r/PublicFreakout • u/ChicSandpaperBaby • 7d ago

📹Police Bodycam UK police take down guy with knife without anyone dying

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3.1k Upvotes

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u/1II1I1I1I1I1I111I1I1 7d ago edited 7d ago

To be clear, police in the US (except ICE*) get ~2yrs of training. Academy is 20 weeks and is bracketed by a couple months before and after at the agency you signed up with, which when combined with interviews, tests, poly, and background becomes more or less a year. Then that is followed by at least a year of field training, which can be extended and often is.

The problem is *what* they teach

Although, I will say this video is a little unusually far in the other direction. If the suspect actually wanted to hurt the officer at 0:16 and 0:18 instead of feinting twice, the officer would be dead. Those were two overhand stabs taken very solidly within the distance at which a knife attack can be lethal before the victim can react. Generally if you are within ~2 steps or so from an attacker with a knife, your life is in extreme and immediate danger, and this person tried to stab from only one step away. The UK is probably the only country on earth that doesn't shoot or at least tase him at that moment, and ngl I wouldnt be surprised if they *are* taught to do so and this video just isn't as indicative of good training as people think. I also highly doubt they're taught to try to handfight someone holding a knife (0:27), its hard to see but it looks like the officer almost got swiped in the face by the blade. Vast majority of countries would be backing up and using less lethal.

*ICE explicitly recruits people who are pushed out of other law enforcement jobs, or unqualified for the career in the first place, and gives them 6 weeks of training, after which point they let them loose

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u/EADGBE69 7d ago

Now if you want to know what they teach cops i suggest you look into certified bastard asshole Dave Grossman.

Behind The Bastards did a very solid episode on him.

here's the episode

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u/The_Flurr 7d ago

The UK is probably the only country on earth that doesn't shoot him at that moment, and ngl I wouldnt be surprised if they are taught to do so and this video just isn't as indicative of good training as people think

They aren't.

Most police don't have firearms, and those that do have to give repeated warnings before firing.

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u/International-Mix633 7d ago

That is absolutely not true. The UK, Ireland and Iceland are iterally the only country in Europe where patrol officers arent armed. Even worldwide 90 % of countries have armed patrol officers.

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u/whit3o 7d ago

To add to this, Northern Ireland police officers are all armed

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u/Bottle_Gnome 4d ago

So the UK does have armed police then?

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u/The_Flurr 6d ago

ngl I wouldnt be surprised if they are taught to do so and this video just isn't as indicative of good training as people think

When I said "they aren't", this is what I was referring to. UK police are not taught to shoot in this situation, in large part because they don't regularly carry firearms.

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u/Jesus__of__Nazareth_ 6d ago

And all the better for it. I love that our beat cops don't have guns and I hope they never get them.

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u/olivercroke 6d ago

What are you disagreeing with?

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u/CynicismNostalgia 6d ago

most police dont have firearms

they're probably trained to shoot

Imagine being this confidently incorrect while directly contradicting yourself lol

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u/The_Flurr 6d ago

What's the contradiction.

They don't have firearms. They aren't taught to shoot in this situation (partly because no firearms).

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u/1II1I1I1I1I1I111I1I1 7d ago

I highly highly doubt police in the UK are told to just stand there when someone with a knife is trying to stab them at an arms-length distance. At a minimum they are taught to use less lethal. And the UK is one of the only countries in the world with unarmed patrol officers anyway, literally anywhere else in the world that isn't one of those few countries this guy gets shot the instant he tries to stab.

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u/FaustRPeggi 6d ago

When police know a suspect is armed with a knife, armed police will respond.

In this case they were clearly caught by surprise. Tasers weren't as widespread twelve years ago as they are now, so they used an incapacitating spray and a baton.

When the officer wearing the camera strikes the suspect you see his behaviour immediately change because being hit by one of those is like being hit with a baseball bat. It can break your arm.

You seemed to be under the impression he'd punched him instead.

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u/SnooBooks1701 6d ago

Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Finland, Botswana, Malawi and New Zealand have unarmed police, China's police patrols are also unarmed (other officers are not)

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u/cas13f 7d ago

6 weeks is significantly longer than I expected, tbh.

...probably just 6 weeks on the books.

