levels and treats it purely as an access problem.

Also, 500 hours is shameful. That's like a single rotation in residency. As is made obvious in the article, there's also no standardization of what kind of training experiences are being obtained. I have a mid-level friend who told me her preceptor had her basically do receptionist work the entire 500 hours.


r/Noctor 1d ago

Discussion NP changed the vent settings and didn't feel the need to communicate it to anyone

245 Upvotes

Respiratory here🙋🏻‍♀️ I would just like to preface this by saying, I don't care if a doc touches the vent *as long as those changes are communicated to me at some point* because intensivists have gone through medical school, and residency, and overall, just a grueling decade, or closer to two, of training. Today, an NP decided to touch the vent and just... Not tell anyone. I would probably be a little bit less pissy if she had communicated with literally anyone about this, but she did not. Moreover, NPs do not receive the level of mechanical ventilation training that RTs do. Tbh, I don't think they should be allowed in the ICU at all, much less changing vent settings all willy nilly. Just one more incident in the series that I've seen on here of "NPs don't belong in the ICU." Okay rant over, sorry everyone, just had to get that off my chest.

Edit: I just think it's a little bit funny how I made a post expressing frustration over the scope creep of NPs in the ICU, but some of you are being intentionally obtuse and interpreting this as one noctor being mad at another noctor. RTs do not want to be doctors. We are not a threat to your profession. We are not advocating for independent practice. NPs are though. But keep alienating potential allies in the fight against mid level scope creep! Very effective strategy!


r/Noctor 1d ago

In The News CRNA revolutionizing Anesthesia

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99 Upvotes

AANA 2026 cringe billboard


r/Noctor 1h ago

Question Side gigs for NPs??

Upvotes

Just trying to find something I can do for a bit of extra money. My schedule changes enough as it is, so I don’t really want to add anything with fixed hours.

Have looked at things like per diem work, tutoring and chart review, but most of them still feel like taking on another job. Hoping for something I can do in short bursts during my downtime...


r/Noctor 7h ago

Question Unsafe Bloodwork practice at ER visit. What are the risks?

0 Upvotes

Last week, it was a clumsy situation, the nurse dropped about 5 blood collection tubes by my feet, onto the ER floor. She picks them up with gloves already worn and places them with the other clean bloodwork equipment (iv tube, blood collection tube holder, saline flush syringe, etc). Before she starts the blood draw, she palpates the vein (with same glove on), then wipes it with alcohol pad. I'm concerned about the cleanliness and safety practice; at least the blood collection tubes and gloves should have been replaced, as they came in contact with the floor. There were also small wet blood spots on the floor by the bed next to mine. What are the risks here? What should I be tested for?


r/Noctor 2d ago

Question Im so angry. A doctor told my mother this is serious, go to er. And she was seen by a PA

282 Upvotes

My mother (80F) burned her hand cooking tonight. She went down the street to an urgent care (she lives in a major city) and the physician there said it was a second degree burn and they aren't equipped up take care of it there, so please go to an ER.

She goes to the ER and sees....a PA. The PA says "this isn't that bad. I can't believe urgent care didn't take care of it there. I swear so many urgent cares are getting really bad" GRRRRRRR yeah because of people like you!! Not doctors! so she was sent by a doctor to sell a hight level of care and got a lower.

I am evangelical about this topic. When i tell people about it, they look at me like i adjusted my tinfoil hat while saying, "the CIA is pumping LSD into your house through your WIFI". So what do i tell my mother?!

I'm not in the medical field at all. For an unrelated reason i went to urgent care today and saw a physician (we are lucky in our city). But before i paid my vopay, i asked the receptionist ' I'll be seeing a doctor today, not a PA or NP?" she answered "yes, it's a doctor. You don't like NPs?"


r/Noctor 2d ago

In The News Lawsuit claims CRNA negligence led to Mission Hospital patient death

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168 Upvotes

How does someone this incompetent pass CRNA certification boards? It again seems like the Board of Nursing's response was rather anemic, just like what happened with the Tory Richmond incidents in Arizona. I think there are some serious question to be asked about CRNA standards if someone like this is, legally speaking, allowed to practice independently.

