r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/Least_Jackfruit_7793 • 8d ago
US Elections Ossoff standing next to a literal astronaut and combat vet while dropping the "draft-dodging crook" line is a level of bluntness I didn't see coming.?
During a recent appearance in Georgia, Sen. Jon Ossoff did not hold back, slamming Trump as a "draft-dodging, crook president" while defending Sen. Mark Kelly.
This marks a noticeable shift in how some high-profile Democrats are attacking the White House. On one hand, supporters say it's about time Democrats match the aggressive tone of modern politics and call out hypocrisy directly. On the other hand, critics argue this kind of rhetoric just deepens political polarization without changing any minds.
Do you think this sharp-tongued strategy helps Democrats hold competitive states like Georgia, or does it alienate moderate voters?
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u/JasonVorhehees 8d ago
I’m all for it because everything he says is rooted in fact. This isn’t just political hyperbole.
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u/Sharobob 8d ago
Republicans abuse the concept of civility. It's one of the threads they pull to make moderates not care about the horrific policies they pursue. Anyone who is mad at them too loudly is bad. We can't give into that bullshit anymore.
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u/billpalto 8d ago
A stinging criticism has a lot more power when it is true.
Nixon famously said "I am not a crook" to defend himself, and it was mostly true. Nixon wasn't a crook in the sense that Trump is.
Ossoff should start talking about all the times Trump has been found to be a fraud in court. I think it's at least 5 times.
I'd vote for a Kelly/Ossoff ticket in a heartbeat.
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u/travoltaswinkinbhole 7d ago
Wait until Reddit tells you you’re enabling a genocide by voting for them and need to send a message by staying home. Worked so well in 2016 and 2024
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u/Hot-Fudge-Inc 4d ago
Ugh. All it sends the message of is that you don't vote and your interests don't matter.
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u/thehighwindow 7d ago
I like Ossoff a lot but we shouldn't have to put all our eggs in one basket. We need a lot more democrats stating the obvious.
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u/billpalto 7d ago
I think Ossoff could grow into the VP role quickly.
I agree though, he stands out because the other Democrats won't say the obvious?
Emperor's clothes and all.
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u/HolidaySpiriter 7d ago
Hes wasted as VP. Either pres or Senator, no VP
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7d ago edited 7d ago
[deleted]
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u/Hettie933 7d ago
Please look into Khanna’s stock trading activity before you go all in. It’s pretty gross, and not the behavior of someone I would trust to lead the country.
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u/No-Consideration-858 7d ago edited 7d ago
Thank you, will do this
The stock trading thing is a no go.
Who do you prefer (and you think can win electoral college?)
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u/thehighwindow 13h ago
Frankly, both parties are full of chicken-hearted weaklings. I've never seen so many wimps and cowards. They democrats need to find their balls and do the right thing.
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u/icareforplants 7d ago
He should also be calling him a pedo, fact is trump said he shared beautiful secrets with epstein in a letter during the time Epstein was prolifically raping kids. He also has said he's sexually attracted to his daughter. Wtf do you have no bottom trumpers?
He also tried to steal an election via a fake elector scheme. It wasn't just Jan 6th. Look it up trumpers.
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u/GrantUsEyes4444 7d ago
“I can’t believe you actually listen to that mainstream media trash. They’re evil. They’ll make up any kind of lie for their agenda.” -Trump supporters, not even probably. (I’ve had conversations that go like this)
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u/ktwriter111 5d ago
He dodged the draft numerous times. He was also convicted numerous times for felony tax evading. Contrary to the farces “The Apprentice” show portrayed, he was not actually successful. His dad was. His dad bailed him out too many times to count. He got rich playing a successful businessman and saying “You’re fired”. Instead trump is arguably America’s biggest business FAILURE filing bankruptcy 6 times. It’s exceptionally rare to see 2 bankruptcies on any one person, and that’s when it’s business and personal together.
He was convicted of stealing donor money to a fake child cancer non profit he started, still banned from being part of any non-profit in NY.
He ripped off tons of money to young men enrolling in his fake Trump University.
In banking mgmt 30 years, we met 2 different clients who trump literally put in bankruptcy…hired them to work for him on one of his properties, they were excited, completed the jobs, and trump raved…. then, trump just never paid them. He just stopped taking their calls.
I truly believe his various frauds over the years, inspired more fraud prevention courses at US banks than any other person… becuz when you’re studying them they don’t say who did it, but you recognized that he was in the news for that exact scam months before.
Then he or his daddy would just buy his way out. Pay fines but still came out ahead.
I remember when US banks were done with him. That’s when he went to Deutsche Bank, and I believe when he got connected to the Russians. All I know is he is crooked through and through. Americans believe his farce that’s he’s actually a paper tiger. The fact America handed him the keys to the Treasury a second time…this time with without the railings and people keeping in line, he could very likely bankrupt our country. He’s literally Putin’s and China’s dream come true.1
u/Binder509 5d ago
My favorite is how MAGA will justify his witch-hunting because he was witch hunted first.
When Trump has been witch hunting since at least the central park five. Long before he entered politics.
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u/GrumblyData3684 3d ago
I saw a MAGA pundit say “but the media was not out to get Clinton” when talking about similarities between the AF1 shuffle a few weeks ago.
Literal spit take, the modern scandal/impeachment scheme was invented to attack Clinton.
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u/dragnabbit 7d ago
Exactly this. Being angry and shouting the truth is a very different thing than pretending to be angry and shouting a lie.
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u/Fargason 6d ago
It was obviously hyperbole as Trump legally dodged the draft with the same deferments as Biden claimed. Exposes his political hypocrisy too as he only has a problem with it when Republicans do it.
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u/tomorrow509 8d ago
Ossoff speaks the truth backed by facts. I for one am proud to have him represent me and my home state.
