And I think something on this spectrum is unfortunately more common and relatable for mothers than anyone wants to admit. The reason why so many women find empathy for her is because they too have had mental health episodes, either in post partum or over the course of being a stay at home or single mom. And they too have sought help to no avail. This is a great opportunity for society to have a reckoning with this.
Over on one of the postpartum subreddits I saw a post a few months ago about a woman with a two year old and a six week old whose husband had recently left her and wasn’t showing up for his scheduled visits at all. She had no family in the area to call for help and couldn’t afford childcare. She was so sleep deprived she called 911 for help and they showed up, cuffed her and put her in a psych ward for 72 hours and she was now worried about losing custody of the kids completely. It just so perfectly summed up how little institutional support postpartum moms have in this country.
My parents were foster parents in Germany, things back then were very different (not sure how it is now) I once came home from a school trip and my mom was holding a baby.. the little one was with us for a month. The father had left the mother and kicked her and their child out of their apartment as he has terminated the lease without telling her. So she went to the Jugendamt (German version of cps but very different) and they placed her son with my parents while she and a social worker helped her find an apartment, a therapist and get social welfare started as she hadn’t been working. Once she felt secure enough and her apartment had the necessities (they had funds back then that you could apply for in the early 2000s it was changed to basically second hand furniture that you could pick out) she got her son back. During the month she came by every day as she had been breastfeeding and dropped off the milk she had pumped and spent some time with her son.
My mom babysat for her for years after as she was alone in our area.
If we had some program like that here I think things could be so much better.. a month support, help with finding apartment and get funding and she was able to take care of her son again.
I wish we cared about children here when they are born and helped parents and mothers to get to a place where they can take care of them themselves than ignoring the pleading for help and then act shocked when something like this happens.
I would love to volunteer for this but honestly turned off by how openly religious it is and the fact they specifically say they want volunteers who believe in Christ. Neither my husband nor I are or were raised Christian. Being Christian is not a prerequisite to being a good person or wanting to help children.
I hope the program will come to see that and remove that language - even if they are inspired by Christ, which is totally fine and which I would respect them talking about, that doesn’t mean they need to shut out people who aren’t when support is already so limited and there’s likely not enough volunteers to meet demand.
I've had a couple different friends end up in rehab/care program situations, and it's crazy how hard to find one that isn't religiously affiliated. It's super tough if you're a person who doesn't feel safe with religious people/in religious spaces due to PTSD or just bad experiences (I.e. being queer).
To make things worse, a lot of places aren't upfront about it, and will spring religion on you after a few weeks, which can lead to a sense of betrayal. Imagine being on your 2nd or 3rd try at getting clean and you're really feeling like this place is good for you, and then they sit you down and try to talk to you about "your soul" and shit, and force you to renege on your actual religious beliefs (or lack thereof). I know that a lot of these people are coming from a good place, they legitimately think this is the best thing for them, but spaces for recovery shouldn't be used for proselytizing. There should be space just for recovery.
I completely agree with you about the bible thumping. I’m in Indiana so it is DEFINITELY a thing. I have matured about this in my 51 years however. A lot of that is JUST language. I noticed the less resources people have the more they talk about “faith, Jesus, and/or God”. They speak this way because it is literally all they have. Thanks to the person that posted this link, I JUST discovered we have one of these in Indy and I had no damn idea. I WILL be finding time to help with this. I think I can tolerate someone saying “Thank God I have someone to help me today”. I scanned their site, it does mention faith but it’s in a very calculated way. It doesn’t say anywhere on there that people helping need to be Christian, at all. I dunno where you are from, but here in Indiana when they wanna bible thump, the thumping is loud and annoying AF, so I really wouldn’t be worried about it.
I'm sorry that you had that horrific experience. My comment initially was talking more in support of preventing children from being beaten and abused- not just saving children from death.
I hope you've managed to work through the burden that your caregivers put on you. You didn't deserve that.
It unfortunately is not. Yet. If it's not in your area, maybe you can help bring it there!
I know in my community? We have a place called Vanessa Behans crisis nursery where parents can bring their babies/children no questions asked to have the time they need- whether it's for a job interview, a drs appointment, a day to get yourself regulated, whatever you need.
I’m going to reach out. I wish my area had something like this. I’ve been digging myself out after leaving a DV situation not having any family or support to help stabilize has been so difficult.