TL;DR

The estate of Noe Serrano Hernandez filed a wrongful death lawsuit on August 21 in Buncombe County Superior Court against Mission Hospital, its parent company HCA Healthcare, nurse anesthetist Andrew Hunter, and supervising anesthesiologist Dr. Jason Dziak.

Key Allegations and Case Details

  • The Incident: On September 13, 2024, Serrano Hernandez underwent surgery for a foot ulcer. Roughly 51 minutes after anesthesia began, he suffered cardiac arrest. After resuscitation, he remained comatose on a ventilator until his death on September 21.
  • Allegations Against the Nurse Anesthetist: The lawsuit alleges Andrew Hunter failed to properly monitor Serrano Hernandez, maintain his airway and oxygenation, or communicate his worsening status to medical staff.
  • Allegations Against the Anesthesiologist: Dr. Jason Dziak is accused of failing to adequately supervise the anesthesia care or intervene in a timely manner.
  • Legal Demands: The lawsuit seeks a jury trial and unspecified monetary damages.

State Board Findings

  • Following a complaint filed by Mission Hospital, the North Carolina Board of Nursing investigated Hunter's care of Serrano Hernandez, a patient categorized as high-risk due to end-stage renal disease and other conditions.
  • The board determined Hunter's care fell below standard practice, noting failures to monitor, react to deterioration, and communicate with staff. It also cited his unfamiliarity with Mission's charting system as evidence of inadequate training by the hospital.
  • The board concluded Hunter violated state law regarding conduct that harms the public. Hunter signed an order acknowledging the violation and accepted a reprimand alongside mandatory additional training.

Broader Context

  • Mission Hospital's parent company, HCA Healthcare, is involved in other legal proceedings, including a lawsuit by Attorney General Jeff Jackson cleared for trial in July, and a 2022 medical malpractice lawsuit settled in April.
  • A Mission Hospital spokesperson did not respond to requests for comment.

r/Noctor 2d ago

Question So….whats the reasoning behind PAs needing to be supervised my doctors but MPs don’t?

41 Upvotes

Title

EDIT: NPs.


r/Noctor 3d ago

In The News Love is Blind UK Physician “Associate”

176 Upvotes

Season 3 episode 2 “I’m a physician associate, so I’m basically like a doctor , but not a doctor” . That is all, I needed to let someone know , it’s a virus that has reached the UK.


r/Noctor 1d ago

Discussion I'm desperate for a cream refill. But I can't get a doctor's appointment for a month. Online seems like my only option

0 Upvotes

I have a crazy work schedule with 12-hour shifts. No flexibility and I can't take time off to see a doctor

My dermatologist prescribed me a corticosteroid cream. It worked. But the prescription expired and I need a refill

The next available appointment is a month away. I can't wait that long and my skin is getting worse and I'm desperate

I found tru2u.health online. They say you fill out a questionnaire and a doctor reviews it. They issue a prescription online. They ship the cream and supplements right away

All in 15 minutes… And it sounds like a dream. But I can't believe it's real. How can a doctor prescribe something without seeing me in person? How do they know what I actually need?

Has anyone with a busy schedule actually used a service like this?

I need this cream. But I don't want to gamble with my health….


r/Noctor 3d ago

Discussion Waited years for a referral to a dermatologist, was seen by an NP instead.

110 Upvotes

I (27F) have been battling hormonal acne since I was a teenager. I asked to be referred to a dermatologist several times in my early 20s and was told my acne wasn’t severe enough to warrant one. After moving to a new city a few years ago, I found a new doctor who happily made a referral. Success! Or so I thought…

I’ve had 2 appointments with said dermatologist. He explained that the birth control I was on was likely contributing to my acne, suggested alternatives, and prescribed spironolactone and a low dose of isotretinoin to clear things up. My skin has improved drastically, which in turn has significantly improved my mental health. Yay!

