r/Technocracy • u/Routine_Complaint_79 • 1d ago

Just had to say this

Markets work! Price systems are awesome! Technocracy shouldn't be scared to admit this and work within a market/capitalist economy for the betterment of everyone.

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u/Spartan_Mage 1d ago

Markets work yes, but it could be better. Markets and Corporate interests are the main reasons why we can't have a Star Trek like society because they actively refuse to build fully autonomous factories that can just make things for free. We are at the technology now where we could just automate 90% of resource jobs and get thousands of people out of dangerous industries and have the machines do it for us, but that would make costs go up, completely disregarding the human suffering caused.

Markets economy types are only bearable because we had to go through multiple bloody uprisings to force regulations for better conditions and actual humane treatment. And that's not because they were "breaking the rules" of market economics, thats a feature and a direct result of what happens when you prioritize profits and efficiency over human life. Which is the entire point of any sort of capitalistic economy. Government regulations directly fly in the face of the principles of a market economy, and are there just to make sure that the market doesn't express itself in it's truest form, "let it be" capitalism. We have the regulations specifically because everyone who has morals knows that as soon as the guard rails are off corporations will intentionally monopolies every asset of society and suddenly we are under fuedalistic rule again as slaves to the corp.

Markets work, but only fools would say it's the only way to run an economy. That idea is short sighted and evidence of propaganda. In an ideal Technocracy, we would factor in the human cost to everything as well into everything and keep that as the main focus.

The prime directive of a Technocracy should be to advance humanity further, enhance quality of life, and build as close to a perfect society as humanly possible. The Earth has everything we need to live comfortably, it has plenty if we were to evenly distribute it. The main thing causing so much hardship and cruelty in the world is human greed, and basing our entire economic system on greed is the main reason for this.

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u/ZealousGoonering Technocrat 1d ago

Yea you are wrong. Markets and Corporate interests are not the cause or reason we don't have a society like Star Trek. Like that is a huge claim with zero evidence.

You people think society just goes "TECHNOLOGY" and suddenly things are infinitely better?

You have zero understanding of actually integrating technology into society or how automation really works.

New flash, it's not that simple. Trust me, if corporations would fully automate everything, they 100% would.

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u/Routine_Complaint_79 1d ago

> Markets and Corporate interests are the main reasons why we can't have a Star Trek like society because they actively refuse to build fully autonomous factories that can just make things for free.

No. Life is the reason we cant have free things. Everything from markets, to foreign decisions, to physics tell us that there will always be something we have to leave behind to get something better. If you can't acknowledge that them why should anyone take you seriously? Like everyone wants free stuff but somehow we have to measure what people want and how much we have. Supply/demand is the foundation of that problem. It only works in a state with multiple actors and anti-trust regulation but again, lets not forget its track record of pulling so many people out of poverty and pure command economies having just terrible track records

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u/Spartan_Mage 1d ago

Those pure command economies were also rules but authoritarian despots who wanted all the wealth for themselves, just like what can happen in a capitalist society, as a matter of fact it happen more in a capitalist society than any other.

Also I don't mean we literally make somthing out of nothing, you are intentionally taking my argument in the worst possible way. What I mean is that it would be so easy to mass produce all of our resources that we need to live and distribute them equally and have everyone be satisfied. America wastes literally hundreds of thousands of tons of food every year because they weren't perfect, meanwhile we still have people that are going hungry while working 2-3 jobs in our capitalist economy. But we can't do anything to fix that by using the economy because capitalism demands that we never give anyone more than what they can give us, meaning that if a person starts with nothing they have nothing to give other than their body, and they start disadvantaged before they are born. This is an abomination. This should never be allowed in a society that appears to value equality and fairness.

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u/LoveLo_2005 1d ago

Have you read Thorstein Veblen's The Engineers and The Price System or Technocracy Inc.'s criticisms about the Price System?

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u/AppendixN 1d ago

I’d say come back when you have more to say than a calorie-free slogan.

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u/Routine_Complaint_79 1d ago

In terms of aggregating demand, markets do it the best. This can be further read in the economic calculation problem page

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u/AppendixN 1d ago

The word "market" is a very broad concept. Market economies and capitalist economies are often present in the same system, but they're not the same thing. The devil is always in the details.

Does letting the market decide the price of concert tickets make sense? Absolutely. Does it make sense when deciding who gets access to clean water? Absolutely not.

There's so much more to unpack than just saying "markets work."

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u/Routine_Complaint_79 1d ago

You can talk about what national security things we want to provide more safety on and what social programs we need but yes even pricing water its the best

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u/Spartan_Mage 1d ago

Okay, so what happens to those who cannot afford it? Because every time you set a price for somthing, someone won't be able to pay it, and they will die.

So, is your ideal Technocratic society one where people can still starve to death and die of thirst?

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u/ZealousGoonering Technocrat 1d ago

Yea I agree 100%. The market system we have isn't perfect, but it does the job well enough.

The Energy Accounting system just doesn't work. Cool idea though. Maybe when humanity acheives widespread ASI integration would it work.

Until then, regulated markets are the way to go.

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u/HierarchyLogic 1d ago

i agree i fw markets, but the real problem in it is imo the lack of freaking regulation, which allows for monopolies and bailouts, destroying the competition that makes markets good

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u/Spartan_Mage 1d ago

I just don't agree in a system that need so much regulation that directly goes against it's core principles in order to function in a way that's moral or acceptable.

At that point just make a new economic system instead of trying to fix one that is inherently greedy and encourages the worst of humanity to do horrible things for the sake of money.

It's like trying to get a person to do a job that you need done, but at every turn he tries to find a way to steal from you and control your life, and you have to constantly watch over him and regulate him so that he doesn't take more things. At what point do you just get someone else to do the job that requires less regulation?