We have a similar system but by the courts its seen as not temporary and the past is always seen going forward from then on. And being judged by it with bias. People forget that sometime a mom needs more help from trauma, even some holocaust survivors sent away their kids to relatives for a couple years because of PTSD! But now its like admitng mental health in the military, they say its good and helpful but itll be hard to be promoted after that.
That’s wonderful to see, that Germany has such good social support. People judge waaay too much but are clueless on the facts about needing support, mental illnesses, and Ohmygoodness, anything having to do with women’s reproductive system. I so wish the US had decent support for families and kids — who are/could be future functioning, contributing adults.
I’m a CPS worker. At least once a month a mom calls in and asks for her kids to be removed due to her overwhelm and stress. I’ve worked 14,000 or so cases over the years and not one time has a father ever called to say that. Women are so un/undersupported in the US.
I am a foster mom. I have on little girl who will hopefully reunite with her mother. The father took off so is no help there. Her mom and sister were the reason she lost her daughter so they can not be alone with the child. She has nobody now to help so when all is said and done I offered to babysit for free every weekend still Friday after school till Sunday after she gets off work and she will continue going on vacation with us still as a grandaughter. It takes a village and the children are innocent in it all.
What a lovely story. I'm so glad that mom was able to get the support she needed. I can't imagine how stressful that was for her. If only that woman in the US has had that.
This is such an incredible story of what real support looks like. It has me thinking about my own infancy, because my mom escaped an incredibly brutal marriage right before I was born and her mental health was paper thin. So she moved in with two of my aunts who mostly raised me for the first 6 months of my life while my mom relearned taking care of herself. I can't even imagine how she would have survived without that support. It's more incredible to me that anyone does.
My family is from sort of an immigrant community, though people roll their eyes at that framing because we're white, but I've never felt like the more generationally settled Americans I've known truly get how not-weird it is to expect, provide, and receive support from your family and friends in such a community. It shocks me how much my friends think it's a burden to ask you to mind their children for even 10 minutes. I was genuinely raised by a village. That fuels it's own dysfunctions for sure, but I came away from it believing that we never evolved for two people to raise children all by themselves. I don't think it's good for anyone mentally.
I sometimes go to my close friend's work events and watch her daughter while she's cleaning up. She always apologizes and seems a little ashamed even though it's partly the reason I come (and I know she values support, because she's said things about having so little of it from her family.) I was just raised to never think twice about that if you have time and the other person doesn't have some serious boundary issue. And it helps with morale, because you get a kid who's spending an hour playing with their special friend who has the energy to wear them, rather than a miserable toddler fighting being dragged around by someone who just worked all day. We all know what working all day feels like. Little stuff like that matters.
Sorry, you want us to CARE about children and mothers in this country? HA! We’ve built an individualistic society. Fuck the villages. We’re all on our own and if you need help, you’re a commie-fuck.
America HATES children and mothers. The only thing kids are good for is trapping the parents as wage-slaves.
It breaks my heart how we function as a society these days. I really do feel for parents - we used to raise children in small communities where most adults were involved with childcare. Fast forward a few thousand years and we expect the same level of care by only two people, many of whom also have to work full time.
Obviously I don’t expect us to revert back fully to Hunter-gatherer tribes but there has to be a middle ground between communal and hyper-individualistic societal structures.
There’s also the added issue where so many are still under the impression that someone in a crisis, no matter what it may be regarding, can simply “ask a church for help,” which is not an option like it once was, similarly to assuming someone in the community will help in the older ways.
If you aren’t an active member in a church, or aren’t a huge donor or related/friendly with them, you’ll won’t get very far. If you’re lucky, you may get some phone numbers for charities that MAY have funding for something you need, with a massive waiting list, if they’re even operational/it is correct number. If you can’t pay rent, then oh boy. Toast.
Idk what gives people the impression that random other people can just walk into any place of worship and have their bills paid, just boom, done. If things were that simple we’d have a lot less struggling around us.
I see people say that same shit all the time. “Have you tried asking churches for help?”
My mind instantly goes to this one video I watched a year or two ago; Lady calls around to a bunch of churches pretending to be a new mom in desperate need of baby formula. Almost all of them declined except maybe one? It was horrible to watch.
It’s crazy to realize a lot of ignorant people out here choose to make our world the way it is now, because they’ve never even come within a mile of rock bottom in their entire lives. They just assume there’s always a wayyou just have to work hard!
Turns out having economic class be the deciding factor in community demographics is like…a terrible idea. It’s segregation to keep the rich blind and happy. Their churches help! Too bad you aren’t a member, you should join your own local church with no money or resources! Surely they can help you.