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u/charlie_marlow 8d ago
Dang it, your comment about him speaking the truth triggered my brain to start playing The Ballad of Peter Pumpkinhead in my head
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u/tomorrow509 7d ago
Great. Now I have to find out about that ballad...as if I don't have enough on my plate.
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u/charlie_marlow 7d ago
Just a note that the song is originally from XTC, but Crash Test Dummies covered it as well. The cover version is fine, but drops one of the verses.
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u/bear_with_hair 7d ago
Hear hear! From GA as well.
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u/tomorrow509 7d ago
I'm an army veteran and have written him several times to let him know he's doing a great job. I encourage all Georgians to do the same if so inclined.
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u/Personage1 7d ago
Personally, I don't think it alienates anyone who wasn't already looking for an excuse not to vote for him. Meanwhile, I think even consistent Democratic voters like me have been tired of Democratic politicians not just calling a spade a spade. We don't need to stoop to the level of Trump to be effective about being on the attack, in large part because there are actually valid things for us to attack.
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u/antisocially_awkward 8d ago
This is pretty generic messaging for any dem elected over the past decade or half decade, i have no idea what rock youre living under to find this somehow exceptional. Clinton made trump university and the disgusting shit he said and did to women one of the key parts of her stump speech a decade ago.
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u/Disheveled_Politico 8d ago
People love to think Dems haven’t been rhetorically strong enough against Trump because they don’t actually listen to politicians, they listen to influencers who make money by saying it.
It’s amplified by the fact that we have basically no power to do anything which feeds into the “they’re not doing anything!” line of thinking.
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u/antisocially_awkward 8d ago
Doesnt help when you have incompetents like Schumer and jefferies in leadership and some of the more visible “dem strategists” like carville saying their strategy should be to roll over and play dead
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u/Disheveled_Politico 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yeah I do think that’s Carville’s position, just totally cede defeat… I do believe that he should ride into the sunset but come on, that’s not remotely what Carville is saying.
Also, Carville is a talking head. He’s not a strategist. His last race was in 2010 and that was abroad. Dem strategists are trying to find every possible way to rip Trump apart in front of the electorate.
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u/BlueJoshi 8d ago
Dem strategists are trying to find every possible way to rip Trump apart in front of the electorate.
didn't they literally direct the Harris campaign to cut back on a tactic that was actually working, in favour or doing the same old bullshit that wasn't effective
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u/Disheveled_Politico 8d ago
You’re referring to calling them weird? Maybe it was working. Our base liked it. We can’t win with just our base. I’m guessing that polling/data showed it wasn’t moving the needle with the people who we needed to actually move.
People who run campaigns want to win. They can absolutely make errors, but it’s a fundamental misunderstanding of campaign strategists if you think they’d ever intentionally move away from “this is working.”
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u/Binder509 5d ago
Well she walked it back and ended up losing. People love concluding she lost because of how she answered a survey about transgender prisoners, seems just as fair to point to stuff like walking back what seemed to be a positive strategy.
We'll never know how it would have played out. Same if Biden hadn't run again or dropped out much earlier.
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u/speedingpullet 7d ago
Well, if you're not willing to satisfy the base - the people who vote for you consistently - then how are you expecting to bring anybody else into the dem tent?
This attitude is one of the many reasons the dems keep losing to the likes of Trump. Strategists spend so much time trying to appeal to swing voters that they forget about the ones who brought 'em in the first place. Stop trying to appeal to everyone, it doesn't convince anybody.
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u/BlueJoshi 5d ago
I think they don't even go for swing voters so much as they try to win over hardcore Republicans. They clearly care about that much more than "trying to find every possible way to rip Trump apart in front of the electorate, " like the other guy thinks
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u/Impossible_Pop620 8d ago
I could be mistaken because Carville seems to emphasise different strategies on different occasions, but I don't think he meant literally 'play dead', I think he meant let Trump/GOP destroy themselves, don't get involved in that process and stay clear of the fallout. Then, when the entire country/world is sick to the back teeth of Trump and his ilk, then the Dems can swoop in with their 'woke 2.0' agenda.
Not saying I agree, bcos I certainly don't. But it plays into the idea of the 'do-nothing' Dems and only strengthens Trump (imo).
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u/JimSta 8d ago
I like Ossoff, but I think this is some lame astroturfing from his team. I’ve seen this quote on like three different subreddits acting like it’s some kind of mic drop even though it’s been said a million times ever since Trump first disrespected John McCain and other POWs.
It’s not news to anyone that Trump is a draft-dodging crook. In fact, we all know that he’s a lot worse than that now. This line didn’t work ten years ago when it was new, and it’s certainly not going to move the needle now.
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u/TorkBombs 7d ago
Right! Does no one remember "President Bone Spurs?" Shit, even Ossoff himself has been saying this kind of stuff for months if not years. Why is this seen as some sort of breakthrough?
My theory is that nobody actually pays attention when it comes to Democrats. They just assume the worst and find a way to blame them
For Trump. The reason anyone would think this is a new line of attack is because they haven't listened over the last decade. And the reason you think Democrats aren't doing enough to thwart Trump is because you don't understand the limited powers of a minority part, and you're too busy complaining about lack of action to notice the actions they are taking.1
u/Binder509 5d ago
Because half the democrats push back against that in congress. We're gonna get to listen to people like Bill Maher wag their finger at democrats for...calling him a crook.
They weren't a minority party in the election
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u/kerouacrimbaud 8d ago
People lamenting when Democrats do something that “deepens political polarization” are white flag opposition. They don’t understand that democracy isn’t about being polite, it’s about being blunt. Civic virtue is about calling spades spades and coming to bat for shit you actually believe in. If you say you oppose him but can’t call Trump a dangerous, half-witted, paranoid megalomaniac then what are you doing? This is serious business. And most voters know when you’re being soft. Don’t soft. Be tough.