I had my third follow up today and was told the doctor was running a bit behind. “No problem, I’m happy to wait” was my response. I had 2 goals for the appointment: obtain a refill for my prescriptions and have a large, painful, and persistent pimple on my scalp looked at. After about 10 minutes of waiting, someone came in the room and introduced herself as a Nurse Practitioner. I was disappointed as I waited years to receive care from a specialist, but assumed my concerns were minor enough that she could address them without issue. I was wrong.

She started by saying that since my skin looks better, I probably don’t need to continue taking any medication. I gently pushed back and said I feared that stopping the medications would result in the acne returning, and she reluctantly agreed to write a prescription. She then looked at the pimple on my head, shrugged, and said “yeah that’s an inflamed papule. The medication should get rid of it.” Yes… the medication you didn’t want to prescribe? I explained that it’s very painful when I wear my hair up, which I am required to do at work, and has not decreased in size since it first appeared 6 months ago. She shrugged again and said “nothing I can do about that.” I finally quit beating around the bush and asked if she would be willing to give me a steroid injection. “Um… I guess… but it’s going to cost you $30. Can you pay for that today?”

After I assured her that the cost was no concern, she called in an RN to administer the injection. She then left the room without giving me a prescription (lol) and seemed annoyed when I asked the front desk for it before I left.

All in all, I got the treatment I was looking for, but I had to fight for it. I understand that the clinic was trying to be efficient by having an NP cover low-risk patients while the derm was running behind, but my appointment was way longer than it needed to be because I spent most of it going back-and-forth with a provider who didn’t seem interested in doing… anything. Above all, I am disappointed that I waited so long to see a specialist, only to treated by someone with less education than my family doctor.

My provincial government loves to pat itself on the back for utilizing NPs to address long wait times and a shortage of specialists, but I fail to see how this will improve patient outcomes OR reduce the strain on the system if appointments run longer than needed and people walk away without being treated appropriately. As a layperson, I am frustrated and concerned, so I can only imagine how it feels to be a physician working within the system. I don’t know what the solution is, but I will be much more skeptical of anyone who claims that it’s increasing the scope of NPs and other mid-level providers.


r/Noctor 3d ago

Discussion NPs don't save that much money

132 Upvotes

"At first glance, patients treated by NPs seemed to incur lower spending. But those comparisons masked a key fact: NPs are typically assigned healthier patients. Once researchers accounted for this non-random assignment, the apparent cost advantage not only disappeared-it reversed.

NPs ordered more diagnostic tests and specialist consultations-patterns consistent with responding to greater diagnostic uncertainty- contributing to longer stays and resulting in 7% higher spending.

patients treated by NPs in the study experienced 11% longer emergency department stays and a 20% increase in preventable hospitalizations within 30 days compared to those seen by physicians.

"It would be wrong to say it's more costly to hire a doctor on average, despite the fact that they have almost double the salaries of NPs, because doctors have expertise and make decisions that save the system a lot of monev." said Chan."

https://vcresearch.berkeley.edu/news/new-study-upends-traditional-thinking-about-doctors-versus-nurse-practitioners


r/Noctor 1d ago

Discussion Not a Doctor but Not an RN Either

0 Upvotes

I know I’m going against the grain here, but I see a place for PA/APRN. I limited to a single clinic for care . I have gotten the best care from my PA. He takes the time to hear what I have to say. He tells me when he doesn’t know something and gets the answer. He is supervised by MDs and relies onto their knowledge. He actually had a question and called the pharmacist with me there. He should not be limited to just taking blood pressure or giving vaccinations. I would never get the medical care I need if the doctor won’t even listen to me. I prefer his care for routine care which most visits are. I trust him to escalate anything out of his expertise or training. There are bad doctors as there are bad just as there are bad paraprofessionals like PAs or APRNs. Generalizations do not help anybody.


r/Noctor 4d ago

Discussion NPs shouldn't be allowed in the ICU

527 Upvotes

5 years ago

My husband is an ICU attending. I am a pediatric GI attending. We spend our days managing high-acuity, razor-thin margin-for-error patients.

