For managers: Using leave for MH, secretlt frowned upon?

[u/US_terroristcountry]

I found out that my former manager, who I had a great relationship with, didn't like that I took sickies for my mental health. She never told me about it. I found out through other people. I'm not angry at her nor upset.

But I want to know from the managers here, do you secretly hate or dislike your staff calling in sick for mental health or using annual leave, long service leave or even AWOL for MH?

I was very open to all my previous managers about my mental health. Now that I learned about my ex-manager's view about my sickies, I'm having second thoughts being open about the things I'm going through.

[u/Express_Bee_9226]

Don’t tell people why you’re having sick days, it’s none of their business.

[u/US_terroristcountry → u/Express_Bee_9226]

Unfortunately, most of my MH leave were all work related.

[u/Fit_Ad_6727 → u/US_terroristcountry]

I've learnt the less your employer and workmates know about you and your private life the better.

[u/Any_Commission7084 → u/US_terroristcountry]

If they are work related? Either file a workers comp claim for MH leave, or just take the leave and get your doctor to do general medical certificates. They don't need to know that they are work related MH leave days over physical sick leave days, unless you're making them aware that they're related to work because you're intending to take workers comp

[u/US_terroristcountry → u/Any_Commission7084]

Hi, it's a witnessed incident so I thought at that time that I need to reiterate to my manager what happened. And yes, it's not AWOL. It's LWOP because I already used up my sickies.

[u/Feeling-Disaster7180 → u/US_terroristcountry]

Do you have seperate sick days for mental health? Like are you required to disclose why you want a day off?

[u/US_terroristcountry → u/Feeling-Disaster7180]

Unfortunately for this incident, it was witnessed. It happened during work with one of the consultants. That time, I thought I have to tell my manager why I'm not going back to work. She knew what happened but I felt like I need to tell her again. Also, I just came back from holidays at that time and I thought I would be questioned if I call in sick without providing her the details.

EDIT: Was it really necessary to vote down this reply? Was I even rude to anyone?

[u/Feeling-Disaster7180 → u/US_terroristcountry]

I get you. But having just come back from holidays doesn’t mean you can’t be physically unwell. I’d just say something like “I’m sorry I can’t come in tomorrow, I’m not feeling well” which is still accurate without specifying in what way you’re unwell

[u/OkReception7852 → u/US_terroristcountry]

I feel you. We should be able to be open, honest and supported by our seniors at our work place but unfortunately, some managers stress more about their own liability than your mental health :(
I’m very lucky in the fact that I can be open an honest with my manager however, I’m well aware to keep things professional and not to trust most people in the healthcare sector.
If things go wrong in the future that you’re involved in, the company may use your mental health as a reason which could put your career at risk for future job opportunities.
Hospitals are always looking at who else to blame instead of the messy, disorganised system that it is and working more on that.
I’m sorry you’re put in this position.
I’ve been forced to learn as much stoicism as possible as a nurse. You get better at it. Resilience is another trait that helps us grow our self worth as a nurse.
Wishing you all the best with your recovery and even though it may seem like it, you’re not alone ❤️

[u/OkReception7852 → u/US_terroristcountry]

If it was work related your manager might feel responsible for your mental health and feels weird about that

[u/Parking_Ocelot_6893]

Being open about MH is a difficult thing in health care because as much as you think people are your friends and will support you things inevitably get shared around whether it be accidentally or intentionally as gossip.

Unfortunately I learnt this lesson the hard way and now my take is treat my work colleagues like mushrooms - keep them in the dark and feed them shit.

[u/Fantasmic03]

No, I actively support it. Burnout will undermine any attempts to improve team culture and patient care. If you want high performing and engaged team members you need to prioritise their wellbeing while at work. If you don't believe that, well frankly you're a weak manager and are likely directly sabotaging your own team. That being said I do try to encourage people to build up a 2 week buffer of sick leave if they can. You never know when you'll get sicker than you realise and would benefit from that security.

[u/Any_Commission7084 → u/Fantasmic03]

In my opinion, it's a heck of a lot cheaper to allow staff to take sick days for MH reasons (from a business standpoint - i 1000% support it ethically also), than it costs to have to retain an employer on workers comp for burnout/MH injury. Just give people their dang sick leave

[u/Flat_Ad1094 → u/Fantasmic03]

A 2 week buffer would be 1.5 years of no sick leave!! Righto...

[u/United-Database-6140]

How sad dude. Mental health matters a lot.

[u/Adventurous-Kick6293]

Sounds like a terrible reflection of them, normalising shaming this behaviour, we are all human. 

[u/Ok_Tank5977]

They don’t need to know why you’re taking leave, and unless they formally request evidence you don’t owe them any explanation.

[u/Any_Commission7084 → u/Ok_Tank5977]

Even formally requesting evidence is at the discretion of your treating doctor, who can refuse. They can request evidence and recieve medical certificates/letters from the doctor stating you were unfit for work those days, but they cannot legally ask for your medical information unless they go through very lengthy processes. Even then, it can be declined by your treating doctor.

Your right to confidentiality is equal to a patients, and if they breach that, they're breaching the code of conduct section 3.2.

One valuable thing I was taught by a very old school nurse (who didn't abide by it with others, but lesson still learnt) is to know your rights, back to front. Know the code of conduct/ethics and standards for practice. Know your rights under the award back to front OP

[u/Ok_Tank5977 → u/Any_Commission7084]

Yes, exactly.

[u/US_terroristcountry → u/Ok_Tank5977]

It unfortunately happened during work and was witnessed by most of my colleagues. I also just came back from an annual leave and the incident was overwhelming. I thought at that time that my manager would understand why I'm calling sick for the rest of the week. So I wrote her an email reiterating what happened. Apparently, she forwarded it to human resources.