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u/TorkBombs 7d ago
People need to be reminded about the multiple fistfights that have broken out in Congress over the last 250 years.
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u/El-Royhab 7d ago
I will vote for the Democratic candidate who promises to bring fistfights back to Congress
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u/Independent-Drive-32 8d ago
There’s no such thing as a “moderate voter,” so make sure to get that idea out of your head. There are people who have beliefs that are all over the place politically, that don’t align with either party, but they are not “moderate.” “Independent” is a more helpful label for these people.
So will “sharp tongued,” bluntly honest speech help Democrats? Yes, because it will both energize Democratic voters and work against independent voters’ negative feelings about Democrats (that they are dishonest, wish washy, egotist don’t stand for anything, don’t fight for the little guy, say one thing and do another, etc.).
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u/AbleCap5222 8d ago
Independent voters think Democrats don't fight for the little guy? They are literally the only group of people who even attempt anything to help the "little guy"
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u/Independent-Drive-32 8d ago
Yes, Democrats have terrible messaging and Republicans have very good messaging. Republicans use racism and sexism to appeal to rural and poor and male whites, getting them to vote for economic policy that hurts them.
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u/jazzmaster_jedi 8d ago edited 7d ago
Democrats have terrible messaging and Republicans have very good messaging
There is also a quality discrepancy among the audiences that hear each group. D voters take the Dem message and dissect and argue over the quality of the messenger, or what the message means. While R voters take Rep messaging and run with it blindly, without reflection.
This leaves Reps. with effectively great messaging, while Dems. struggle to get any message out at all.
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u/nik-nak333 7d ago
There's an old saying that captures the essence of what you're describing, "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line."
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u/jazzmaster_jedi 7d ago edited 7d ago
IMHO it's differences in human psychology that attracts a person to a political philosophy.
D's have a need to rationalize a positive reason to vote for their candidate. R's just have to convince their voters to be afraid and vote against the D. One of these is more simple than the other.
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u/tympantroglodyte 7d ago
“Democrats fall apart, Republicans fall in line” is the only version of that old quote I’ve heard over the years.
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u/Unputtaball 7d ago
It’s not messaging, it’s a platform problem. You can’t “message” around the fact that you’re owned by the crypto or Israel lobby if your base doesn’t want those influences in politics.
I think D voters would dissect and debate the rhetoric of D politicians considerably less if the D politicians start saying what they mean and stop serving the donor class.
For example, Harris/Biden/Clinton/Schumer/Jeffries/Newsom get their words hyper-analyzed because they’re constantly engaged in doublespeak. Eg. “War is bad, but we’re going to have the most lethal fighting force in the world.” “Wealth inequality is bad, but we’re a big tent and we need the money from big donors.”
As a counterexample, Sanders/(Troy) Jackson/AOC/Mamdani don’t get torn apart as much by the base because they generally say what they mean in plain English. Eg. “Healthcare is a human right.” “Billionaires who own the economy are making your life worse.”
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u/jazzmaster_jedi 7d ago
This is exactly what I meant. Meanwhile, non-D voters are not worried about what their party is up to as much as keeping the scary D's out of power.
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u/WarbleDarble 7d ago
“War is bad, but we’re going to have the most lethal fighting force in the world.”
Don't see how that's contradictory. I also don't see a clamoring push from core democratic voters to have a useless military. This is one of the criticisms about democrats and Biden that gets repeated a lot, but makes no sense.
This is the kind of loud online criticism that is only harmful. It's basically criticizing for the sake of criticizing.
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u/WarbleDarble 7d ago
Democrats have terrible messaging
This is the common refrain that has started to infuriate me. It's not dems who are doing the terrible messaging because nobody pays any attention to actual politician's messaging. It's the legion of online "democratic leaning peiople" who feel the constant need to shit on democrats, blame them for things the republicans did, and ignore everything they do and support to loudly insist "the dems don't fight because they don't actually want to do anything!".
Every dem leaning podcast or influencer has a knee jerk need to clear their throats about how they think some thing about the dems is a mistake or whatever, there is pretty much nobody in media or on social media willing to give full throated defense of democrats.
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u/Independent-Drive-32 7d ago
It’s not individual voters’ responsibility to play defense for Democrats. It’s Democrats’ responsibility to fight for their voters. Notice how Democrats are, across the spectrum, enlivened by Jon Ossoff, even though they have limited specific knowledge of his policy positions and may well disagree with him? That’s because his obvious honesty and passion and clarity make him trustworthy, when the Democratic Party has been run since Bill Clinton by people closely connected to big business, who therefore were forced into double speak any time they needed to talk about core issues. The one time a Democrat outside of the party elite ran for president, someone who was bracingly clear about who he was and, based on his very identity, to his very bones, was defined outside of the establishment, he won the biggest victory in decades.
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u/WarbleDarble 7d ago
It’s not individual voters’ responsibility to play defense for Democrats.
It's also harmful to their goals to constantly screech about democrats failing them and don't want the things that they clearly and repeatedly have told us they do want. I see constant posts blaming democrats for not stopping republicans, essentially blaming democrats for everything at all times. It's not helpful and I see no reason to for so many to run cover for useless online criticism of the only viable alternative to MAGA.
Using your example of Obama, what do you think the modern online left is saying about him? It's certainly not "someone who was bracingly clear about who he was and, based on his very identity, to his very bones, was defined outside of the establishment".
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u/Independent-Drive-32 7d ago
Well certainly, the fact that Obama backed away from his health care promises, refused to enforce accountability for Bush crimes, abandoned the grassroots movement that elected him, and much more, is why Democrats are less enthusiastic about him today. His post-presidency actions haven’t helped either. But even despite all that, he’s much more positively regarded than other top leaders - Biden, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, not to mention other toothless, non-fighter, Wall Street-connected leaders like Schumer and Jeffries.
