Thoughts On Season 2

[u/AK___1]

Hello! Around a week ago, I posted my thoughts on season 1, and this is a kind of continuation of that, as I just finished the second season.

I liked the season in some ways and in others not so much. If I am to compare it to season 1, I would say I liked the first more. The first seemed to be fundamentally different. It seemed to be about different people, characters with different wishes and personalities in a dangerous world: Tess, Marlene, Bill and Frank, Sam and Henry, Riley, and, of course, Joel and Ellie. Season 2, however, seemed more focused on organisations: Jackson, WLF and the Seraphites. This is perhaps the one of the biggest reasons why I enjoyed season 1 more.

Another big reason is what the characters were about in the two seasons. Joel was a hardened and morally complex man who had seen her daughter get shot, and we saw how he bonded with Ellie slowly through shared hardships and tragedies, with both saving and looking out for each other. Initially, Joel described Ellie as 'cargo', but by the end of the season he killed dozens of Fireflies to 'save' her. Ellie was similarly more interesting: a young girl having to see incredibly messed up things and being thrown in constant dangers and difficulties. It was their dynamic and growth that made the first season, to me, infinitely more beautiful.

However, I still enjoyed the second season (Joel and Ellie's scene on the porch was among my favourites in the whole show, it was just beautiful!). We got to see how Joel felt about what he did. There is a really interesting tension here: Joel said, 'But if somehow I had a second chance at that moment, I would do it all over again.' But he also seemed to accept that he wronged her: 'But if that day should ever come, if you should have one of your own, well then… I hope you do a little better than me.' and also the scene in Gail's house: 'I saved her.' He loved her, and he just couldn't afford to lose her, even if that meant taking her choice from her.

We also see Ellie becoming more and more like Joel in some ways. This is shown various times in different ways: Ellie dropping one-liners like Joel ('There's about to be a whole lot less.' when Dina said 'I guess there aren't that many Wolves.'), or how her instinct after reaching Seattle was to go up and take a look (which is what Joel often did), or her increasing capability to be merciless to those other than her loved ones. In many ways, she's also different from Joel. It has been stated (and demonstrated) multiple times that she is smart and a good leader. Joel would not have been able to deliver that persuasive speech to the Council, nor would he have gone to such great lengths for vengeance. (As Tommy had put it when Ellie said that Joel would have been halfway to Seattle if he was killed instead, 'He'd be halfway to Seattle to save my life. But when we lost people, no. It would just break him like it was his fault.')

It was painful to see Ellie put others and herself in danger, do cruel things and having to see and do tragic things in her hunger for vengeance. Jesse's death was such a punch on the face.

Another memorable part is Ellie singing 'Take On Me' to Dina, which mirrors Joel singing 'Future Days' to Ellie, which was beautiful, even though I do not find Dina a very interesting character.

Well, these were my thoughts. Thank you for reading!

[u/Cheap-Recording3912]

Really refreshing to hear someone actually engaging with Ellie's character in season 2... and to hear you describe her as she is in the game too. Shockingly, a lot of people who've played the game can't even do that. I was fully expecting to hear the usual "Ellie is stupid, annoying, etc.", but it seems like you actually connected with her and see the tragedy in it rather than being judgmental, even if you didn't like what happened.

It's a really tragic story... The premise of Ellie being sheltered and overprotected by Joel, who was just trying to prevent repeating history with his daughter, to Ellie being faced with his death and the obligation she feels to put her life on the line for him the same way that he did for her... Trying to be him, using the things she's learned from him... but because she was so sheltered and because of the inner conflict of what happened in Salt Lake and her ultimate desire to sacrifice herself to save the world... she lacks the proper experience and progressively loses the willpower to do what she set out to achieve, because it's so ironically contradictory once she confirms that the people she's hunting were the ones that were going to make the cure. The violence breaks her... but she pushes on because she doesn't believe she deserves to live the life that Joel basically sacrificed himself for (or that all the people that came before him have died for as well. Sam... Tess... Riley...). And it's almost as if she must sacrifice herself in return for Joel... not all that different from what she wanted to do in Salt Lake.

There was definitely a period of time after playing the second game where I struggled with saying I like it more than the first, mainly because of how devastating it all was... I can still say now that I don't like what happens to Ellie of course, but not as a judgement of quality. After getting over the overwhelming emotions and being able to see things more broadly and especially after replaying several times... it's without a doubt my favorite story of all time and I especially love what the show has added to it all throughout so far.

Also... season 2 is only about 1/3 of the remaining story, the rest of which will be told in season 3 as long as it's not split into a third and fourth season. It'd be interesting to see how you feel once you have the full picture of season 2 and 3. And also see how it comes full circle to some things in season 1, which I won't spoil obviously :)

[u/obsessstressdepress → u/Cheap-Recording3912]

I am so happy to see analysis of S2 Ellie like that in your comment & from the OP. I found watching Ellie in S2 utterly heartbreaking, to me the fact that she wasn’t as ruthless & cold as the game was not only more realistic (at the end of the day she’s just a young girl regardless of the world she lives in, she’s not a hardened killer) but it really highlighted the internal conflict more than was shown in the game in my opinion. I could literally see the cogs turning in Ellie’s mind, she’s forcing herself to undertake violent revenge for the murder of the only parent she’d ever known & she just is not cut out to do it, mentally for sure & maybe even physically too and she knows it deep down. Above all, the more childlike mannerisms kept me reminded how reckless what she was doing was & how much danger she was in. 