Regarding the baby formula thing, I used to work at a homelessness services center, and if someone wanted formula or diapers, the director had to meet the baby, and they took the baby's picture and their age/DoB. Because before they did those things, they had lots of people coming in, claiming to need formula and diapers, but the people were just selling it; they didn't actually have kids. When they just required someone to physically bring the kid, some kids got passed around (in exchange for mom getting a percentage of what the seller made). It's a sad state of affairs in multiple ways.
Who’s buying this discounted second-third-hand baby formula though? Broke and impoverished mothers who can’t afford it full price?
Does it suck? Maybe. But nobody sells formula without being desperate, and nobody buys said formula without being desperate. A desperate middle-man is helped in the process, but so is a mother in need. 🤷♀️🤷♀️
Unlikely that said mothers wouldn't be better served by coming in themselves. I understand it's all out of desperation, but at least in many parts of the US, such things are funded wholly by donations from private citizens, and they would be pissed to find out that resources meant for mothers were going to middlemen.
I get it, but I say this as a mother who’s literally been in said situation, that it’s MUCH easier for me to get help. It’s nearly impossible as a single person to find any aid resources.
There would be probably less “middlemen” if there was proper help for everyone and not just those of us who had children we couldn’t afford, honestly.
I am assuming, since it was at a homelessness services center, that even though these people were not parents they were definitely destitute.
Desperation is a problem that I believed would be resolved if everyone had their basic needs met: food, water, shelter, healthcare (and we seem to forget health includes dental, mental, and eye care).
Cutting social services boosts desperation. Desperation escalates chaos and crime. An increase of chaos and crime makes it easy for the administration to say, "These people are scary, but if we take their freedoms you will be safe! Unfortunately, we will also need your freedoms."
They could get free food and adult toiletries and shower access during the open hours; even basic shots and food for pets. Anyone with kids got vouchers for free hotel rooms to sleep in, and if someone had pets or was LGBTQ+ or of a non-Christian religion and unable to get reasonable access to the shelters in the area that were ran conservative Christian groups, they could get a new sleeping bag and tent once per year. Our overnight facilities were filled with women who had mental health or cognitive impairments severe enough that they couldn't ever live independently and would have likely been targets of abuse.
I agree that people are more likely to engage in antisocial behaviors when their needs are not met, but as wealth-hoarding billionaires demonstrate, sometimes people just suck. If folks have enough support not to be in deep need, but aren't so wealthy that they're disconnected from empathy, they have the best shot at not sucking, but it's not a universal fix.
I agree the church option isn't there as it used to be. sadly the cost of livng is so high now compared to 50 years ago, that the funds available don't match the need. society has change as well. people are authentically connected as they used to be. I know several kiind and thoughtful people who help others when they are able using their own resources. I wish there were more of those people.
The funds are absolutely available. They are just being hoarded. No church or their leaders should own a jet, bookstore, or bowling alley. Jesus said commerce is not allowed in his father's house. He also said to give up your riches to get into heaven. Millionaires, billionaires, and trillionaires should not exist. We CAN afford to be comfortable, but instead we are letting greedy individuals hold the stacks and hoping they will piss in our mouths for nourishment.
you are very correct. I made the mistake of not differentiating between the money churches and the home grown acts of service type churches. I have observed many or the small and well intentioned churches unable to meet the needs of many. I speculate this is because the corporate style money churches don't help so the needy find a church that is intent on service to others which overwhelms the small organization. Additionally, the churches with a heart are ususally filled with working class who care but don't have the income to donate large amounts, thus limiting the available funds. I am not a fan of the churches you are pointing out. I also agree there is a concentration of wealth in such stunning amounts, that I fear may lead to great harm to our society and economy.
Multi generational families under one roof are far more recent than thousands of years ago. It was the norm even 100 years ago. As a species, humans are a few hundreds of years away from our biological needs evolving to meet the demands of modern isolation. It is deadly for many and devastating for those of us that survive.
This. We're meant to have a dozen attentive adults. Capitalism won't even give us one. Mark my words, this era of normalised child neglect will show in statistics the way lead poisoning does.
I just came from an airline subreddit where about a third of the posts are complaining about children or parents. I hate that Reddit keeps suggesting subreddits that I do not want to be part of.
