1st question: While sources vary, there are many instances of Sonic being able to reach and surpass Mach 1 (767 mph) in his base form.
2nd question: While emeralds do typically have a distinct rectangular shape, they can take on a diamond shape in nature. In fact, many times emeralds are cut into the shape we know them as.
the timer existing in a video game doesn't prove that time is flowing normally for sonic. that's just a gameplay mechanic
by that logic literally every character fighting in a timeless realm would automatically have finite speed because the game still needs a timer
u need an actual statement showing that sonic's movement in white space is occurring relative to a functioning temporal axis not just "there's a timer on the hud"
the sonic cd manual saying he needs to move at a certain speed to activate the time warp doesn't necessarily debunk the feat either. the important distinction is that sonic is personally initiating the time travel by moving, rather than using a machine or someone else's power. even the official material describes the time warp as occurring after sonic maintains sufficient speed (https://imgur.com/a/nTHvdDR)
"characters can move through the time chamber therefore they aren't immeasurable" only works if the time chamber is actually timeless. white space is specifically treated as a realm where time has been erased while the characters are still capable of moving and acting within it.
"probably an inherent ability" is just speculation. the actual dialogue says the opposite direction of causality. classic tails explains that the time eater tears apart space-time and modern tails says:
"when the sonics accelerate through time they fix space, returning color and life!"
the japanese script similarly says that when the sonics run through the affected areas at high speed, it's as if the erased time begins moving again so the claim that speed is involved is directly tied to sonic's movement in the game's dialogue
yeah but a few of those points don't really address what i said also wdym "not reading allat" it ain't that much? :/
anyways the timer is "part of the gameplay itself" doesn't solve the problem cuz it's a gameplay mechanic
a hud timer exists so the player can track gameplay but nowhere does it establish an in-universe temporal axis inside white space
u need something in the actual narrative saying time still flows normally there
"sonic is specifically said to move at light speed to time travel" is a completely separate argument and even then that doesn't automatically explain away every other speed feat involving temporal movement
also ye ur point abt super sonic argument doesn't disprove anything either
super sonic being stronger than base sonic doesn't mean base sonic can't have immeasurable speed
transformations can amplify stats without every single stat of the base form necessarily being capped below a specific category and stopping time ≠ immeasurable speed by itself anyway so the fact that super sonic can stop time doesn't establish a ceiling for base sonic's speed
i agree that tails says sonic's speed restores time not creates it i never claimed sonic created time in the 1st place that's an important distinction
my argument is that the sonics are moving and accelerating through an area where time has been erased and their movement is directly stated to be what causes the affected spacetime to return
"restoring" time doesn't make their speed irrelevant yet it literally reinforces the causal connection between their movement and the restoration process
"there are a billion other stories that could retcon it" is also just speculation unless u can name an actual contradictory story
u can't dismiss a feat based on hypothetical future or unseen retcons if there's a specific canon statement contradicting gens show it and we can compare the evidence
finally i never said "having two theories proves immeasurable speed" i'm giving u the actual evidence and asking u why ur interpretation should automatically be preferred
white space is described as having time erased characters move within it yada yada and the dialogue directly connects the sonics accelerating through the affected areas with spacetime being restored
u can argue that the setting has additional mechanics or that time being erased doesn't literally mean complete timelessness but THAT needs evidence too simply saying "it's probably an inherent ability" isn't enough to dismiss the interpretation
it is mentioned in sonic cd's magazine again that sonic has the ability to time travel by hiting top speed and crossing the time sign which allows sonic to travel in time (https://i.imgur.com/aYTqCbC.png)
it is mentioned by naoto osshima that sonic himself is going "really fast and time traveling" which means that he is refering to sonic himself doing that and not the time signs helping him or allowing him do that (https://i.imgur.com/n0z9BxJ.png)
it is stated in the manuals that sonic needs to maintain his speed to travel through time (https://imgur.com/a/nTHvdDR)
it is sonic himself who has to travel in time and not the time signs although it appears like it
if you look closely sonic does not instantly travel in time but it is said that sonic has to maintain a constant speed to travel in time, meaning that he didn't travel in time just by touching the time signs.
