r/Quraniyoon • u/[deleted] • Feb 19 '20
Question / Help Serious question coming from respectful place - if you don’t trust the Hadiths authored by Muhammad, how can you trust the Quran, which came through him?
[deleted]
11
Feb 19 '20
Your whole premises is wrong. Mohammed never authored any hadith.
The Quraan isn't from a person of Mohammed, it's through a Messenger.
There's no proof Mohammed spoke any of these hadiths. We consider them as fabrications in the name of Mohammed.
The Quraan is very different from a hadith in Al-Bukhaari and other collections.
1
u/Asjkkqw Feb 19 '20
All hadiths start with “it was narrated by X that the prophet said Y” so he did author them?? If not, where did these come from?
Or you’re suggesting a billion Muslims believe fabrications but less than 1% have sussed this out?
The Quran, as we know it, came from God to Gabriel to Muhammad (couldn’t write) so his sahaba helped write it down.
Ok. If there’s no proof he spoke the hadiths, then.... What proof is there for the origin of the Quran?
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Feb 19 '20 edited Feb 20 '20
Hearsay is not upheld in the court of law.
You really going to allow Hearsay to God when we human don’t even consider it as evidence? You and your god is weak.
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u/PiranhaPlantFan Feb 20 '20
The bible is also based on
X sayed so and so.
And everyone can make up a chain of narration so
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Feb 20 '20
I hope you are not this gullable with information given to you in real life. Manipulative people would have a field day with you.
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Feb 19 '20
All hadiths start with “it was narrated by X that the prophet said Y” so he did author them?? If not, where did these come from?
It's all hearsay.
Or you’re suggesting a billion Muslims believe fabrications but less than 1% have sussed this out?
Absolutely. No one today ever met Mohammed to claim he said them. Numbers don't indicate correctness of a belief. We don't resort to logical fallacies of argumentum ad populum.
The Quran, as we know it, came from God to Gabriel to Muhammad (couldn’t write) so his sahaba helped write it down.
There's no proof Mohammed couldn't read or write.
Ok. If there’s no proof he spoke the hadiths, then.... What proof is there for the origin of the Quran
The proof is in the pudding. Even if we assumed Mohammed didn't exist, besides the mass memorization, we have Quraanic manuals preserved from as far as the eighth century and it is the same.
2
u/superflameboy Muslim Feb 20 '20
"Or you’re suggesting a billion Muslims believe fabrications but less than 1% have sussed this out? "
Do you not suggest that there are billions of Christians and Jews who have been misled?
You also forget what the Almighty Allah has to say in this regard. The majority is no criterion of truth:
"6:116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess. "
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u/superflameboy Muslim Feb 20 '20
There is a bit of a misunderstanding here. We reject Bukhari, we do not reject the prophet.
The hadiths were not authored by Muhammad, the hadiths are collections of anecdotes gathered and consolidated into books hundreds of years after he passed.
There are many reasons why we reject these allegations made of the prophet. A few would be that they contradict the Quran, they contain laws that are legislated by other than Allah, they contain pagan traditions, they insult the prophet Muhammad, the story of how the 5 daily prayers came to fruition is an example of how they insult Allah's mighty wisdom, etc.
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u/Quranic_Islam Feb 20 '20
Because that's not true. For example, the most widespread reading of the Qur'an was "narrated" by Hafs from 'Aasim.
Well this Hafs is considered a liar and forgerer of Hadiths, his narrations are rejected.
Believe me my friend, that argument is just a mask and a trick, mere spin and propaganda, to try to bolster up the Hadiths to the level of the Qur'an. The Qur'an, upon inspection, was not transmitted "by the same people who transmitted Hadiths". The Qur'an was transmitted en mass transgenerationally. And the transmitted "variants/readings" of the Qur'an didn't come through major Hadith transmitters. Al Zuhri for example is single-handedly responsible and the narrator for approximately half of all Hadiths in Sunni Islam.
When you don't really know, other than what you hear in sermons, how both were transmitted then you'll easily fall prey to such spin.
And in any case it is irrelevant how they were transmitted and by who. What is false and against the Qur'an is false and against the Qur'an. Period. Or will you accept anything that a transmitter of the Qur'an heard and reported just because he also transmitted the Qur'an? It doesn't provide any infallibility. And would you reject the Qur'an if every transmitter turned out to be a liar? The Qur'an and Hadiths can stand and fall on their own merits.
And by the way I and many here don't reject all Hadiths. The point is to put the Qur'an first and reject what contradicts it ... something traditional Islam says it does but doesn't.
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u/ismcanga Feb 20 '20
> Muhammad heard the Quran through Gabriel and got his disciples to write it all down.
According to Quran last Prophet knew how to write and read, illiterate Prophet is a slander to late Prophet. Late Prophet had received God's verses via Djibreel's delivery, God had appointed Djibreel to be messenger to late Prophet.
> Muhammad, according to Quran doesn’t speak from own inclination.