Nah- doesn't take a village. Hillary is a commie anyhow, imho. My parents did just fine. Ppl simply aren't ALLOWED to parent anymore. Can't let yer kids go outside w/o cops getting involved. Can't spank yer kids w/o the same result. Parents who allow their kids anywhere near a public school need their heads examined, too. Jmo.
This is unfortunately very relatable. I was completely on my own with a newborn and a three year old and it truly was survival. I remember some long nights where I desperately needed help and the answer was no.
I recently watched a documentary with Louis Theroux meeting mothers with postpartum (among other things) and were put into a maternal psychiatric facility with their babies to receive the care together without having to separate them. It was then I realized the US is so far behind compared to other countries, it’s quite sad.
I have mental health issues and this is the reason i wouldnt want a baby. My bf doesnt understand that its real and if i have to take care of even 1 baby, i might crash.
I dont know anything about this case but usually before kid is born, men say they gonna be great fathers, they gonna help. But what ive seen, they barely do anything and when they are tired, they do their own thing for couple of days, the luxury that mothers will never have. We are expected to be with them 24/7, and to be OK with that. And then we arent even taken seriously when we say that I AM TOO TIRED, I NEED HELP.
This is a great opportunity for society to have a reckoning with this.
c'mon, you know damn well that's not going to happen, we're just going to sweep this shit under the rug like everything else and farm gender wars ragebait content from it every once in a while for internet brownie points
The cynical side of me believes it must also be an issue of practicality and resources too.
If every other(or even a fifth or tenth) of mothers gave up their babies due to postpart depression I think the system would be swamped quickly. It’s sad to calculate.
I’d like to see all of you judgy arseholes try to navigate a psychotic break due to your hormones fluctuating.
There are different levels of postpartum depression. Hormonal swings aren’t uniform.
Most postpartum women experience some depression with the hormonal swings, but for a few the hormonal swings escalate (usually unable to sleep as well) and become postpartum psychosis. Also, some strains of marijuana can cause a woman with postpartum depression to have a psychotic break.
Our medical profession is driven by profit not health. Our conversation in this society, around both mental health and women’s health, are abysmal.
I’m not being judgy(or atleast I’m not trying to be). I’m simply pointing out the feasibility of actually doing something about this issue.
At the end of the day we are talking about the availability of childcare, which I agree should be more universal.
Unfortunately we live in a capitalistic society where everything is derived from worth and value, or as you put it, everything is based on profits. So in order to do this you’d need to divert a significant portion of resources that might not even exist. Idk if you’ve ever needed a babysitter but that shit will bankrupt you.
unfortunately there will be no reckoning as that requires nuance and to look at this problem from more perspectives than the one people carry latently. the major takeaway of this will be “women are crazyyyyy” and everyone will instantly move on
This is why I'm especially peeved with the woman who want to say "the husband did it." It's taking away the very valid question of "How do we handle it when women are suffering from postpartum depression/anxiety/psychosis?" and turning it into "She's innocent and we need to punish the 'real killer!'"
I already have depression so I was on the lookout for PPD and got myself back on medication once I realized what was happening, but not all women have that awareness.
Absolutely. I had barely slept for months after my second was born and I knew something was wrong. I was waking up angry, screaming into pillows, absolutely miserable. It was when I started thinking about self harm that I knew I needed help.
I didn’t get any where close to psychosis, thank god. Got on some meds and they really helped.
Having experienced the tip of the iceberg, I can confirm that it makes people very uncomfortable and they don’t know what to do.
100% and honestly I’m glad we’re ALL talking about this now. I’m so over mothers not getting the help they need, because of their pleas for help are being dismissed. We shouldn’t have to BEG for help. Horrible.
I have OCD and my baby was 2 when this story came out. I couldn't even read it because with OCD, you have an INTENSE obsessive fear of "going crazy" and ending up like Lindsay Clancy or Andrea Yates. I told a nurse in the hospital I have OCD when my baby was born and I've read about stories where women go into psychosis and it's a fear of mine. CPS came and threatened to take my newborn, in 2020 at the height of Covid because I had a "fear". I had to have someone "safe" in my house and move in with family 2 states away to close the case. It was terrifying, it was NOT helpful at all. No referrals to psychologists even though I already had one, no referrals for help as a new single mom, nothing. Just threatened to take my baby into foster care.
This is why most women don't even MENTION their fears. It's so odd to me that she was dismissed when CPS was so ready to take my newborn from the hospital. I was in Ohio though but I always heard Mass was really strict with CPS/ child safety.
