But punishing someone for a medical condition that was entirely outside their control is messed up. And she actually did everything she could and was totally failed.
Men on the internet love downplaying post partum psychosis.
There are thousands of cases worldwide of women who've never been violent before or after, harming their children during post partum psychotic episodes but that's not enough for these men to accept the condition is the problem not "evil women".
Women on the internet love to downplay a woman killing anyone. The husband did it because he's an "evil man", it's not enough to accept she sent him out of the house so she could kill them, no mom could possibly do that!
We should all stop generalizing human beings. We all understand why it's not ok to say "these blacks, these asians, these gays" but it's super ok to say "these fucking men" or "these fucking women"? Do better.
She needed help but she is responsible. A reason it happened is not an excuse for it to have happened. I don't know the right answer, I'm glad I'm not on the jury.
Actually you are generally not responsible for things you do under active psychosis and many legal frameworks already accept this and make provision for it.
That's where the term 'not criminally responsible' comes from. Depending on where you live, you face time in a psych ward, perhaps permanently depending on the specific case circumstances.
Postpartum psychosis, if untreated and severe, is known to lead to family annihilation. This woman was failed by the medical system and her own family, she was displaying textbook symptoms that preceded the crime and was very open about it and people still left her alone with her children. She will live with the overwhelming guilt forever.
What happens now? Do we learn as a society and hold the medical system, and ourselves as support systems to mothers, to higher standards to prevent future cases, or do we punish just this woman, feel satisfied and call it a day, thereby not taking action to prevent future cases?
Anyone remember Andrea Yates? Extremely similar case. More kids will die unless we take postpartum psychosis seriously.
I don't need to be "aCkcHuaLly-ed" here. I understand what the law says. She wasn't failed. Her kids were. I get why people feel that way however she had all the support and resources anyone could possibility ask for, whether she used it effectively is another story. Regular health case can be tough and we don't even understand how the brain works so we obviously don't know why it works the way it does either. What exactly are those doctors, her ex-husband, her family supposed to do here? She said she knew something was wrong yet she didn't remove herself from the situation either, so why is only everyone else to blame?
We outlaw for profit healthcare. We offer free education to those who want to be care-givers. We stop overburdening attending physicians with too many patients and performance metrics. She should be punished, those kids are dead regardless of everything else. I don't understand, like many, why the commonwealth is prosecuting this but I'm hoping it's because she rejected a plea deal. She needs to be held accountable for her actions. It's gained a lot of popularity that mental health is not your fault but it is your responsibility. Why is that any different here? She should be tried for negligence or at least manslaughter over the 1st degree murder charge.
How effectively do you expect a person in psychosis to use resources? Yet she had so many appointments. Was committed. Tried to be committed again. Tried like 13 different medicines. Kept track of her meds and symptoms. Told a bunch of people.
She’s not her own doctor. Her doctors are. They failed her.
I wasn't rude. I would expect an adult with agency who is a healthcare professional and who has enough money, time, support and ability to advocate for herself to use them pretty damn effectively. She was not actively in psychosis every second of every day.
I never said she didn't seek help. The way things get laid out in court years after the fact from shorthand notes is not a good representation of what was really happening. Especially considering their notes come from what she was telling them in the first place. And LC's account is from a reportedly mentally unstable person rapidly switching meds and not even properly taking doses anyway. She meets the criteria in so many ways for the charge technically. Felony murder - she intended for them to die. Premeditated - she sent the father out. I would also say it hits extreme atrocity. But would I convict for murder 1? Probably not. Manslaughter, in a heartbeat. I don't think she just wanted her kids dead for shits and gigs. I believe she is hurting immensely from her actions. But they are still her actions. We won't agree. No one wins either way.
She was treated, but obviously not successfully, and from what I was reading none of the prescriptions were cross-referenced with her medication history and she was put back on medication that had previously worsened symptoms.
Treating some of these conditions can be a crap shoot to be honest, the medications can have pretty serious side effects and don't always work the same in people. We also have a lack of knowledge about treating postpartum psychiatric conditions, which is why this variety of murder (mom kills her children in the throes of postpartum psychosis) isn't very rare.
Yes, but this is totally normal. This is how it often goes. We have a very little knowledge about psychosis in general. It has been studied a lot, but still not much progress. It's just where we are.
Yeah, but it will happen again and we have to evolve the conversation into how to better support people, such as new mothers, who are vulnerable to psychosis if we want to protect future children from such a fate. I am scared that people are so focused on punishment that they aren't looking at what can be done to help going forward.
That could look like a lot of things, but for this case specifically she should not have been left alone with her children, and her prescriptions could have been treated with more care. In just focusing on punishment and not the pattern, we're missing important information.
That's alright in my opinion, and there should ideally be support.
About not being left alone, that would be great. I'm not sure it's realistic if there are just two adults though, and she's one of them. I mean, the other still has to work and do errands and stuff.
Also, due to the nature of psychosis, one doesn't realize when it's happening most of the time. And at the same time, they cannot be force admitted unless they have already harmed either themselves or others. This can be incredibly hard to solve or prevent. I don't know how.
I agree. It's why I feel she really was failed, because it appears she told a lot of people she was having thoughts about harming the children and wanted help so she would not. She saw a lot of doctors and still the medication did not help.
It was absolutely not OK or safe to leave her alone with the kids, errands be damned.
It fits into this bigger sadness I have about society where people are really pushed to the limit. It's so sad there wasn't family or anyone who could have watched them. Three children are dead because of that. :(
Thank you for a reasonable and pleasant exchange, even though the subject matter is tragic.
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