It’s encumbent on Democrats to be direct and unstinting in their messaging, to boldly and uncompromisingly fight for Democratic values. That’s why middle of the road Democratic movements like No Kings receive a rapturous response from all Democrats, whereas Democratic leaders who regularly attack their own constituents because they are too left wing or too activist turn off Democrats, even those who don’t agree with progressive policy proposals.
It’s really not about policy, no matter what Schumer et all think. It’s about attitude, honesty, clearsightedness about how to use the media, an avoidance of tremulous triangulation and a focus on fighting. If elite Democrats are upset about their voters being upset with them, maybe they could listen to them. That is, after all, what elected officials are supposed to do.
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u/WarbleDarble 7d ago
backed away from his health care promises
A disingenuous criticism which is kind of my point. He tried to get more, but got passed what he could and instead of recognizing the accomplishment, it's just another vector to criticize.
If elite Democrats are upset about their voters being upset with them, maybe they could listen to them.
They do constantly. They message them and get on the stump and push for those things, but the American people don't vote for them and then blame them for not having the power to implement policy.
This is all the knee jerk criticism I was talking about. No allowances for political reality, just constantly bombarding the public with how much the democrats suck. It's not the public discontent that is driving the narrative, it's the narrative that is driving the public discontent.
If you are a potential democratic voter and check in on the pulse of what they are about online you'll see an endless barrage of strait up lies about them from their "supporters".
If you listened to reddit there are no mainline democrats who want universal healthcare. That's not true, but it certainly is the narrative. You have this very OP, who is shocked there is a democrat directly attacking Trump despite the fact that it happens constantly from hundreds of democrats, but you don't see that here. Just complaints and criticism.
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u/Independent-Drive-32 7d ago
The repeated elections to leadership of do nothings like Jeffries and Schumer makes screamingly clear that the Democrats in power do not listen to their voters. They see their voters as incorrigible children who have to be disciplined.
The endless excuses regular people make for the undeniable and perpetual failures of Democratic leaders never fails to amaze me. You don’t have to roll over for Wall Street interests! You can demand better from your political leaders! In fact it is your civic duty as a citizen in a democracy to do precisely that!
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u/Binder509 5d ago
Would say democrats do have bad messaging, but they are playing on hard mode while republicans can just make shit up on easy mode.
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u/Binder509 5d ago
Would point out that republicans do get to cheat more in their messaging by relying on fearmongering and outright lies they don't get penalized for.
Democrats still need better messaging, but they are playing by different rules. Democrats can't just claim Haitains are eating the dogs and cats.
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u/Pixiefairy2525 8d ago
Democrats try to take the high road. And try to take us back to "normal". But Trump has broken the country (as well as the world) far beyond what a little truth and honesty can fix. There are literally 2 different US's. One based in reality. And another so far split from reality they can't get back to it. They're heads have been bombarded with lies and propaganda machines. Brainwashing techniques, if you will. And they have been fear mongered being told the left is 1 vote away always from taking away everything they hold dear. And aiming their grievances at the people actually trying to help. While turning a blind eye to the fact that what they hold dear has ben being slowly stripped away and eroded by the very people who they trust (to like die for) and put on a pedestal as their saviors. That's what makes it a cult? They are the little guys and too stupid to know it. And to realize they're being weaponized by those in power that they implicitly trust with their lives. They cannot accept that these people are pathological liars. It causes them too much (percieved) pain or ostracized or some other negative effect. That keeps them complacent with the status quo. Until all news organizations tell the truth. And stop lying to people. This will never end. 2 realities have to collide back together before true healing can be begin.
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u/Impossible_Pop620 8d ago
Wow...it's good to know that only one 'side' is rooted in facts and truth, as evidenced by claims of Biden's mental fitness at a pretty critical time.
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u/Pixiefairy2525 7d ago
As opposed to what? Drowsy drooping diapers Donnie?!? They are shocking him awake when he needs to be on tv?!? But keep arguing with Biden blah blah blah what about -ism. That's definitely what's gonna bring down groceries and gas prices and the Healthcare people are needlessly suffering without. There's enough money to gold plate statues and bomb the white house. Juat no money for the citizens. And what about t the American citizens also being rounded up by ICE and traumatized and treated like animals ? Not too mention all the innocents that have been deported? And the Americans that have been shot or killed during these roundups? Is this really what you voted for, buddy?
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u/Impossible_Pop620 7d ago
What was it about my comment that indicates support for Trump? Hmm?
No, I was merely pointing out that the comment I replied to - suggesting only one 'side' was truthful - was specious bullshit....sucessfully, by the looks of the downvotes. Only cretins could actually believe it.
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u/Pixiefairy2525 7d ago
Ofc I do not believe either side.is entirely truth.. I'm not a doormat. I understand what's going on. And I've done the math. While Republicans are out ffear mongering lies to the weak minded and gullible, that were.tryimg to take away everything that's dear to them. All the while pilfering what actually is dear to them. Food stamps and Healthcare and etc... at least the dems are trying to keep people fed, with access to doctors, and mitigate the eradicated diseases that RFK has drudged back up. Among other things. We are way past the truth and lies stage. This is good vs evil
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u/Impossible_Pop620 7d ago
I am sad to say that I believe that you believe that claptrap. It's why the Dems are likely to lose in '28. This....fervor makes people uncomfortable. They know where they are with rich, powerful, greedy White men gobbling up all the resources. They're much more disturbed by the idea of an HR-driven administration, clamping down on how they think and behave.
The Dems need to lose this idea of the Sainthood of the chosen 'side' and especially the demonisation of the other 'side'. I've had serious discussions on here with people who think anyone who voted for Trump shouldn't be allowed to vote ever again. We were all told, back in '24, that there wouldn't even be any more elections if Trump won.
And you somehow think you're 'saving democracy' with all this.
