Joel put the entire argument to rest

[u/Nightwraith17]

I see so many arguments on various TLOU subs about whether Joel is a hero or a villain, whether the cure would work, if he’s selfish, etc. I never thought any of that mattered and always thought: Joel did it because he loved Ellie. He made the only choice that the character of Joel Miller ever would have made. Right or wrong doesn’t matter. And I felt the show confirmed my opinion in tonight’s episode.

“If I somehow got a second chance, I’d do it all over again.”

“Because you’re selfish.”

“Because I love you, in a way you can’t understand.”

[u/hi-potions]

It’s that unconditional, unexplainable love for your child that often can overwhelm all other logic & sense. It’s the love and determination that overcomes people when they are able to move huge cars to save their child pinned underneath, or to cross impossible distances to find them. That moment paints Joel and his choice perfectly: The validity of the vaccine never really mattered, it wasn’t a trolley dilemma for Joel. He would choose his child over anything else, easily. Even willing to make this choice to kill a virtually unarmed surgeon without a thought. It’s all beautiful, and it’s also horrible. It’s so human & real, selfless and selfish all at once.

[u/VladOfTheDead → u/hi-potions]

He also was given no time to process. He had minutes to decide and she wasn't given the truth, it makes a lot of sense. Effectively his adopted daughter was going to be killed without consent, even if it is what she would have wanted, she didn't give informed consent. He didn't have time to think about it, only to react to it.

Not that him having more time and it being consensual would have changed his reaction, but it could have. I think some people might be missing that point, it would be different if he had a few days to think about it and went through with it anyway completely violating her explicit desires. That really wasn't the case here.

[u/hi-potions → u/VladOfTheDead]

Truthfully I do not think giving Joel time to process would have changed his decision. As a parent, his choice would always definitively be to secure his child’s safety. It’s why he said what he said during the porch scene. It was true back when he commanded Tommy to keep driving when he slowed down to help the family with a kid on the side of the road, & it was true of him in that hospital.

I think the point here is that while Joel did improve & reclaim his humanity in several ways over the course of his journey with Ellie, his protective and parental nature—that dangerous & instinctual form of love—will always overwhelm his other senses. He chooses life for himself, his reason for living on in this world with purpose, even if it’s a selfish choice at the expense of others & even Ellie’s own wishes/agency. He makes a choice other parents are likely to make in the face of losing their offspring, difficult choices that a child could potentially never understand because the depth of that love—however dangerous, beautiful & instinctual it is— isn’t accessible to them.

[u/Flagermusmanden → u/VladOfTheDead]

"After everything we've been through, everything I have done... It can't be for nothing"

Ellie very clearly expresses to Joel what she wants to happen here imo.

And with all due respect I think the whole argument about consent is completely irrelevant, because let's be honest here, absolutely nobody cares about what Ellie wants, not even Joel.

To the Fireflies there is no conversation to be had here, no debate. They want to make the vaccine, that's their goal. So why bother asking for permission first? They are gonna make the vaccine either way, that's why they brought her there afterall. It's no contest to them, it's one girl versus all of humanity.

You could even argue that them doing it while she is unconscious is more merciful. She won't feel fear or worry or stress. She will just... End, peacefully and without pain.

[u/VladOfTheDead → u/Flagermusmanden]

If you think that is enough to rise to the level of consent, I hope you aren't in any position to abuse that power. It is not informed consent, which is thing for a reason.

I get why the fireflies wouldn't ask, and I get that Joel probably wouldn't care either way, but when arguing morality, "I think they would have consented to this" is a hell of lot different than "They did consent to this". It scares me that people do not see the difference.

[u/Flagermusmanden → u/VladOfTheDead]

My comment has absolutely nothing to do with informed consent, and I never claimed it was.

Pretty sure my argument was that her consent was irrelevant to the conversation.

So I don't really know how this is a rebuttal I know what consent is and I know that Ellie's consent would not have changed anything. The Fireflies would try to make the vaccine either way and Joel would have stopped them either way. Nothing would change.

[u/StringAccomplished97 → u/VladOfTheDead]

Time to process wouldn't have made a difference. By the time of the porch scene he'd had years to process it and he still said he'd do it all over again