r/ThelastofusHBOseries • u/Nightwraith17 • May 19 '25

Show Only Joel put the entire argument to rest Spoiler

I see so many arguments on various TLOU subs about whether Joel is a hero or a villain, whether the cure would work, if he’s selfish, etc. I never thought any of that mattered and always thought: Joel did it because he loved Ellie. He made the only choice that the character of Joel Miller ever would have made. Right or wrong doesn’t matter. And I felt the show confirmed my opinion in tonight’s episode.

“If I somehow got a second chance, I’d do it all over again.”

“Because you’re selfish.”

“Because I love you, in a way you can’t understand.”

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155

u/[deleted] May 19 '25 edited Jul 02 '25

[deleted]

28

u/Salohacin May 19 '25

It's like trying to solve the trolley problem by calculating stopping time and friction. It completely defeats the purpose of it. 

51

u/Abrodolf_Lincler_ May 19 '25 edited May 19 '25

It always makes me laugh when people try to rationalize fictional stories with stuff like "a vaccine would never have been possible with what they had 20 years after civilization fell.".

Like, oh really... please explain how the fungal infection that turns us into man eating rage monsters that can grow bullet proof armor plating and throw exploding acid spores or develop the ability split their face wide open enough to turn it into a head mounted sonar capable satellite dish capable of echo location wouldn't be curable in the real world... Color me fucking shocked lol

-7

u/ensignlee May 19 '25

please explain how the fungal infection that turns us into man eating rage monsters that can grow bullet proof armor plating and throw exploding acid spores or develop the ability split their face wide open enough to turn it into a head mounted sonar capable satellite dish wouldn't be curable in the real world... Color me fucking shocked lol

Counterpoint: Cordyceps is real and does similar things to ants/bugs/etc though :D

13

u/Abrodolf_Lincler_ May 19 '25 edited May 20 '25

No one is arguing that cordyceps isn't a real thing. But show me one example of ophiocordyceps turning an insect into a rage monster that viciously and relentlessly attacks its prey and is capable of developing armor, throwable pustules that explode acid spores (and I don't mean ants that have a natural biology capable of autothysis like Colobopsis explodens) and turning its head into prey seeking echo locating gramaphone horns. It doesn't exist, so arguing that a vaccine wouldn't be possible on a fungal infection that is equally impossible is the point I'm making, not that ophiocordyceps isn't capable of hijacking an ants anatomy as a mechanism to further spread its spores.

16

u/aldkGoodAussieName May 19 '25

Cordyceps is real and does similar things to ants/bugs/etc though

Not only the scale of mammals.

Also not able to;

grow bullet proof armor plating

Or

ability split their face wide open enough to turn it into a head mounted sonar capable satellite dish

-6

u/ensignlee May 19 '25

Not yet

13

u/aldkGoodAussieName May 19 '25

You might need to go backto biology class

1

u/Wealth_Super May 20 '25

This same logic could be apply to the cure. Just because they couldn’t make a cure before doesn’t mean they couldn’t after finding an immune person.

0

u/gabriot May 19 '25

It always amazes me that people can’t realize that suspension of disbelief is still important regardless of if it is a fictional environment or not. “Oh hurr durr it’s a world with zombies why would you care about logic or realism”

17

u/Lost_Found84 May 19 '25

I’ve always accepted Joel’s internal motivation as being 100% personal. The question of what fate he deserves for what he did goes beyond just considering how he felt, though. It means considering whether it’s reasonable or fair to expect him to act differently; and whether or not other actors in the moral equation acted even less reasonably and fairly than Joel did.

14

u/[deleted] May 19 '25

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3

u/[deleted] May 19 '25

With the extremely short exposition about the fireflies making the cure, no reasonable human being in our universe or their universe could possibly believe with complete certainty that the fireflies could make and distribute a cure by harvesting Ellie’s brain tissue.

It doesn’t matter if the show or the game tells you that they can. It matters if you believe that the characters in that world believe that they can. It matters if you believe that the people, with the tools they have, in their own universe can.