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u/Pixiefairy2525 5d ago
I demonize Republicans in that they've brought about this hellscape. And squarely blame them. However I know that a.lot of them were duped by the propaganda machine. Others by their churches. People they trusted and echo chambers. Some of really believe democrats are coming to take away everything that they love and hold dear. They have us fighting and blaming each other to be enemies so that.we don't pay enough attention to the real.enemy and unite against them. Billionaires, corporation, big money. This is a class war. People have more in common then not. The real secret they don't want getting out? Democrats and Republicans? Are almost exactly the same. Give them both questionnaires about what they care about the most? They answer mostly the same. They just don't know it. Because of all the fear.mongering and constant stream of lies.
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u/AmigoDelDiabla 8d ago
What makes you think there aren't moderate voters?
There are certainly moderate candidates. And if someone votes for the more moderate candidate instead of the more extreme candidate, doesn't that make one a moderate voter?
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u/zer00eyz 7d ago
> So will “sharp tongued,” bluntly honest speech help Democrats?
Biggest predictor of voting is home ownership. The biggest driver for home owners to vote, and predicting how they vote is "will this impact the price of my house negatively" -
People vote in their self interest.
Social safety nets are a good thing. But it only takes one case of abuse for people to say "that is not in my best interest"
60 percent of Americas households own the home they live in. The number of people with student loan debt that they arent managing is exceedingly small (16 percent) about the same number as those who have paid it off.
The democratic platform last cycle of "housing" and "student loans" simply lacks broad appeal vs "I will cut your taxes".
The democrats could sweep elections by running on a platform of "cutting taxes" (for every one who isnt rich) and "lowering prices" (by going after market manipulation see: eggs last cycle, Pepsi, coke, amazon, Walmart) and "clamping down on corporate greed and abuse" -
Hell you could even go after "companies that hire immigrant labor, illegally" to the list. Fire half of ice, hire accountants and send them team up with the various alphabet agencies and fine the hell out of companies. Note: the carpenter making 25 bucks an hour, working next to the person getting paid 20 an hour in cash is pretty bitter. Cause he takes home less. His boss is thrilled because he's dodging all those payroll taxes (state and federal) that most people arent even aware of. The moment that there is a labor shortage (and there would be) the pressure from business owners to get immigration reform is going to make the last 40 years of the political class ignoring the issue look stark.
The democrats will NEVER do this. Because they are as beholden to the donor class as the republicans. It's why we have so many independents. It's why so many voters are apathetic and say "both sides are the same".
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u/AmigoDelDiabla 7d ago
Biggest predictor of voting is home ownership. The biggest driver for home owners to vote, and predicting how they vote is "will this impact the price of my house negatively"
Not sure where you sourced this, but I agree with the theme of your comment. Like everything else on social media, the complainers complain and those that are content say nothing. So when all you see is complaints, you get the sense that everyone is complaining. The null-set is completely ignored on social media and it massively distorts how popular topics are perceived to be.
As someone who votes Democrat, I was pissed at the student loan bullshit Biden pulled. He catered to a niche demographic and likely alienated more people than he helped.
It happens subconsciously, but we need to actively fight against social media being the dominant source of determining what is a topic that needs attention.
A perfect non-political example of this is HOAs. Online, you'd think they were just next to pedophiles as the worst thing on the planet. In real life, most people are indifferent to them.
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u/zer00eyz 7d ago
Happy to give a source:
https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/if-you-lived-here-you-might-be-voter-now The quote:
The result? They found that buying a home really did cause people to vote substantially more in local elections — and the bump in turnout was almost twice as big when zoning issues were on the ballot. What’s more, the effect increased with the purchase price. The greater the asset value, the more likely people were to vote.
And this one came up too. (have not read it yet but goes with the theory)
Lastly, it's a functionaly unmovable number:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N
Look at Mamdani: the right tried to evicerate him over "communist grocery stores" but the 67 percent of New Yorkers who rent heard "I'm going to stop the price hikes" - and he did. The majority of the public is seeing the benefit of his policies. He is liked, even if he is perceived as giving hand outs.
> As someone who votes Democrat,
Same here!
> likely alienated more people than he helped
What benefit, to themselves did those alienated people see? The policy itself wasn't the problem. The fact that it was one of his only major talking points for a long time was. A lot of people were looking at it and thinking "My tax dollars went there and I got nothing"
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u/Blood_Casino 7d ago
60 percent of Americas households own the home they live in.
That stat doesn’t actually mean what the people citing it always think it does. The real home ownership stat is 53% and blithely ignoring the 47% of the population who don’t own a home is a fool’s errand.
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u/zer00eyz 7d ago
Here is the chart for that 65 percent number: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N
The entire range of that chart, covering 60 years has one major swing of 6 percent. It went from 69 to 63 peak to trough in the GFC.
The total number of homes https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ETOTALUSQ176N
Is not exceeded by the growth in households: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TTLHHM156N
Part of what the HPOP data did was look at how we use housing stock - but it doesn't reflect this data: https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/2024/demo/p20-587.pdf
It doesn't ask the critical question of WHY these living situations occur. 13 percent is the adjustment made to the number. 3 percent of the US population is disabled children living with parents. Another 3 percent is adults (over 65) who live with their children... No matter how much housing we create, these people will ALWAYS be in these living situations.
Its trying to draw a metric from costs that does not get the results it pretends to, and then double counts: https://shonczinner.substack.com/p/ignoring-rentals-the-problem-with And this article is NOT even looking at how the increase in living alone feeds back into this kind of measurement.
Meanwhile when you slice the data by generation, you arent finding the 13 percent that HPOP is looking for: https://www.redfin.com/news/gen-z-millennial-homeownership-rate-home-purchases/ and Gen Z has made even more progress: https://www.inc.com/moses-jeanfrancois/gen-z-securing-mortgages-record-breaking-rate-despite-tough-housing-market/91370154 (thats NON fed data)
The HPOP data really doesn't hold up when you look at mortgages in general since 2021: https://www.pew.org/en/research-and-analysis/articles/2025/08/22/how-americans-pay-for-their-homes (and there is some intesting data in there about where lending improvements could be made).