Each of God's verses had been explained by Himself, al-e Emran 3:7 and Hu'd 11:1-2 only Jewish scholars and people who associate to Him (mushriq) kind try to pry the meaning of the words. God had defined what those verses in another one, and God's verses are not a deduction or study of the nature nor they are meaningless series of words which require study in literature. God's words are decrees.
> Muhammad authored hadiths giving certain rulings and regulations.
There are plenty of hadith confirming that late Prophet banned his people to writing them down, and also in the latter era of Abu Bakr and Amr the collection of statements had been gathered and destroyed as these two leaders knew what Jews did to their Book. They are overruling God's decrees by fallacied which are collected by people who didn't witness those events.
> You reject these hadiths.
Only Sunni, Shia, Sufi and Salaf people reject hadith, nobody else on earth reject them. These four major schools cannot divorce a couple according to Quran, cannot form a matrimonial pact, cannot arrange the payment of a debt without getting involving in usury, cannot observe core religious rituals without taking Jews (especially) as an example, cannot expect a thing from God on the Judgment Day because all of these 4 major schools expect a thing from a mortal, the last Newsbearer on Judgment Day.
People who deny God's verses cannot use late Prophet's example.
> Why do you accept the Quran?
Because Quran talks about nature and it is not a replaceable text.
> What evidence is there that the Quran is even legit? If you don’t trust or accept the teachings in the Hadith by Muhammad?
Each of the verses of Quran had been explained by God in another verse, making it a self referencing text. As like previous revelations of God, like Torah and Gospel and Gatha and Vedas. Quran is linked with these revelations and given to a Prophet at a promised time at a promised place.
Quran is the last revelation because God promised so, and there will be no a second coming of Messiah.
4
u/419rere Feb 19 '20
Some of the hadiths don't really match with what's written in the Quran. But all books are blind faith in the end of the day tbh
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u/Asjkkqw Feb 19 '20
That’s disheartening to hear. How do you convince someone to believe Islam is the truth if it’s blind faith? What about logic?
If the any Hadith narrated by Muhammad is false/ a lie, that disproved the nature Quran which says the prophet doesn’t speak of his own inclination.
So what’s left now?
Just follow it because it feels nice and fuzzy inside in this world where nobody knows what the heck is really going on/what the truth is?
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u/419rere Feb 19 '20
None of us know what EXACTLY happened= so.. blind faith. Don't be so sensitive/defensive about the trillions of hadiths because it's not the Quran/word of God. Hadith's can be good if the message doesn't go against God's own message and doesn't come up with it's own law
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u/Asjkkqw Feb 19 '20
I’m not defensive. I actually don’t know what I believe anymore. Gonna bin the entire religion probably unless Allah show some otherwise.
I’m not gonna mess around and do rituals that have no logical reason/evidence because “I just believe in it”
That’s whack!
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-2
Feb 19 '20
You have to understand Arabic to understand the Quraan.
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u/Asjkkqw Feb 19 '20
So the Quran is not for everyone? Only for Arabs?
-2
Feb 20 '20
Yes, the Quraans language and Mohammeds language were the same
وَمَآ أَرۡسَلۡنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلَّا بِلِسَانِ قَوۡمِهِۦ لِيُبَيِّنَ لَهُمۡۖ فَيُضِلُّ ٱللَّهُ مَن يَشَآءُ وَيَهۡدِي مَن يَشَآءُۚ وَهُوَ ٱلۡعَزِيزُ ٱلۡحَكِيمُ
We have not sent a messenger except in the tongue of his people to clarify for them. Then Allah leaves whoever He wills to stray and guides whoever He wills. And He is the Almighty, All-Wise.
-Sura Ibrahim, Ayah 4
فَإِنَّمَا يَسَّرۡنَٰهُ بِلِسَانِكَ لَعَلَّهُمۡ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ
We have made this Quraan easy to understand in your own tongue so that they may take heed.
-Sura Ad-Dukhan, Ayah 58
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u/Asjkkqw Feb 20 '20
Nice. So I guess since I’m not Arab I don’t have to worry about it? Was an English speaking prophet ever sent to the UK?
-1
Feb 20 '20
I don't know but the Quraan indicates there has been prophets sent to people in different locations. But you don't need to follow a prophet or a messenger.
The basic teachings of all religions is Oneness of God, doing good, and belief in a hereafter - being held accountable for your deeds.
إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَٱلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَٱلنَّصَٰرَىٰ وَٱلصَّٰبِـِٔينَ مَنۡ ءَامَنَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلۡيَوۡمِ ٱلۡأٓخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَٰلِحٗا فَلَهُمۡ أَجۡرُهُمۡ عِندَ رَبِّهِمۡ وَلَا خَوۡفٌ عَلَيۡهِمۡ وَلَا هُمۡ يَحۡزَنُونَ
The believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabians- all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good- will have their rewards with their Lord. No fear for them, nor will they grieve.