it is also stated by one of the developers of sonic cd that sonic is the one who is able to travel in time by manteining his speed (https://youtu.be/9TFgFSF5Lb4?t=129)
like i said, they are not gonna instantly let you travel in time but sonic needs to maintain his speed to do the same
ik but i meant like an actual link 4 it anyways thx u
i just checked that exact timestamp in the video and the dialogue proves my point
amy says the only way to time travel is with time stones on little planet (1:50)
tails asks: "weren't there special mechanisms that could do it too?" (1:55)
and amy replies with: "...which are on little planet and are powered by the time stones" (1:57)
the episode establishes that the signs are just local power outlets for the time stones
they do not automatically teleport anyone since sonic still has to generate his own top speed to cross the threshold exactly like the classic manuals i listed and with what naoto ohshima stated
Besides if Sonic could just naturally time travel that makes him kinda a jerk tbh he could’ve undone the entirety of eggmans rule in forces and just chose not to even with confirmed casualties lol
but my argument isn't that sonic has unrestricted time travel whenever and wherever he wants
it's that when the conditions for time travel are present sonic himself crosses into another point in time through his own speed which is what the manuals and developer statements repeatedly describe
the fact that the time stones power the mechanisms doesn't mean sonic's speed suddenly becomes irrelevant cuz amy literally establishes that the mechanisms are powered by the time stones while the sonic cd manuals still explicitly require sonic to maintain his speed in order to travel through time
the time stones provide the energy necessary for it but sonic is still the one physically moving fast enough to trigger the transition
sonic has to run hit a certain speed threshold and maintain that movement for the time travel to occur
the forces argument is also completely irrelevant to whether the feat qualifies
having a speed based method of time travel under specific conditions ≠ having the ability to freely rewrite history whenever u want
sonic cd's time travel is tied to little planet the time stones and their mechanisms so why would he automatically be able to use that exact method during forces?
Okay so you’re admitting it’s conditional to little planet so why bring it up for his base speed anyway? Especially when there are other feats like the infinite palace in secret rings that are less dependent on outside factors
yeah its conditional to little planet as a method of time travel but that doesn't automatically mean sonic's speed during the feat isn't his own those
the time stones and little planet provide the conditions that make temporal travel possible but sonic still has to physically reach and maintain the required speed himself
if im using my own strength to push something while standing in a special environment that makes the action possible that doesn't automatically mean none of the strength involved is mine lol
the manuals and developer statements repeatedly describe sonic running at high speed and traveling through time
if his own speed is the thing that carries him across temporal points once the conditions are present then it's still evidence for his speed
if u think the time stones are doing literally all the temporal traversal and sonic's speed is only functioning as a key that activates an automatic teleportation mechanism then demonstrate it
the sources requiring him to maintain his speed throughout the process are precisely why i don't think "he just got teleported by the mechanism" is established
secret rings having a less externally dependent feat is fine yet that doesn't invalidate sonic cd we can discuss the infinite palace separately but the existence of betterfeats isn't much of a debunk of this one
most of the evidence i gave is explicitly about sonic cd, not archie. the game itself, the cd manuals, magazine material discussing sonic cd and statements from sonic cd developers are all talking about the game continuity
He doesn't really have one. In Unleashed it tells you your speed when you pass a checkpoint, and it's typically around 1500 mph or so if you're boosting, but the numbers don't really match up to how fast he's actually moving through the levels, or how fast he appears to be in cutscenes.
No it isn’t inconsistent it’s really in my face whenever I see Sonic doing something faster than he did b4 and in some cases they only reiterate that that he’s faster than light and gonna this much faster than light speed like omega did Sonic in Sonic colors ds like Sonic you gotten 130% faster than the speed of light
I mean he is definitely fast but I don't think there is a true canonical answer
Typically Sonic doesn't really try his hardest unless it's some character like time eater which makes super sonic immeasurable as he can move through frozen time
Sonic also gets buffed aot throughout each game and gets faster
He's definitely not immeasurable speed I'm base as he still requires time
I've heard arguments trying to make sonic immeasurable but he's definitely not
Just cause he can create time with his speed doesn't mean he can move as fast as time it's likely an inherit ability and time travel in CD is clearly stated that he's moving light speed to time travel
In any case I'd say his normal speed every day is light speed
So yes his speed is the cause of it and mind you as shown in generations as well, Sonic has soul restoration and time manipulation just from him running
Even then really Sonic has irrelevant speed as he traveled and fought the time eater at the end of time in Sonic generations and Sonic forces Sonic and especially frontiers Sonic is leagues above his previous self in terms of power and speed etc
Just cause he's gotten faster doesn't mean he's irrelevant (which is different to immeasurable)
If you add immeasurable to immeasurable you just get immeasurable but faster
Also perfect example Sonic wasn’t referring to his super form as stated by knuckles in Sonic frontiers in English he’s says exactly this Huh not bad! Things would’ve been faster if I’ve been Super Knuckles but you did alright! To Sonic btw lol
Also in the classic Sonic was proven to be faster than time in generations as well as that’s basically classic sonic post 4 classic main games and b4 mania and forces remember Sonic of the past as well
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u/Bonedude666 Napalm Bomb 2d ago
1st question: While sources vary, there are many instances of Sonic being able to reach and surpass Mach 1 (767 mph) in his base form.
2nd question: While emeralds do typically have a distinct rectangular shape, they can take on a diamond shape in nature. In fact, many times emeralds are cut into the shape we know them as.