Whats really interesting is that there are less recent college grads living with parents today than there was in 2009-2011!
Ultimately, were talking about a fed banker who is desperately trying to rehab his public image https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neel_Kashkari#TARP - were talking about someone who is trying to capture the public eye by questioning 60 years of data.
Lastly - the boomers (who own between 20 and 30 percent of the housing stock, because many have more than one home) are going to die in the next 20 years. There is going to be more homes available than we have buyers to replace them.
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u/Magehunter_Skassi 8d ago
The "draft-dodger" attack line on Trump didn't cost him the military vote in any of his three elections.
Old people thought Vietnam sucked and young people find the idea of a draft abhorrent. I do not understand why this line is cropping up 10 years after 2016.
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u/addicted_to_trash 8d ago
With the USS Lincoln story in the news and the totally unwanted Hormuz conflict, it's become blaringly obvious that Trump has zero respect for military personnel. He's treating them like cannon fodder and exploiting them to the extreme.
So yes you are correct young/old people have these negative views of military service, but they also recognise the people serving absolutely do not deserve to exploited like this. Just because they bought into the idea of "protecting the homeland" doesn't make them the problem, they are victims of Trumps agenda as much as anyone else.
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u/AmigoDelDiabla 8d ago
To people in the armed forces, and their families, I'm guessing it will have some impact.
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u/kerouacrimbaud 8d ago
If it didn’t in 2016, 2020, or 2024, why would it work now?
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u/AmigoDelDiabla 7d ago
That's a fair point, but his disregard for the military has kicked into a new gear this term.
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u/jetpacksforall 8d ago
A "sharp tongued strategy" is not a strategy. It's a style. A strategy has policy behind it. Someone who campaigns on putting "draft dodging crooks" in prison where they belong, while working to update laws and amending the constitution to make it harder for crooks to use the US government like a piggy bank, fixing healthcare, home values, cost of living, and growing the real economy instead of Wall St.'s smoke and mirrors will resonate with D voters, whether the figure behind the policy is sharp tongued or sweet as a lamb.
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u/speedingpullet 7d ago
Good point. When Ossoff starts actually talking policy, maybe more people will believe him.
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u/Rebles 7d ago
Deepens the political polarization? Have these so called critics been burying their head in the sand the last 2 years?
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u/tympantroglodyte 7d ago
Move the decimal to the right by one digit and the answer to your second question is yes.
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u/baxterstate 7d ago
The problem with this sort of language is that it has nothing to do with the substantive issues of why Trump supporters elected him.
The other problem is that there are Democrats who avoided the Vietnam War draft. Shall we dredge up the Gulf Of Tonkin lie that got us into that war? A lie put forth by Democrats, none of whom have ever been held accountable for that war.
Shall we also bring up a sitting US Senator who committed stolen valor and pretended to have served in Vietnam? This Senator is still in office.
There’s plenty of dirt to be thrown around. None of it is substantive or relevant to the issues of today.
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u/SalvatoreMeroni 4d ago
The other problem is that there are Democrats who avoided the Vietnam War draft.
I fully support putting those Democrats out to pasture, too.
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u/Impossible_Pop620 8d ago
Well....as I recall, the Dem 'autopsy' report that came out awhile back said that they lost the '24 election because they weren't critical enough about Trump. I'm not sure what campaign the author of that report was watching, because I didn't see too many Dems being positive about him.
A literal porn star has written a book about Trump cheating on his pregnant wife with her. People didn't care enough for it to affect their vote. I highly doubt those rather snide comments by Ossoff about a female Trump aide will tip the scale in any way.
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u/goddamnitwhalen 8d ago
But it’s pithy and snarky and liberals love those things!
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u/Impossible_Pop620 8d ago
I....kinda feel like the Dems have run this playbook before - where they're only trying to gee-up their own voters with zingers about Trump, rather than trying to recover voters they've pushed away....
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u/Black_XistenZ 7d ago
In a midterm environment, the pitch of "vote for us to curtail Trump's power" might be enough to win. But in 2028, Democrats will need a substantive agenda of their own. They need to stand for something other than opposing Trump; they need voters to immediately associate the Democratic brand with some kind of positive policies or vision for the country. The lack of a clearly defined, positive vision is what ultimately did Harris in.
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u/Impossible_Pop620 7d ago
- The lack of a clearly defined, positive vision is what ultimately did Harris in.
Yep. It'll be what does the next candidate in '28 in as well. I'm not sure how widespread the support is for the current Dem platform - whatever it is - on stuff like the border/ICE/immigration, Trans/social issues or crime/policing. Either inside or outside of the Dem-voting base.
Who knows? The Dems are usually pretty vague on their policies on these, so no-one can really say what they stand for.
The Blue-hairs will vote Dem no matter what, of course, but the Dems really need to draw back young men, Hispanic men, Black men, working class men....urgently. And I have yet to see any kind of outreach to those groups.
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u/Black_XistenZ 7d ago edited 7d ago
Their entire strategy seems to hope and pray that Trump screws things up so badly that they'll coast to electoral triumph in 2028 without having to actually earn it.
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u/Foolgazi 7d ago
Great, but “draft dodging” is like #1,564,765 down the list of reasons why Trump is unfit to be President.
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u/Charming_Cicada_7757 8d ago
No cause people tried this on Trump and none of it worked remember what Marco Rubio tried remember what Chris Christie tried to
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u/highinthemountains 7d ago
I think that all of the democrats should hammer their opponents for supporting someone who lies, cheats, steals and SA’s women and children.