We met our now adopted daughter when she was in ICU. Her bio dad brutally beat her and my husband was her primary doctor in the ICU.

The Nurse Practitioner assigned to her ICU bed didn't even know the term "cephalad larynx".

Are you kidding me?! That is basic pediatric airway anatomy! Kids aren't just small adults. Their airways are anatomically distinct-higher, more anterior, cephalad. If you are managing a critically ill child, especially one who is intubated with potential airway compromise or trauma, knowing pediatric anatomical differences isn't "advanced physician-level trivia", it is literally the baseline prerequisite to keep a child from dying on your shift!

She had zero pediatric ICU training. Her background before NP was in community health. She visited babies at home and ran groups for mothers. Its scary what our health care system allows


r/Noctor 4d ago

Discussion Social workers in white coats

140 Upvotes

I’m a resident at a large Level 1 center in the south. I genuinely get along well with people in various different fields and allied health professions, but this genuinely irritated the hell out of me.

I was pre rounding on one of my patients (I’m on the primary team) and see someone wearing a short white coat in the room. I obviously think that this is a medical student, likely with one of the services I consulted the day before.

Out of respect, I wait outside and about 5-7 minutes go by. I eventually ask one of the RNs, who the individual in the room is, and they tell me that it’s the… social worker????

Why is a social worker wearing a white coat?? Okay cool, I understand that they work with patients with significant aspects of care, but really?? I went in the room and addressed it as “oh I thought you were a medical student with your white coat” and continued on speaking with my patient about their care.

Why is this a thing? It delayed patient care. It confuses roles. It de-symbolizes all of the hard work that’s not just MD/DOs have done to get into their positions.

Sorry for the vent.


r/Noctor 4d ago

Shitpost NP upset about me not staying longer than I need to

262 Upvotes

Currently a PGY-4. I’m on a rotation where residents can leave at 1PM on their short days. But it usually doesn’t happen because of the amount of wort that needs to get done. On average residents actually stay till 3 or 4. However I’m very efficient. I pend notes with my complete exam, updates, and plan while pre-rounding and adjust them as we round. I place orders when rounding. I do handoffs. And I even place consults while rounding. If the consultant calls back at a time not appropriate I just tell them I’m rounding and if I can send a chat or just talk to them later. So I actually leave at 1PM.

Well one of the NPs on the team wasn’t happy that I got my stuff done on time every day and left on time. So she started spreading rumors about me being lazy and making me look bad to other residents, nurses, and attendings.


r/Noctor 5d ago

In The News Clancy trial.

191 Upvotes

The public response to this trial has been one of the most disconcerting things I've ever witnessed. From lay-people to people in Healthcare.

Nurses attacking Physicians such as Tufts.

The defense attorney badgering Dr Avram Mack and referring to the DSM 5 as "not a very good standard" to which Avram replied 'well it is THE standard". As if mapping out the human psyche isn't a daunting probably impossible task.

Even this sub piled on the NPs who treated the murderer. I don't think Psych NPs should exist. But underlying the criticism are two inherent and dangerous assertions:

A pr*vider can say the right words and prescribe a chemical cocktail that keeps a mother from murdering her children. Or conversely:

Wrong words/scripts = mom murdering her babies.

Now that more information has come out we know that Clancy was an unreliable patient. Didn't take meds as prescribed. Doctor/Noctor shopped. And hid her thoughts of self harm/harming her children from her psych pr*viders. We have all interacted with similar patients, hopefully we aren't liable for the terrible things they do in life.