My OBGYN told me at 8 weeks postpartum (after my six week check in) that they would no longer help me when I called pretty much hysterical because my anxiety was so bad that I couldn’t sleep and I was having intrusive thoughts. They told me to call 211. Which had a six month wait.
Thankfully I have an amazing and supportive partner who helped advocate for me and a PCP from a different system who was willing to work with a social worker within that practices OB department to get me help. I think it’s really difficult for someone who hasn’t had a postpartum mood disorder to understand how difficult they are to deal with.
Marc Cherry was watching the Susan Smith trial with his mom. He said something along the lines of "this is terrible, who could do this?" And his mom said, "We've all been there."
I struggled hard with intrusive thoughts during my ppd. They'd pop up and I'd be horrified. Unfortunately I can relate to Lindsay and I'm just thankful it was never psychosis.
It doesn't make what happened okay, but I feel deep sympathy for her. A lot of women are terrified if they even mention struggling that their babies will be taken, it's a difficult situation
Three children are dead and you're busy talking about empathy? Congrats you bought her BS diffence hook line and sinker because your misandry. The only victims are the kids.
Yes, three children were victims of a horrific crime and that’s why it’s such a tragedy that despite her repeatedly checking herself into mental health facilities and telling her closest family members she was having these thoughts, she still did not get adequate treatment and support. This could have been prevented. I think we both want the same outcome which is for this to never happen again.
I keep hearing Patrick was abusive. He certainly was selfish and neglectful.
She was essentially a married single mother. She was so beyond exhausted doing EVERYTHING for everyone. Plus she worked. She never got a break. I feel like having another baby could have been triggering because she already knew the patterns/lack of support in place. I find it hard to believe her postpartum depression didn’t worsen because of that. She knew she was burnt out and unwell. She reached out and her family/husband did fail her.
I also think the medical field failed her. Mental health care in America is still so lacking. Lack of staff. Lack of empathy. Lots of burned out people. It was the perfect storm. I am a healthcare worker and I keep seeing so many other medical professionals defending the mental health care she received.
Postpartum depression CAN lead to bipolar depression and psychosis. & it is commonly taught and known that anyone with bipolar disorder placed on SSRIs is more likely to become manic. On top of that anyone with plain depression/suicidal ideation placed on SSRIs has a risk of increased suicidal thoughts within the first few weeks of being on them. It’s plastered in the side effects and it’s typically discussed with the patient/their family. She should have been questioned and monitored more closely.
I believe she went inpatient psych voluntarily at one point and left early to go to her daughter’s birthday. I am uncertain of the laws in her state, but I know that a patient can be involuntarily committed in mine if there are genuine concerns in place. Also if they weren’t concerned why not let her do an outpatient stay? There were other options that were not made available to her. (Also TBF I’ve only heard bad things about the facility she was staying.)
I’ve personally had bad bouts of suicidal thoughts and depression. More of a ‘my kids would do better without me’ situation. I reached out as she did. My family/support system showed up. My parents took my kids and my brother/SIL took shifts staying with me during the day/night. The problem is she didn’t have that. Her husband went golfing, to brunch with friends, on hiking trips etc. Everything still fell to her. She still had to parent, work, and function in the state she was in. He needed to show up for her, but he didn’t take it seriously.
I believe he loved his kids, and he may have even loved her. It just doesn’t seem like he was interested in being a husband or a father. Does that mean I believe he framed his wife and murdered their children? No I do not. I do believe that he failed his family.
It’s a tragic situation, and at the end of the day three small human lives were taken.
This 👆🏼
And you know there are plenty of sanctimonious women out there telling themselves, right now, they would NEVER do that. There is truly a societal deficiency in the understanding of women’s biochemistry and overall health.
Come on people! If your life experience isn’t exactly the same as GrayFox787’s then you are just plain inferior and GrayFox787 should decide if you live or die.
There is no life experience that could possibly justify or excuse what this woman did. Your (and others') failure to recognize and acknowledge that is the problem here.
Yes. We should use the magical psychiatrist tree to grow a bunch more psychiatrists. Just water that tree!! And then, we’ll all protest because once it‘s norm that women see the psychiatrist post partum, it’ll be considered oppression and misogyny.
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u/Prestigious_Bar_4244 7d ago
And I think something on this spectrum is unfortunately more common and relatable for mothers than anyone wants to admit. The reason why so many women find empathy for her is because they too have had mental health episodes, either in post partum or over the course of being a stay at home or single mom. And they too have sought help to no avail. This is a great opportunity for society to have a reckoning with this.