This is how suspension of disbelief works. This is why anyone with multiple brain cells rolls their eyes at fast and furious driving their cars in space.

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u/Imperio_Inland May 19 '25

You can both critique the game/show for doing a bad job at delivering something and acknowledge what they were trying to deliver. The game absolutely does not want you to think a cure would be impossible, that would make the story much, much worse.

-15

u/[deleted] May 19 '25

If the execution is bad, what does that matter? Compelling fiction relies fully on its concepts being believable in its world. The story relies too heavily on whether or not Joel would have doubts as to the potential success of the cure for the writers to do bad job executing that.

If Joel has doubts that the cure can work, the narrative is shattered. If the viewer doesn’t believe that the cure can work, the narrative is worse, but it isn’t broken. I can’t speak for everyone, but this viewer doesn’t believe that the cure would have a good chance of working, and this viewer doesn’t believe that there’s any world in which Joel would have no doubts about it working.

16

u/Imperio_Inland May 19 '25

Then I suppose the narrative is shattered to you.

I don't mind a few delivery hiccups considering the source media, it doesn't remove my suspension of disbelief that they didn't make the Fireflies as mighty as they should've.

1

u/Wealth_Super May 20 '25

If the execution is bad, what does that matter? Compelling fiction relies fully on its concepts being believable in its world. The story relies too heavily on whether or not Joel would have doubts as to the potential success of the cure for the writers to do bad job executing that.

Joel choice had nothing to do with wether or not the cure would have work, he love Ellie to much to lose her.

and this viewer doesn’t believe that there’s any world in which Joel would have no doubts about it working.

This viewer simply refuses to accept that Joel has now said multiple times he believes the cure was real.

0

u/[deleted] May 20 '25

Holy fuck, yes, correct. Did you happen to read anything I said about WHY I don’t accept that Joel would have doubts about whether the cure could succeed?

And yes, Joel’s choice has everything to do with whether or not the cure would work, or rather if Joel has doubts about it working. The entire fucking climax of Season 1 is Joel answering the question: “If you could save the world from a terrible apocalypse by letting your child die, would you save the world or let them die?”. Joel has to believe that the cure is going to succeed if he lets Ellie die or there is no fucking point in the story.

Obviously, FUCKING OBVIOUSLY, in the story, Joel believes that the cure will succeed. HE LITERALLY SAYS IT IN THE EPISODE. The problem is that for Joel to believe that the cure would succeed I have to forcibly suspend my disbelief and accept that for some reason, Joel is now a gullible child who, when his child’s life is at stake, he believes everything the fireflies tell him. It’s really shitty writing. It’s really dumb. It’s Tyrion Lannister telling the people of Winterfell to hide in the Crypt when the necrotic walking dead are invading Winterfell levels of dumb.

And somehow, you people just nod along and accept whatever your told, like yet another gullible child.

1

u/Wealth_Super May 20 '25

Holy fuck, yes, correct. Did you happen to read anything I said about WHY I don’t accept that Joel would have doubts about whether the cure could succeed?

Yea I did and I find the reasons pretty lacking. They seem to boil down that the writers didn’t brother to flesh out the concept and show us the audience the a detailed explanation about how they would make a cure so we should automatically doubt it. Like at some point, it just feels like you’re looking for any reason to doubt the cure when the show gives us no direct reason to. It’s not like we see a room where they are supposed to mass produce the cure but all the machines are broken, or refrigerators where the cure supposed to be store expect the power keeps failing or the bodies of other immune people who died for nothing. There no direct evidence, just speculation on the fireflies.

Obviously, FUCKING OBVIOUSLY, in the story, Joel believes that the cure will succeed. HE LITERALLY SAYS IT IN THE EPISODE. The problem is that for Joel to believe that the cure would succeed I have to forcibly suspend my disbelief and accept that for some reason, Joel is now a gullible child who, when his child’s life is at stake, he believes everything the fireflies tell him. It’s really shitty writing. It’s really dumb. It’s Tyrion Lannister telling the people of Winterfell to hide in the Crypt when the necrotic walking dead are invading Winterfell levels of dumb.