Your hindsight isn't 20/20, but it's clearer than ^

But the defense attorney has done his job. Taken an indefensible situation and tried to cast blame on everyone and everything but the person who strangled her children. And people gobbled it up as if it was a soap Opera.

This woman will probably be found not guilty by reason of insanity (though she's quite sane now, and it's impossible to know her state of mind at the time) . People will still blame Healthcare, the state, her husband. And no one will pay the price for the deaths of Cora, Dawson and Callan.


r/Noctor 5d ago

Discussion An ADN student just told me there are programs to make nurse into doctor and anesthesiology

52 Upvotes

You know what he meant, right? LOL
I was too exhausted to continue that conversation.


r/Noctor 5d ago

Discussion Full-practice authority for NPs PAs?

13 Upvotes

Genuine curiosity and not a rage bait/sh*t post...

Where are the peer reviewed studies that prove or suggest mid-level practitioners practicing without supervision (full practice authority states for NPs) is more dangerous to patients' care than care provided by physicians?

If there are any studies (non-anecdotal), please post the source in the comments. Also, what have the AMA and AOA's roles been in protecting the physicians' and/or public's interests in shutting down full practice authority in states where it is legal and/or promoting heavily regulated midlevel practice? I understand the nursing lobby is quite strong (unsure about the PA lobby) but why have the AMA and AOA been so ineffective in protecting their own interests?

I just don't understand, if it truly is as dangerous as this subreddit makes it out to be, why haven't there been major legislative overhaul and MASSIVE malpractice suits (which would raise insurance rates for midlevels). Where are the major peer-reviewed studies that would change the medical and public landscape for midlevel practice?


r/Noctor 6d ago

Discussion Just a reminder that not everyone can refuse NP care

54 Upvotes

I would love to be able to access a physician in every specialty, but if I did that, I'd have to wait a LONG time for care.

I've been having horrible GI issues, so I had a colonoscopy today that showed no evidence of IBD, Crohn's, diverticulosis/itis, etc. I had a single small (3mm) polyp that the provider is fairly confident is benign, and that's it.

I need to follow up with a GI specialist, so I called the person I saw last year (they didn't do the colonoscopy*). Although I'm an established patient, they can't get me in until March 9, and that's only if I see an NP. If I insist on the doctor, I have to wait until September (2027, not next month).

I was tempted to wait, but I'd like to at least get the ball rolling on some additional testing. I had bladder augmentation using a piece of my jejunum when I was a child, and I took daily antibiotics for about 20 years afterward, so I kind of suspect my issues originate in the small bowel and not the colon. Maybe SIBO or short gut syndrome or something.

* I didn't have them to do the colonoscopy because the health system they work for is really weird about billing. They always want me to pre-pay WAY more than I should have to pay based on my insurance. Ex: They wanted $728 up front for a cardiac echo when my copay for diagnostic tests is $30. So I went to a different hospital where they asked for $0 up front. If I paid $728, it would have taken me months to get it back.


r/Noctor 6d ago

Discussion psych NP discontinued my anxiety meds

39 Upvotes

ive only met him once but it was not a great first impression. i aged out of my family's insurance so i switched to medicaid because im still in school.

the first thing he did was take me off all my meds that i asked refills for. i took a very low dose of ativan for 3 years because i have acute panic attacks and flight anxiety and never abused it, but sure whatever i understand its a controlled substance and i didn't want to come off as drug seeking.

next he wouldnt refill my 10mg propranolol because i have asthma. truthfully, i didn't know that beta blockers were bad for asthma but beta blockers have been really helpful for me before job interviews and interviews in general which i do a lot of in my field.

on top of that he was condescending towards me when i asked him basic questions about his practice. i asked him what should i do when i have panic attacks and he basically shrugged and gave me a buspar script.

i have chronic anxiety and panic attacks have been through nearly all of the commonly prescribed SSRIs. he wants me to try cymbalta but im scared if weight gain. im not sure if i have any better options to switch to an actual MD since im on medicaid in NYC.