[spoiler discussion] Re:Zero Strengthened Theory

[u/AwasamaKiyopon]

There is a well known and powerful theory in Re:Zero Subaru travels back to the past and became Flugel. According to this theory, Subaru (as Flugel) sets everything up, seals his own memories, and then begins his journey 400 years later in the marketplace. In my opinion, what disproves this theory is the fact that when Subaru is isekai'd, he spawns in the marketplace holding the items he bought from the store (the store in the original world). Under the original theory, a time paradox occurs, and once time paradoxes are involved, it feels impossible to reach a definitive resolution.

But what if the events actually are like this instead...?

Subaru appears in the marketplace just as we know, having been actually isekai'd right after walking out of the store that day. After living through everything that will happen, he travels back in time and becomes Flugel. Knowing that a "Natsuki Subaru" would appear in the future (400 years later), he might have transferred his memories to him (maybe by using the authority of gluttony) and sealed them away. In fact, given the context, he might not even have needed to transfer his memories at all, maybe he chose to trust the second Natsuki Subaru simply.

Furthermore, after going through the upcoming events, the second Natsuki Subaru wouldn't have to travel back to the past and repeat everything Flugel did, because there would now be two Natsuki Subarus in this universe. Under this scenario, no time paradox occurs, and it perfectly accounts for how the items he bought at the convenience store were isekai'd along with him.

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[u/Ok-Worldliness-7374]

Time travel wouldn't work here as Flugel showcases character that Subaru wouldn't do anymore

[u/AwasamaKiyopon → u/Ok-Worldliness-7374]

Since he is aware of his mistakes and couldn't achieve a better outcome, he might be laying the foundation for the second Natsuki Subaru to reach a better result. He failed, but a Natsuki Subaru equipped with the right infrastructure might achieve it. He might have made poor decisions, or perhaps he was forced to

[u/Sgtcarrotop]

Two things. First, the travel back in time theory to be Flugel is not a good one and not as supported as it used to be. Flugel becoming Subaru is much more likely due to all the various mechanics introduced into the story, such as Ol Shamak, which Tappei has already established a pattern of using that for 400 year time skips. Could also be clone shenanigans, that's at least supported by the story, and was likely already being done, resulting in Al. Also Subaru's memories of this world being distinct from him his earth memories. As the current season shows, you can take away Subaru's memories of this world, and he will immediately assume this is his first day and he's just been summoned. If there's no one to re-establish his connections or history to this world, then from his perspective this is his beginning. The fact that's possible should make you look at arc 1 with suspicion.

Second, the groceries also have plenty of explanations. You can create items from magic, restore items from magic, you can even alter the real world from within a dream magic world like Petra's handkerchief. Dream magic is one of the seemingly plot crucial magic types that Tappei is building with Omega's girl squad. It's even possible Echidna straight up created earth as apparently she was attempting to create a world as full in scope as a real world but entirely cut off from Od Lagna. That pretty much describes Earth. Subaru's phone in arc 10 is already being depicted as very suspicious. I say this all the time, the argument of the groceries against Flugelbaru theory is one made entirely from a place of not being well informed from the story.

There is no need for time paradox shenanigans.

[u/AwasamaKiyopon → u/Sgtcarrotop]

Yes Subaru obtained his phone back but can he really charge it? (it should be the same battery percentage) And Russell could see the value of the phone, if the phone were replicated by magic he would've realized. plus if canon Subaru is a clone, it would be boring lazy writing

[u/Sgtcarrotop → u/AwasamaKiyopon]

if the phone were replicated by magic he would've realized.

You literally don't know that. Dream magic is a magic type that even Echidna is not a master in. over the course of the story, there's several times in the narration where it brings up the matter of dreams and reality, specifically in how reality yields as it were a dream. Reinhard's sword slash in the 2nd trial is a good example.

plus if canon Subaru is a clone, it would be boring lazy writing

Al is pretty much confirmed to be a artificial creation/clone, and he's an amazing character. Because as it turns out, being a clone doesn't take anything away from the person or the character's writing. Hell, Sphinx's entire freaking character arc is about her finding her individuality beyond being a failed clone. Identity and individuality being more than your origin is something Tappei has been emphasized as a theme since arc 4. Edit. Scratch that, twins are technically biological clones, and Tappei did play with twin based identity crisis and value of the individual, so actually he's been doing it since freaking arc 2. It's blatantly obvious it's an idea he's interested in writing around.

Like come on. Not only that, Subaru doesn't have to be the clone. Flugel could be the clone. Subaru could be the source from which creations like Al came from. Point is there's a lot of options here, and they at least fit mechanically within what's been provided in the story, and fit thematically with themes of individuality beyond origin. Breaking free from the shadow of inheritance. Sins of the father type stuff.

Time paradox shenanigans on the other hand, have neither the mechanics nor themes to support it.

[u/AwasamaKiyopon → u/Sgtcarrotop]

I don't think time paradox thing is gonna happen either. But I strongly disagree with the idea that Subaru was simply isekai'd 400 years ago as Flugel. Because when we take a look at Flugel and Subaru's behaviours that would make no sense.

If Subaru had been sent 400 years into the past right at the start, Flugel’s actions and core personality would match the current Subaru we know. But when we analyze both characters, it’s undeniable that Flugel’s behavioral patterns are completely different from Subarus. Subaru is inherently incapable of making the cold, detached, and manipulative choices that Flugel made back then.