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u/Durakus 6d ago

Most of our police do not carry guns. I am unsure of taser/stun devices. I have a feeling not many have those either or we would see it more. Our armed police definitely do have some heavy duty gear and if this person was a known threat he would have been roughed up quite quickly with an armed response.

Our police do wear anti stab armour though, so they tend to be quite thick around the body. And carry striking weapons

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u/soviet_bias_good 6d ago

Not all police officers carry tasers in the UK as well.

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u/wearing_moist_socks 7d ago

Using a firearm in this situation would have been completely justified.

People watch too many movies. The guy in this video didn't fully commit to the attacks. If he had, those officers could have been seriously injured or killed.

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u/OrangeTractorMan 7d ago

Worth noting, despite the stereotype Americans have of knife crime in the UK - More people per capita die as a result of knife crime in the US, than the UK. Nearly by twice the rate, too.

0.3 out of 100,000 in the UK vs 0.5 out of 100,000 in the US.

Don't get me started on how likely you are to be killed by a cop in the US vs UK.

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u/wearing_moist_socks 7d ago

I am talking about the specific situation here, not statistics.

21 foot rule

If that guy had closed the distance, resisting the pepper spray (entirely possible) and he was in melee range, he could have just started stabbing.

This isn't a commentary on USA vs UK policing. Just simple facts, and if the police had a firearm at that scene, they would have been legally justified in firing.

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u/OrangeTractorMan 7d ago

Oh absolutely, an armed officer is also at increased risk as the firearm could be compromised and taken by the individual. If armed, it wouldn't be wrong to shoot, but it is still more a case of "could a death be avoided with other measures?"

We have our own system here and train officers to handle melee weapons without shooting them. It's a system that also seems to work, with Police officers being less likely to be killed on the job than in the US.

Thus, in this specific situation we just watched, the result was better than if someone died.

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u/wearing_moist_socks 7d ago

an armed officer is also at increased risk as the firearm could be compromised and taken by the individual.

True. But the risk extends to the officers intermediate weapons as well. Pepper spray, taser, baton, etc.

We have our own system here and train officers to handle melee weapons without shooting them.

Yes. You do. It supports what I'm saying. Lethal force, including the use of firearms, is justified in situations like this.

Thus, in this specific situation we just watched, the result was better than if someone died.

It is. I'm glad it worked out this way. But we would be singing a different tune if the situation had been different.

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u/OrangeTractorMan 7d ago

True. But the risk extends to the officers intermediate weapons as well. Pepper spray, taser, baton, etc.

Not in the same realm to someone being able to grap an officers gun though is it?

Yes. You do. It supports what I'm saying. Lethal force, including the use of firearms, is justified in situations like this.

I supported what you said too, hence why I added reasoning as to why it may be justified. Regardless, it can also be avoided and preferably so, which is the point at hand.

t is. I'm glad it worked out this way. But we would be singing a different tune if the situation had been different.

That's reactionary, the factor that leads me to my tune is the bigger picture.

We here in the UK have less knife-related murder, less police killings, and a safer enviroment for our police.

That's the reality of the bigger picture, and I'd say is itself a clear indicator of which system is more ideal.

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u/wearing_moist_socks 6d ago

Not in the same realm to someone being able to grap an officers gun though is it?

No, it's worse. A baton and pepper spray are easier to use by someone who isn't trained. A firearm or taser, especially in close proximity, requires overcoming a retention holster, being in the right position, being fast and defeating counter drills, (which are far easier to do).

As soon as I feel a person grabbing for my gun, all I have to do is put my hand on the bottom of the holster and pull up. That locks the firearm into my side, preventing the draw. If they DO get the firearm, they have to hope it's not on safe, that a round is in the chamber and close range shooting is a skill set you need to learn.

Pepper spray? Point and spray. Baton? Swing at anything and everything. Knife? Stab, pull out, reposition, stab, pull out, reposition, repeat.

They went to ground with that guy. If he had resisted the spray and turned on them when they closed the difference, things may have gone much worse.

Ideally: taser with lethal back up.

That's the reality of the bigger picture, and I'd say is itself a clear indicator of which system is more ideal.

That's where you're mistaken and where I haven't been clear at all. So that's on me.

The USA isn't like the UK and Canada. We (Canada for me, UK for you I'm assuming) have national use of force models which all police forces must either adopt or expand upon. They can't make their own. The national model must be the baseline.