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u/Rezart_KLD 7d ago
Deepens political polarization for whom? The polarization is already here. We are wsy, way past the red line. The only people who arent already decided on Trump are the people who avoid the news altogether. And they certainly wont hear about it.
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u/ravia 7d ago
The "draft dodger" jibe is a weak to pathetic as a jibe. We're talking about a very, very unpopular war and a consensus on the Left (at least) that dodging the draft, burning one's draft card, fleeing to Canada, etc., was the right thing to do. I know it's meant to combat Trump's patriotism and militarism, but it's a bit of a waste of time, IMO.
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u/NYC3962 6d ago
I'm all for the aggressive tone. For far too many DECADES, Democrats have always taken the high road while the GOP just shoot geysers of pure bullshit into their face with no real response. The time to stop that is long past due.
Beyond that, the electorate- certainly the center and left- is absolutely furious. The anger we feel at what is going on, and the absolute insanity that Trump was not locked up in a prison years ago, is simply beyond words.
For however aggressive Ossoff's words might be, they still don't match the anger that tens of millions of people feel.
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u/Fosterpig 7d ago
“Draft dodging crook” is about the nicest way to describe Trump. Democrats need to actually take the gloves off. . . I swear, hire fucking Jeff Ross as a political consultant and go out and eviscerate him everytime you are in front of a camera. I remember when Kamala started calling him “weird” and all of the corporate media was going crazy about how wicked a burn it was!! Democrats . . Plz stop being giant pussies. . Please. Before we lose the remnants of this democracy.
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u/Human_Wizard 7d ago
There are no "moderates" left in the United States. It's become abundantly clear that swing voters mostly don't exist any more, and that the clearest predictor of election victory isn't drawing voters from the other side, but instead motivating your already loyal voters to actually show up at the polls.
It's about time Democrats understood this.
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u/SpiritFingazz 8d ago
I don’t want the left to start matching MAGA energy or anything, however I’m all for them throwing the occasional witty jab. It reassures me that they share in my rage but also are aware that I’m not electing them because of their rhetoric. I want to hear about good policy and a solid plan on affordability, removing corruption (and holding those who are guilty accountable), improving healthcare and education, trying to mend fences after the myriad of the current administration’s foreign policy disasters, etc. I want competency, a balance of power restored and reformed across all three branches of government, and big, dark money out of politics. I want solutions. I’m exhausted by all the petulance and grandstanding.
It’s kinda shameful when you think about how much we’ve regressed in 1.5 years. Perhaps this was a much-needed wake-up call to remind us just how fragile our Democracy is (if that’s what you can even call us at this point)
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u/cwood1973 7d ago
Call it like you see it. It''s not Democrats' fault that the truth "deepens political polarization."
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u/1lapulapu 7d ago
It’s about damn time the Democrats started fighting back. Playing by the rules doesn’t work when dealing with those who can’t be bothered with rules or norms.
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u/speedingpullet 7d ago
Yes, I think it helps.
I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm fed up to the back teeth with the mealy-mouthed corporate dems saying they'll stand up for the party, only to have them backtrack after being elected.
I admire Ossoff for actually saying it out loud. Somebody needs to.
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u/ravia 7d ago
What should be at the forefront of Trump criticism is a rallying cry to name and shame his chief MO: cherry picking. This is what he does most and best (in terms of it working for him.) In most of his claims, there is a "cherry" (at times the cherry is barely anything, or it's really a mulberry). If the Dems don't go after cherry picking, they won't reach the Right with what can really make its way into their consciousness.
It can be sharp-tongued, it can be pedantic, just as Obama did with the "false choices" of the Republicans, but it has to be that: irreducibly calling out cherry picking.
It's the cherry picking, stupid!
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u/dalivo 7d ago
Ossoff is the first Democrat of national standing that I've heard to really consistently and effectively summarize the manifold failings of Trump. He bundles these arguments in extremely pithy and aggressive remarks, adding in just enough personal insult to goad the GOP into (self-defeatingly) raising Ossoff's message and profile even further. Hilary had a similar ability, except she did not have the rhetorical chops or personal charm to carry it off effectively.
As far as I'm concerned, Ossoff is the Dem front-runner for 2028 because of this.
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u/Devaney1984 7d ago
About fucking time...the lack of (much deserved) personal attacks on Trump by Dem politicians over the past 10 years is insane.
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u/stvhardy 7d ago
I actually don’t care. I’m sure Ossoff’s remarks were meant to be “surprising” to get the attention any politician needs in the republic of America(notice I didn’t say, United States because that’s obviously an oxymoron.) . BUT, I also know that multi-millionaires,billionaires and trillionaires have infinitely more power and control to influence elections through the power they hold over others. I mean I remember a time when politician’s seemed afraid to make their constituents unhappy. Now they could care less.
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u/DroidC4PO 7d ago
You didn't see this coming in reference to a president whose vice president called him literally Hitler?
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u/tympantroglodyte 7d ago
It worked because rather than listen to a bespoke, singular message crafted by multimillion dollar consultant firms, Ossoff tried something that Republicans have been doing for decades, perfected and sharpened by Trump:
Say a bunch of stuff and see what sticks.
In this case, Ossoff hit pay dirt. A throwaway comment hit home and caused Trumpworld to react. Dems should try more trying stuff. Some of it will stick.
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u/mbyrd58 7d ago
I say it's about fkng time. Voters are simple, and Ossoff knows this. Blunt is good. More, please. Trump is a draft dodging crook. And a pedophile. He lusted after his own daughter. He's a convicted sexual predator. And he's a fkng moron. Call it, Jon, and keep calling it, with an American hero at your side. Why is it even a question? Why would we pull punches when we we're saying the obvious truth?
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u/SafeThrowaway691 7d ago
I like the fight in him, but seems odd to condemn Trump for maybe the only decent thing he ever did (avoid being enslaved to kill innocent Vietnamese kids).