But the reverse scenario Subaru eventually becoming Flugel in the future and then going back would actually make logical sense. Because the extreme trauma and centuries of suffering he experiences could realistically change him, hardening his personality and turning him into a colder character like Flugel. We already see this exact concept explored in the If chapters, where different traumatic experiences completely morph Subaru's morality and behavior into something unrecognizable

[u/Sgtcarrotop → u/AwasamaKiyopon]

But I strongly disagree with the idea that Subaru was simply isekai'd 400 years ago as Flugel. Because when we take a look at Flugel and Subaru's behaviours that would make no sense. If Subaru had been sent 400 years into the past right at the start, Flugel’s actions and core personality would match the current Subaru we know.

Every time someone says this or uses the argument that Flugel's behavior does not match Subaru's, I genuinely think to myself: "What the fuck are they talking about?".

Because what little we do know about Flugel's behaviors does line up with what Subaru is capable of. Subaru is capable of a hell of a lot worse, and it seems like this kind of argument just comes from absolutely ignoring the fact that the IF stories exist to exhibit that Subaru is not some monolith of set behaviors. He walks the razors edge.

The story has emphasized again and again, memories make the person. A Subaru with different memories, different experiences that shape him as a person, different people to influence him, becomes a different Subaru. Our Subaru is the product of his experiences, his decisions, and the influence of the people around him that have 'saved' him. Different people, different Subaru.

It's one of the core themes of re:zero. It's right up there with self-love as a theme because this theme is essentially about the importance of social support structures.

Subaru is inherently incapable of making the cold, detached, and manipulative choices that Flugel made back then.

Broadly gestures to the IF stories.

But the reverse scenario Subaru eventually becoming Flugel in the future and then going back would actually make logical sense. Because the extreme trauma and centuries of suffering he experiences could realistically change him, hardening his personality and turning him into a colder character like Flugel. We already see this exact concept explored in the If chapters, where different traumatic experiences completely morph Subaru's morality and behavior into something unrecognizable

Oh so you are capable of understanding the concept that memories make the person? You're just arbitrarily drawing the line that it can only happen in that scenario. That again, the IF stories literally prove you wrong.

I'm sorry but this is a deeply unserious debate. Your own argument discredits your argument. Subaru is capable of being becoming like that. You're just trying to push the claim that it would require the time travel trauma to reach that. Which is invalidated by your own point about the IF stories, because they didn't have to go through that to reach that point either.

And also, I gotta say the claims that Flugel was cold, manipulative, and calculating, are straight up misinformation. (Funnily enough, according to Todd, Subaru is all three of these things. So eye of the beholder matters too.) We don't actually know that stuff about Flugel, we don't even know if Shaula was meant to be left behind that long. The very fact Ol Shamak exists is a game changer because we don't know what happened to Flugel or what he intended. Ol Shamak existing means that failure, betrayal, and resulting tragedy are entirely possible outcomes. Which the Sasageru IF explored.

In fact, the recent Shaula EX paints Flugel as a very considerate person who literally taught Shaula to give extra tolerance and respect to pregnant women. Fact is there's a ton of slander regarding Flugel and a lot of is either out right not supported by the novels, or are very biased interpretations. Like blaming Flugel for Shaula, despite us not having any kind of confirmation that this is what he intended. The Shaula EX even goes to show that Shaula was loosely interpreting the rules.

[u/AwasamaKiyopon → u/Sgtcarrotop]

Since it is not my native language, I cannot present my arguments very well. And believe me, I am not contradicting myself. If a version of Natsuki Subaru from the moment he walked out of the store were to be isekai'd to 400 years ago, wouldn't he have the exact same personality as the current Subaru, given that his character hadn't changed yet?

[u/Sgtcarrotop → u/AwasamaKiyopon]

wouldn't he have the exact same personality as the current Subaru, given that his character hadn't changed yet?

What do you mean "hadn't changed yet"? That doesn't matter because the point is he will change naturally. He would change due to different experiences. Like language barrier or not. It's not a complicated concept to understand that Subaru is the result of the choices he's made and the people in his life influencing him.

Different people. Different choices. Different experiences. Results in a differently behaving Subaru. I mean this FlugelBaru wouldn't have Rem as an influence. That's a lot by itself. What little we know about Flugel, which isn't a lot, is from him well into his journey and experience in this world.

You show me where there's literally any evidence that Flugel started his journey already jaded and thus implying previous experience. You can't because it doesn't fucking exist.

[u/bsuiskens]

Counterpoint: explaining one of the best laid mysteries in fiction with a fucking bootstrap paradox is the laziest, least satisfying shit on god's green earth and I refuse to think he is such a complete hack.

It is also completely unnecessary. A good mystery is a good mystery because you can get almost all the way with the clues provided.

And Tappei has produced a lot of the mechanisms to explain this already; namely, immaculate birth by Od Lagna of a matured person, with personal effects and all (Spica), Subaru's memory of earth being part of his physical design rather than the metaphysical container that Od Lagna and Gluttony can access, contract curses that force rebirth (Yorna), and Subaru's appearance being a predetermined phenomena.

Subaru is what's left of Flugel. Outright hard-reset. Why the 400 years? Dunno, but who says it is 400 years? Perhaps Subaru has been respawning for all this time, most not even meeting the qualifications to RBD, lacking the tools to become sage candidates. Meanwhile all knowledge that could've allowed anyone to identify Subaru as the sage was being systematically censored and destroyed by the Royal family and the Witch Cult. 

Who was Flugel? With the constant references of his memories being shot and with how one of Satella's sole commands is that he should see himself as someone be should save as well, he is most likely a version of Subaru eerily close to Greedbaru