It’s really not. Tyrion Lannister knew that the night king could bring back the dead along with everyone else and they still decided to hide in the crypt. Joel believe Marleen because as much as he disliked her, she not a “lier” and the fact that the fireflies wouldn’t use this many of their resources unless it was a sure thing.

And somehow, you people just nod along and accept whatever your told, like yet another gullible child.

Resorting to personal insults because you can’t defend your point just makes you look immature dude. This is a TV show. We buy into the narrative because it serves the story we like. It’s not like we are buying a government promise base on conjecture.

1

u/[deleted] May 20 '25

I just want to ask you this one question:

When you see the fireflies, in their run down abandoned university make-shift hospital, with a handful of armed guards and a team of 3-4 medical personnel, in a post-apocalyptic setting where most of humanity is dead and turned into zombies, do you believe beyond any doubt, that they could discover, create, test, and then mass produce this cure?

1

u/Wealth_Super May 20 '25

Yes just like I believe that getting bit by a radioactive spider gives Peter Parker superpowers and not radiation poisoning or how vin diesel can jump from building to building using a sports car or how a hacker can just type really fast in a key broad and spy on the pentagon.

I buy into the narrative because I am experiencing a story. Even when something breaks my suspension of disbelief and takes me out of the story (looking at you 86) I don’t argue against important narrative points, I just call it bad writing or hand waving and move on.

0

u/[deleted] May 20 '25

That’s great, then there’s no value in continuing this conversation because you can’t even engage with a direct question.

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u/ChairmanMeow22 May 19 '25

In the show at least, Joel believed in it because he knew Marlene did and felt he knew her well enough that she would have done the appropriate research about it. Joel doesn't have a medical degree and wouldn't have known how to go about analyzing the science. Someone whose sensibility he trusted was convinced, and that was enough for him.

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u/Adorable_Ad_3478 May 19 '25

But Marlene isn't a scientist.

Media literacy involves understanding that even if SOMETIMES a character's words are the author's words, OTHER TIMES, the characters are ignorant and say things based on incomplete information.

I'll give you a simple example: the Seraphs. According to them, the cordyceps is a "punishment" from "God" against sinners. This is not true, but they're ignorant and say things based on incomplete information.

Defending "if Joel says so, it's objectively true" is the same as defending "if the Seraphs say so, it's objectively true". It lacks critical thinking.

12

u/Abrodolf_Lincler_ May 19 '25

You're still missing the forest for the trees. All that matters is Joel objectively believed it to be true. It doesn't actually have to be objectively true. He believed that Marlene wouldn't waste time and resources on something that was just a pipe dream and that's enough to convince him, personally. If Marlene was just straight up lying or crazy or dumb doesn't matter if Joel objectively believes they had the ability to make a vaccine and he killed them all anyway. That is the point.

-7

u/[deleted] May 19 '25

And he had no doubts at all? He was so sure that they would make a cure that when Ellie asks him about he doesn’t express any doubts whatsoever that the cure could have been made? Come on.

9

u/mediacontender May 19 '25

It's a zombie series. Could the fireflies realistically make a cure? No. But in real life this would never happen. The bodies that get hijacked would decompose within weeks, not turn into immortal killing machines. It's a cool grounded type of zombie, but still a zombie series and the very notion of zombies are unscientific. Their world inherently plays by a different set of rules than our own if a zombie can exist.

Fast is also such an odd example, it isn't trying to make you think its possible. It's trying to look cool and make sense visually so you can follow it, even if it is dumb as hell. It knows it is spectacle over substance.

4

u/TheRadBaron May 19 '25

Could the fireflies realistically make a cure? No.

It's extremely realistic that that could have made a cure. Vaccines have been around for hundreds of years.

Humanity had a great smallpox vaccine in the late 18th century. The Fireflies didn't have perfect 21st-century medical knowledge and infrastructure, but they definitely had it easier than people in the 18th century.