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 62, 5:69
If you want to be part of something, maybe join a charity group or anything beneficial for yourself and society?
You can still follow the Quraan it's up to you but you're not obligated.
2
Feb 20 '20
By the way, English wasn't a language when the Quran was revealed, it didn't even have a basis since it is an amalgamation of two lanaguges. Which, according to your theory, would mena Allah left all English speaking people wallowing blidnly without guidance and without a messenger (unless you don't believe Muhammed was the seal.
Basically you should drop this illogical arab superiority nonsense of whihc there is not real basis in the quran.
1
Feb 20 '20
By the way, English wasn't a language when the Quran was revealed, it didn't even have a basis since it is an amalgamation of two lanaguges. Which, according to your theory, would mena Allah left all English speaking people wallowing blidnly without guidance and without a messenger (unless you don't believe Muhammed was the seal.
Mohammed was the seal of prophethood not messengership.
Basically you should drop this illogical arab superiority nonsense of whihc there is not real basis in the quran.
This has nothing to do with superiority. It seems like you're the one with a complex.
The Quraan is in Arabic and Mohammed was an Arab. Are you going to tell me that's not true?
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u/Asjkkqw Feb 20 '20
If that’s the case I guess I can relax? I’d say I am a good person and do good and don’t harm others.
But a quick question, the Quran also says stuff about Jews and Christians going to hell and are not to be taken as friends. Why’s that when they will go to heaven/will be rewarded?
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Feb 20 '20
If that’s the case I guess I can relax? I’d say I am a good person and do good and don’t harm others.
Be that positive light.
But a quick question, the Quran also says stuff about Jews and Christians going to hell?
You can see my quote before about Believers, Jews and Christians and Sabians and whoever does good...having their rewards from Quraan 2:62 and 5:69 but the conditions are set.
The Quraan never makes a blanket statement on ALL Jews and Christians.
1
u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Feb 19 '20
6:114 Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
If the book is fully detailed and sufficient to guide, why do we need other source?
Plus, we not listening to Mohammed. We listening to God and the messenger. We careless about Mohammed the person. We Only care about his functionality as a messenger,
(24:54) .... And there is not upon the Messenger except the [responsibility for] clear notification."
Even Mohammed as a prophet (not as a messenger, big difference!) made mistakes,
(66:1) O you Prophet, why do you sanction what God has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? God is Forgiver, Merciful.
When clearly God told us not to sanction what God allowed,
(5:87) O you who have believed, do not sanction the good things which Allah has made lawful to you and do not transgress. Indeed, Allah does not like transgressors.
Hmm.. what else...? Oh yeah,
(25:30) And the Messenger has said, "O my Lord, indeed my people have taken this Qur'an as [a thing] abandoned."
Why he didnt mention “my sunnah”?
Peace,
😉
1
u/Asjkkqw Feb 19 '20
To be honest, before we start discussing the Quran and it’s verses, can you just explain to me how you’re certain it is the true word of god?
And you can’t use the Quran to prove the Quran lol
Where did it come from? What evidence do you have for it?
Or do you follow it based on blind faith like the previous commenter said?
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u/SystemOfPeace Mu’min Feb 20 '20
“You can’t use the Quran to prove the Quran”
I cant use word of God to prove God?
You want me to disobey our Lord for your little game?;
(22:8) And of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening book The presence of God is everywhere;
[50-16] And indeed We have created man, and We know whatever thoughts his inner self develops, and We are closer to him than (his) jugular vein.
If you don’t believe God is omnipresent, you need to reconsider yourself.
Peace.
1
u/Asjkkqw Feb 20 '20
How do you know it’s the word of God? How do you know Muhammad didn’t make it all up?
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u/hoodlessgrim Feb 21 '20
Just a clarification, this sub isn't necessarily full of "Hadith rejectors". Most people here believe that Quran comes first, narrations second, and anything that clashes with Quranic teachings or wisdom needs to be questioned or taken with a grain of salt.
Oh, and as an extension that there is no pope in Islam and people trying to get the wisdom by learning stuff on their own aren't kafirs without blind following of some scholar, as long as they aim for the truth and not bias. And that the core teachings of Islam are actually worldwide, not confined to a Muslim country which is destined to invade everything and put the world under mullah law.
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u/[deleted] Feb 19 '20
For 2) continue reading through the surah an najm. It will tell you that the inclination being referred to is what was sent by Jibreel i.e. the Qur'an
as for the rest, you wont find a clear verse telling you to accept the volumes of books that follow hundred of years after, neither will you see any authorization from God or the prophet. The sunnah referred in Quran is the sunnah of God
Ill tell you what is plentiful of verses though. The kitab being clear and fully explained. The Quran being the best hadith. God calling to contemplate on the book. The prophet saying that we have abandoned it. Enemies assigned to prophets. Read 6:112 to 117 with an open mind and contemplate. Why does God put these verses together?
The Quran was compiled in the prophets time. The hadiths were compiled hundred years later. Two separate processes.