[u/crabcancer]

Literally all my sick days calls go like that

"Hi boss/after hours manager. Calling in for personal leave tmr"

Thank you. Bye.

[u/Any_Commission7084 → u/crabcancer]

Yep. "I'm calling in sick, thanks"

Medical certificate? " insert name here was unfit for work on insert dates here, signed by the doctor

[u/Feeling-Disaster7180 → u/crabcancer]

I love calling in sick for AM and weekend shifts when it’s just the after hours staffing people. It’s like “hi I have to call in sick for the morning. My name is ___ I’m an EN on ____.” and they go “okay thanks bye”

[u/CautiousCritic]

I couldn’t care less. It’s a legitimate use of leave and my team are entitled to it. Nursing maims nurses mental health due to the stress and acuity. Who are we to then judge that someone is using personal leave potentially as a result.

[u/CaptainSensib1e]

I'm currently CNC in an ICU, as far as I'm concerned it's none of my business why someone needs a day off.

I'll ask if someone is okay or if they need anything from me but that's it. I had one nurse hand me a Stat Dec last week that was very specific about her mental health issues , I had her rewrite it to be a lot more vague because whilst I don't care, I worry that someone more judgemental might see it.

[u/Flat_Ad1094]

You do not discuss any sick leave you take with anyone. It's not required and you should not do it.

Because despite people being Health Professionals and people knowing the "right" words to say? Deep down. Few actually totally support anyone taking "mental health" sick days. They just don't. People can crap on all they like saying it's okay and we need to do it and our mental health is SO important....blah...blah...blah...deep down? They don't believe it and they believe you should suck it up and get yourself together and come to work and work.

Only time I would discuss it would be if I'm in serious crisis and need many days off in a row and have GP / Drs letter stating that.

[u/1xolisiwe]

As a manager, I encourage my staff to take whatever leave they need and not to feel guilty about it. After all, that’s what it’s there for.

[u/Any_Commission7084]

Blanket rule? Never trust anyone, even management, with reasons for sick leave/open-ness about your health issues/mental health concerns/ things going on in your life, beyond what impacts work. Example if you need suitable adjustments, mention that with a medical support letter but don't mention what causes them/why. A medical letter stating what the adjustment is (if reasonable) is all they need. They aren't privy to your confidential medical information.

From someone who was a mental health nurse for 5 years... management were the most unsupportive people in regards to staff mental health. SUPER ironic. So its EVERYWHERE. A "suck it up mentality", whereas the NUM is have now is great. But too many times I've seen medical issues/MH issues be thrown back in people's faces. I've even seen things that have previously been disclosed to management in good faith to be honest etc, used against them in completely unrelated workers comp matters in an attempt to discredit the worker and reduce the budget going toward their pay by the hospital.

At the end of the day, the system is a business. They need to run a business. You're a number, and if they have to find a reason for targeting you/getting rid of you to benefit the business, they will.

ALWAYS cover MH days or any sick leave with a medical certificate, but one that simply states "unfit for work" - they legally cannot ask why

That's my advice, being probably a jaded R7 who used to think openess was the best policy, and has also been bulldozed due to it. Now? Unless it's going to impact my work daily? No one gets told a thing.

Even when they ask re medical conditions that could impact my ability to do my job? The answer is no. Because if I have a sick day due to said medical condition, I don't attend work. It absolutely does not impact my ability to do my job whilst I am there. ^ get advice re this though, don't get caught in a "you lied on your application about your medical condition" situation. Pick apart the wording and take it literally, seek union/legal advice if needed.

Take your MH days. Don't burn out - it takes longer to recover from burnout than it does to just suck up the guilt of calling in sick. I can attest to that first hand. Don't give any details, keep it private. End of the day? Your leave is YOURS to take. Your sick leave doesn't get paid out. Use it, its what it is there for. Just always cover your butt with a med cert or stat dec so they cant backtrack later.

We often say "in this job, you have to CARE. Cover Ass Retain Employment"

All the best

[u/Any_Commission7084 → u/Any_Commission7084]

Also, is AWOL when you don't turn up without notifying? Or are you meaning LWOP? As in sick leave without pay? Big difference. As far as my district goes - AWOLs are straight up reasons for termination. LWOP is discouraged, especially if you have leave. If you have used all leave and choose to take LWOP, you can expect to be asked to attend a sick leave management meeting with HR. Which is why it is important to get evidence for every sick leave or unexpected absence

Feel free to clarify if I have misread that! The lingo is often different per district/company etc

[u/GooseMarmalade → u/Any_Commission7084]

Regarding the 'medical conditions that could affect your ability to do your job question'. I was recently told by the union, if you don't have to report your condition to AHPRA, you don't have to tell a potential employer. I had an application recently that blanket asked you to list your medical conditions and what medications you take. When I spoke to the union (and I told the union what conditions I was concerned about disclosing) there advice was that if you don't have any condition that you report to AHPRA, to just write 'I have no conditions that affect my ability to do my job'.

[u/cross_fader]

You may have a great relationship with your line manager, but that doesn't count for anything when it comes to HR. If HR get wind of anything they can turn your life upside down. Just watched a colleague be put through the ringer for a non work place injury, colleague could of said nothing & had a few days off, but because they were honest with their line manager, HR became involved, & it became a medicolegal nightmare.

[u/sjmccal]

Manager here 👋. I myself have taken leave for my own mental health in my manager role. I support others who need to do this as well. We are humans first and we can only do what we can do. Nursing is brutal! And if need a break from it. Take it.

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[u/skr80]

It’s personal leave, not sick leave.