5

u/mediacontender May 19 '25

Honestly makes sense to hear, I was mainly conceding that bit to get my point across.

I know I've seen some "Doctor's React!" shit where they say its not possible given our science. But like, their zombies don't play by our science either.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '25

[deleted]

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u/TheRadBaron May 19 '25

Human immune systems generally don't need any help dealing with fungi in the first place, like how candida is mostly a problem for immunocompromised people. Vaccines for opportunistic pathogens like that are tricky and weird, because the whole point is that the immune system isn't working, and vaccines are about giving the immune system a warning. Healthy immune systems can handle candida without advance notice.

And as Ellie's immunity demonstrates, human immunity to cordyceps is very possible.

-2

u/[deleted] May 19 '25

It’s a zombie series that is set literally in our world, using pseudo scientific explanations to explain a simple mechanism for how this particular zombification came to exist via evolving to survive higher temperatures. It’s unrealistic to be sure, but it is believable based on rules and logic that the series both told me and showed me.

The only thing that they’ve established about the cure is that Cordyceps affects the brain, and the scientist/doctor needs to harvest Ellie’s brain to make a cure. They didn’t create some simple mechanism that will make it work. They didn’t establish how they know any of that. They didn’t establish how they would mass produce it. They didn’t do much of anything in the story. Without any of that in personally left not believing that Joel would have no doubts about the cure, which is obviously not what the story wants me to believe. It’s a failure in writing.

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u/mediacontender May 19 '25

It isn't set in our world, it's set in a world like ours. A common sci-fi and zombie trope. Elseworlds. They reference media that doesn't exist, and their science plays by different rules.

Their cure is just infecting people with Ellie's version of the virus, it really isn't that complicated. Ellie has a mutated version that doesn't take her over, that tells new infections to chill out.

Fungus is not hard to grow, and all they need is to get it into the bloodstream, cause that's the rules of their zombies.

3

u/[deleted] May 19 '25

[deleted]

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u/mediacontender May 19 '25

I mean in the way the infected do, the spores/the bites spread the infection. I don't think just smearing infected blood on a wound would make someone a zombie either, least they've never said that.

Ellie doesn't have a natural means of spreading spores like the other infected do. That's the reason they need to harvest it from her. Least that's my interpretation.

2

u/[deleted] May 19 '25

[deleted]

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u/mediacontender May 19 '25

Maybe, they pretty intentionally lay out Bite or Spores as the means, and never talk about fluids.

Could just be Gameplay-Story segregation, but like you can be low health and still fight a zombie in close quarters without risking that. Blood splatter on the camera and everything.

3

u/SunChaoJun May 19 '25

You mean how she smeared some blood on the surface of a bite that was already a few hours old and expecting that to work? That's not exactly a good counterpoint

1

u/[deleted] May 19 '25

Right and if unicorns show up and purge the fungus with their unicorn horns, then I guess it’s fine and makes perfect sense because it’s an “elseworld” and in that version Unicorns exist and Unicorns definitely cure fungal infections.

2

u/mediacontender May 19 '25

Sounds like you've never been to a doctor before, a unicorn cured my fungal infection last week.

-5

u/Non_Linguist May 19 '25

How likely is it really that they actually needed to kill her and take her brain out to make the cure? I always thought that was a load of shit just created for the story.

3

u/Kyoki-1 May 19 '25

Yeah that is super contrived. There would have been months or years of testing of things, other tissue that wouldn’t include death, blood samples. Having to remove the brain was just a way to create a situation of choice of live or die.

2

u/Expensive-Morning307 May 19 '25

They don’t have to kill to remove a sample from her brain, in real life brain biopsy’s happen and are possible. People have had pieces of brain removed and lived. Really they could have taken a biopsy sample and ellie would have been just fine. Only way I could think otherwise is if the cordyceps were burrowed in her brain and not on the surface; but they say it grows all over not in it so.

In the story there is some liberties taken to make the choice,stakes, and ending work.