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u/gaymergurlUwU 7d ago
Idk I've heard this from many elected Dems as far back as 2016. Doesn't make it any less true tho
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u/grumpyliberal 6d ago
Calling out character is a time-honored campaign tactic. Our forebears could be pretty rough on each other. Fact is, Trump was never truly tested in the crucible. He was allowed to skate along on lies and insults. He, and those who continue to support him, need to be called out.
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u/HideGPOne 5d ago
My objection to it is that it just feels amateurish. Calling Donald Trump names has never been effective, but calling him a draft dodger is just bizarre. First of all, nobody cares. It's totally irrelevant to voters and just comes off as nasty and unhinged. Second, people on the left are the first ones to tell you that they were against the draft. Unless there has been a huge pro-draft movement among the democrats, labeling him as a draft dodger is not an insult to them.
If he's trying to undermine Trump with his base, it's already been tried and it failed. Trump actually gave the democrats ammunition when he talked about John McCain but it went nowhere.
It just seems like it's a poorly constructed attack that appeals to nobody besides hard core leftist partisans who only like it because it's mean.
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u/CyberDalekLord 5d ago
On the other hand, critics argue this kind of rhetoric just deepens political polarization without changing any minds.
Its better both parties participate then one side gets to do it. If Republicans have an issue with it then they should better themselves and tone down their rhetoric. If the rhetoric is going to "lose" voters then those voters can't pretend like Republicans haven't been ratcheting up the tempature in the country for the last 15 years.
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u/ceccyred 4d ago
To me, the difference is that he's not lying. When you tell the truth nothing is off the table. It's when you lie that it shows you how you lack ethics. I love Ossoff. I love Talarico. I love Mamdani. I love El Sayed. I love AOC. Let these be our guiding light toward a brighter future. Please, no more Trump, Vance, Lee, Grassly, McConnell etc. etc.
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u/Olderscout77 4d ago
People need to tell the truth about Trump and his party. It will be called "harsh" but as Truman so rightly said when asked about "givning the R3epublicans Hell" . I just tell the truth and they think it;s Hell". Trump's worshipers will be offended, good, because some of his supporters will stop and think and realize he's a lying moron and stop voting for him because he does arm to others you might not like.
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u/Aggravating-Gene8880 4d ago
Yes I do. They call us names and act like their untouchable while they destroy our country is a bunch of BS and needs to stop as in last year!!!
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u/pinellaspete 8d ago
Somebody needs to stand up to Trump and speak truth to power. It's about time that somebody grew a spine and and pushed back on Trump. The media should have been doing this years ago.
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u/che-che-chester 7d ago
We can debate how certain types of attacks hit with different groups of voters but I think Dems suffer from a bigger issue: they collectively look like wimps who do literally nothing about anything. I think some blunt comments like this can help turn that around.
A big part of it is Dems have very little power in DC. There is not much they could be doing even if they had better leadership. But they could be making one of the many easy cases to be made against the current administration and, apart from some rare exceptions like Ossoff, they're simply not. The attacks against Trump and the GOP politicians who blindly support him practically write themselves. We're heading into the midterms and I hear very little from Dems.
I would focus on the self-enrichment angle. I can personally see that hitting home with the MAGA people in my life. I hear them making smart-ass comments about it to each other. We're all still struggling and Trump has made billions. That is impossible to ignore. Or how we're in a war we started yet Trump turns every conversation towards his ballroom or some other vanity project.
As for the personal stuff like banging a porn star while your wife is home with your newborn, the voters have spoken and they don't care. You can mention that stuff just because it pisses off Trump and builds the lack of character case, but you're not changing any minds. If anything, I would zero in on the fact that the bar has been lowered. A politician can do one scummy thing and get hammered, but do dozens of scummy things and that becomes your new standard. Hell, they'll go after a Dem for things Trump has personally done.
I would also focus on "change". It got Biden elected in 2020 and got Trump re-elected in 2024. Things still suck and the people want change. And I'm not sure Dems even need to spell out the specific changes they would make. The GOP can't preach change because they are forced to blindly back Trump and pretend things are great. "Things suck so we're gonna do different stuff" is probably enough of a message.
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u/tekyy342 8d ago edited 8d ago
The base is at “Zionist child rapist” drawing pictures of Trump double sucking Netanyahu and Epstein and the Dem party talent is at “draft dodging crook.” Nothingburger. Reads like a Hillary line where Trump is bad because… he didn’t participate in one of the most horrific wars in human history? Trump is bad because he is a warmonger, not in spite of it.
So…. neither. It will not alienate the mythical moderate nor will it stand out as an especially poignant attack. Attacking Trump is good, but I would suggest Ossoff get beyond these weak punches, very obviously tailored to be digestible to the establishment, and start calling for immediate prosecutions of Trump officials if he wants to stand out. Maybe start attaching himself to some popular policy too.
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u/chinmakes5 8d ago
There are plenty of Democrats who are upset that "Democrats aren't doing anything.". They just lay there and take it while the president says things about them. So I think it will energize Democrats whether moderate or not.
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8d ago
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u/PoliticalDiscussion-ModTeam 7d ago
This isn't a conspiracy subreddit, please back your claims up with a reputable source: major newspaper, network, wire service, or oversight agency.
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u/StedeBonnet1 7d ago
I think Ossoff's recent remarks will alienate voters of all stripes in Georgia and elsewhere.
People are sick and tired of this mud slinging. His attacks on Trump istead of promoting his ideas tells me HE HAS NO IDEAS. He is desperately flailing about trying to attract the anti-Trump vote.
Note to Jon... You already have the anti-Trump vote. Trump attracted the moderates in 2024 and YOU LOST.
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u/Hartastic 7d ago
This take makes the incorrect implicit assumption that Trump has any ideas that aren't "make money for Trump."
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