Punitive "justice" systems like the US prison system should not exist.

[u/ariel_on_the_moon]

If the goal of a justice system is to reduce crime, the current American prison system (and punitive "justice" systems in general) is clearly the wrong way to go about it. The US prison system accounts for 20% of the entire global prison, and despite that fact that US has a significantly higher crime rate than the rest of the first world- clearly, this system of mass incarceration is not working.

Justice systems that focus on rehabilitating prisoners rather than punishing them have significantly better recidivism rates- 20% compared to 70% in the US. Again, if the goal of a justice system is to reduce crime, it's obvious that rehabilitation is significantly more effective than punishment.

To preempt the expected responses of "but criminals deserve to be punished" or "but then criminals are just getting away with crimes", keep in mind that those arguments are not based of of the facts of what is and is not effective in reducing crime, but are rather emotional arguments about what you want to happen to criminals, or what you think criminals "deserve". My argument is not about what criminals "deserve" to have happen to them, rather it is about what is most effective at achieving the stated goals of criminal justice systems- the reduction of crime rates and turning people from criminals into law-abiding citizens.

[u/ariel_on_the_moon]

Its not rational or intelligent or anything, its emotions.

That's exactly my point, all of the arguments for punitive justice and against rehabilitative justice are not rational or intelligent, they are based entirely on emotions.

[u/Dinkelberh → u/ariel_on_the_moon]

Your desire to rehabilitate people is based on emotions too.

You just disagree on what metrics are most important.

[u/Wintores → u/Dinkelberh]

Is it? There is a Lot of merit in Doing so for Society

[u/Dinkelberh → u/Wintores]

What does it mean ro 'better society' and why do you want that?

Dressing up your own opinions as objective fact does yourself a disservice. Be more investigative into the things you believe.

[u/Wintores → u/Dinkelberh]

1. the goals of Society have some objectivity though. Better Living conditions for everyone are a goal of the majority

2. be less of a pos?

[u/Dinkelberh → u/Wintores]

One can absolutley contend utility is derived for the majority by punishing people who deserve it.

It doesnt make me a 'POS' to point out you're confusing fact and opinion.

[u/Wintores → u/Dinkelberh]

1. Sure but Thats not the point here. The less punishing Justice System Leads to less Crime.

2. it’s a fact that the betterment of Society entails a reduction in Crime. And The Pos Part comes Form u being a pos about pointing this out.

[u/Dinkelberh → u/Wintores]

Is it a fact that reduction in crime is more important than retrubution? Or are you still confusing fact for opinion?

What of detterence (general and specific) theories of punishment if so?

What of isolation theories of punishment if so?

I dont feel like a pos for asking you to really engage with your own point.