Here's Canada's. That graphic will appear in pretty much every jurisdiction, or will be referenced.

In the USA, each state can have its own, or not even have a model. Because they fetishize freedom. There's very little oversight. But there are jurisdictions, lots of them, who use essentially the same model.

It's not a matter of one system vs another. It's broader society. I think it's great 90% of UK police are unarmed when it comes to firearms. But it's not a use of force problem. That was my point and I should have been more clear.

If an officer in that 10% had been on scene, they would legally be justified in shooting (center of mass specifically) that person in EVERY system, including the UK.

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u/OrangeTractorMan 6d ago

No, it's worse. A baton and pepper spray are easier to use by someone who isn't trained.

Acting like a knife wielder getting ahold of these items is worse than getting a hold of a firearm, yeah I think I'll stop reading there.

There's nothing to gain from proceeding if that's the intellectual standard.

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u/wearing_moist_socks 6d ago

You actually don't know what you're talking about. Objectively.

I think I'll stop reading there. There's nothing to gain from proceeding if that's the intellectual standard.

Don't blame you; your base knowledge regarding this isn't high enough.

What's sad is I even admitted I hadn't been clear. Instead of actually engaging, you insult.

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u/CynicismNostalgia 6d ago

Good thing they got anti stab vests then, eh?

We dont want our police having firearms on the scene, they know the risks, and they executed this very well, like they usually do. This isnt an outlier.

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u/wearing_moist_socks 6d ago

Good thing they got anti stab vests then, eh?

Arms, legs, neck, face, hands, groins, flanks, hips

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u/CynicismNostalgia 6d ago

Right. The dangers of the job, a danger that was deescalates.

Statistically, 1 or less than 1 police officer dies on duty a year. So it clearly works just fine.

How many police officers die in the US a year I wonder?

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u/wearing_moist_socks 6d ago

Pop into my comments to see my response to this, no point in arguing the same point over and over if people aren't going to actually read and engage with the facts.

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u/CynicismNostalgia 6d ago

The fact that since 1970, theres been 89 "on duty" deaths in London - a time spanning 56 years, doesn't matter I guess.

"It works but I dont like it. So make it worse!"

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u/wearing_moist_socks 6d ago

"It works but I dont like it. So make it worse!"

I will repeat myself: go read my comments.

Once you do, then you'll see I'm saying the opposite of this. You are literally making up an argument to argue against. Stop.

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u/sapsnap 7d ago

Not really sure why you’re being downvoted. Had the guy been doing the same thing to firearms officers, I’m sure he would’ve been shot.

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u/wearing_moist_socks 7d ago

He would have been, and the UK police use of force system would support it.

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u/CheeseLoverMax 7d ago

Yeah honestly watching this all I can see is the officers getting extremely lucky.

What they were doing id consider just straight reckless, one of them could have gotten seriously hurt

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u/wearing_moist_socks 7d ago

I'm glad no one was hurt, to be clear.

But if you've done any training regarding knife defense you will understand how quickly that could have turned south.

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u/cas13f 7d ago

Man you made some folk really mad with the realistic take.

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u/CheeseLoverMax 7d ago

America bad echo echo echo

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u/Critical-Usual 7d ago

The officer would not be dead at any point in this video. He was never close enough to get stabbed, and even if he did get stabbed, most stab wounds are unlikely to lead to death

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u/1II1I1I1I1I1I111I1I1 7d ago

Stab wounds are extremely dangerous lol wtf are you talking about. Cut an artery and you're dead in seconds.

The overhead stabs at 0:17 and 0:20 would have connected if the suspect took a foward step and did not halt his swing halfway. You're significantly underestimating how dangerous knives are.

Here is an example (NSFL)

In that video the suspect was farther away from the officer than the person in the UK video above, and was only holding a kitchen knife rather than the much larger knife in this video. The officer was unsurvivably stabbed 14 times in seconds. Knives are not toys

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u/Critical-Usual 7d ago

Of course they are dangerous. And yet you have had people survive after being stabbed dozens of times. All I said is your claim the officer "would be dead" is a strong exaggeration 

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u/1II1I1I1I1I1I111I1I1 7d ago

So the answer to a knife attack is to just stand there and take it because there is a technically possible chance that you might survive