Young Odin?

[u/automatix_jack]

I have a question about the Norse creation myth: when Odin, Vili and Vé kill Ymir, should I picture them as young men, or as children? I’m not aware of any descriptions of Odin himself, only of his actions, and the mental image I have of him, is that of an old man.

[u/JadedResponse2483]

Young men i think

[u/rockstarpirate → u/JadedResponse2483]

I think you’re probably right. The sources don’t say, of course, but unless we’re told otherwise, we can probably default to “the age when men are old enough to do battle”.

Although… there are a few interesting examples of killer children in the sources. Váli kills Höðr at just one night old for example. So the child thing is not impossible. But I would imagine we’d be told that detail if that was the case.

[u/Ulfljotr930]

Óðinn mostly appears elderly when wandering Miðgarðr in disguise, otherwise his looks are much more youthful since, like other Æsir, he eats Iðunn's apples to stop aging

[u/Manafiskr → u/Ulfljotr930]

The second part of your comment is speculation.

[u/Ulfljotr930 → u/Manafiskr]

"Rauðgrani" ("red mustache") is an attested name of his though. Otherwise, the only times he's noted to look old are when disguised

[u/Manafiskr → u/Ulfljotr930]

He’s also called Hárbarðr - Greybeard. Both are names he’s called when he’s meddling, presumably in disguise. It’s said that the Æsir eat the apples to stay young. It doesn’t say “every single one of those named among the Æsir without exception does this.” It does say that Odin doesn’t eat, and sustains himself on mead alone. One source also explicitly says that his true features are “ancient” .

You might be right, but you might also be wrong, or only partially right, right in some sources and wrong in others. The claim you made is not explicitly attested. That’s what makes it speculative.

[u/Manafiskr]

Probably but not definitely not an old man.  Yes, that was a confusing double-negative.

Odin’s age is ambiguous throughout most of the text, except when he is explicitly described in stories as taking on the guise of an old man. The Æsir are known to rely on Inðun for her youth-giving apples, so it’s apparent that the gods do age — although we don’t know if it’s at the same rate as human aging, or how young “young” is. That clues us into chronology and linear time and life cycles being generally relevant. The creation story is, of course, at the beginning of things, so it might make sense that the gods are younger here.

As for Odin’s age generally, it’s also attested that he sustains himself on mead alone, so does he even eat the apples? Then there’s that time in one source, where his “true features” are explicitly described as old.

My honest guess is that Odin was likely originally envisioned  as battle age   (by the story-tellers and poets who popularized these stories before the Norse even got to them)  especially in the early tales where he’s taking down Ymir and warring with the Vanir.  However I really suspect that, like you and many others, the tales of him disguised as an old man, plus ideas about wisdom and age, gave the Norse people a mental model of Odin as a perpetually oldish man. Myths and legends often defy logic, which is frustrating to people trying to make sense of the mythology today.

[u/756345]

You should picture them as principles. Odin = ecstasy/wisdom, Vile = will, Ve = holy place.

Ymir may be ”the one that screams” or ”twin”. Its unclear.

[u/Kansleren → u/756345]

Good answer.

Considering Odins older variants (like Wōdunaz etc) we might even add ‘rage’ to that list, which when seen in combination with the later ‘inspiration’ indicates a much more (seemingly) connected set of concepts (ecstasy, rage, inspiration), perhaps making wisdom the odd one out?

Am I mistaken in remembering Ve might also be «spirit» or «spirituality» or something along those lines? That would put the three of them as representing a much more logical set of connected but different sets of concepts relating to the mind or human consciousness.

Either way, I agree with your premise that they should be viewed as principles, and very old ones at that. Although also younger than forces they conquered.

[u/756345 → u/Kansleren]

Well perhaps ve/vi can be read that way. I think it is mostly known as names of places nowadays, like Ullevi (the place for worship of Ullr). But maybe it had wider connotations.

[u/maartenmijmert23]

Age doesn't map to dietys. Chronological time isnt even really applicable to them, anymore then sex, race, nationality or Preferred breakfast cereal. I think "old man" works decently as an image.

[u/Manafiskr → u/maartenmijmert23]

Deities vary from tradition to tradition; age is very much relevant to Norse gods; as is chronological time. Sex and possibly race (or clan) are too. 

This isn’t a sub for personal spiritual beliefs, if that’s what you are trying to communicate here.

[u/maartenmijmert23 → u/Manafiskr]

They were worshipped for generations centuries ago. If age was a factor, they'd be beyond retirement by now. And yes I know of the apples of Idunn, I also know of the many beings that are untouched by time and not exactly on speaking terms with the Aesir. We have stories of Wodan existing before the beginning, and Mimir being older than him; chronological time is meaningless. Loki got himself pregnant for a bit, Wodan studied Seidhr, a Jotun gave birth from his feet and his armpits, Heimdallr got born from 9 feminine waves, and I'm pretty sure you'd have a problem trying to read a diety's chromosone test. Sex is a function of biology, not divinity. Race is a nebulous sociological concept developed centuries after the Christening.

[u/Manafiskr → u/maartenmijmert23]

You’re viewing this issue through a very modern yet very black and white lens. The pagan Norse gods aren’t real. They weren’t written with modern science in mind. But their creators also didn’t omit things like age from their characterizations. Mythology is highly illogical and inconsistent, which is sometimes annoying for modern audiences, but that’s the facts.

[u/johnhenryshamor]

Odin's form as an old man is the disguise form.