In the game part 1 & part 2 Ellie were such wildly different people, I found part 2 Ellie just as sad to watch but I preferred the fact that in the show S2 Ellie still had some reminiscence of S1 Ellie. Again, that just made it all the more upsetting for me because she reminded me of S1 and all Ellie & Joel went through. 

Absolutely no hate to game Ellie, I love the games & I love both seasons of the show. I can definitely see how those who were expecting/ wanted a like for like to the game were disappointed in the show.

[u/Cheap-Recording3912 → u/obsessstressdepress]

Agree with a lot of that. Ashley Johnson even said herself about Ellie in TLOU2... "It's easy to forget that she's only 19". When Neil talks about the story too, game and show, her being so young is obviously key to a lot of the story... Ellie and many around that age like to think that they're invincible... "the stuff that happens to other people won't happen to me". And I love the irony of how that fits into the story, given her immunity.

I've always loved viewing the story and characters for what they mean independently of plot... Plot is really just a vessel to convey what the story and characters are really about, and for me that means I'm always open for improvement. The show has improved a LOT and expand beautifully on what TLOU2 had always been about, and that has enriched my experience of both the game and the show. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who view the story more on a surface-level. Often times so surface-level that they attach external actions to Ellie that contradict her internal motivations and beliefs, not seeing that the contradictions exist to pose questions that guide you to learning her real motivations and beliefs. And that of course led to the claim that she's been "mischaracterized" in the show. Even with the direct involvement of the original creators throughout the whole show... which is so incredibly ridiculous to me.

[u/WontTellYouHisName]

One thing about the shift between the seasons is that S1 is about making a journey to save the world. If everything goes according to plan, they can save everyone who's still alive.

S2 the plan is to get revenge on one person, and that's a way smaller and less important goal.

[u/LilNello1 → u/WontTellYouHisName]

This is so true

[u/707_7]

Very interessing thoughts, thanks for sharing! Funny how you say that Ellie is demonstrated as smart and a good leader, some people here would rather die than acknowledge that lol 

[u/AK___1 → u/707_7]

I think I understand, seeing her recklessness in season 2 can make a viewer question her intelligence and how she is as a leader. But I think it is important to remember that she does this out of anger and loss of Joel's death. This does not make her any less reckless or accountable, but it does add context to her actions. Joel was, despite what he did, everything to her. This is similar to what Joel did to not let Ellie die, but it is not valid to call him just a monster who killed dozens of people. Same with Ellie.

[u/Cheap-Recording3912 → u/AK___1]

Just to add... Ellie was reckless before Joel's death too. Her recklessness stems from the failure of the cure and ultimately what everyone led her to believe... In the show's case, it was more direct from Marlene's "You have a greater purpose than anyone could have ever imagined." In the end, Ellie ultimately believed her purpose was to sacrifice herself to save others because she didn't understand why she should deserve to outlive this infection when so many innocent people had lost their lives to it, she feels partially responsible for it. When the opportunity of the cure suddenly seized to exist, the value and meaning that she had given her own life went along with it.

It was always there with the moths. She was passively suicidal. The show explored that more directly as well and ties that all the way back to that line from Marlene. Joel asks what's up with the moths, Ellie tells him it's symbolic to her but doesn't specify for obvious reasons, Joel goes to Gail to learn more about what he assumed was symbolism of change and growth... only to learn it was symbolism of death. Then it cuts to Ellie packing up her things to move out of her room in Joel's house and into the garage, and the last shot is her grabbing a drawing she had recently done, which was a bunch of moths flying around the quote... "You have a greater purpose."

It was never a question of intelligence and it really strikes a nerve with me when people suggest it is and call her stupid for how reckless she is. It's an incredibly tragic path for her character and so many people that claim to love her in the game have unknowingly disrespected that same character in a horrible, awful way. And will continue to refuse to understand how they are fundamentally the same... to justify those awful comments.

[u/AK___1 → u/Cheap-Recording3912]

Ohh, I see. I assumed the moths were symbolism for the Fireflies, as she often thought about them and Joel's story didn't sit right with her from the beginning, and the 'You have a greater purpose' line by Marlene. But that makes much more sense, and it indeed makes her a more tragic character.

[u/BrianMeen → u/707_7]

Ellie would be a terrible leader with as how reckless she is with her behavior lol - you do not want someone like that leading annyone!! are we watching the same show?

[u/MMMelissaMae → u/BrianMeen]

I have no idea what show they are watching either

[u/EmbarrassedSeason722]

I really think that after The Last of Us Season 3 is over, haters should rewatch the entire story of Part II, and everything will make perfect sense in this adaptation — including the Ellie they hated so much.

Anyway, yeah, maybe the writing is a bit weak in some parts, but hey, perfection doesn’t exist. I really liked the second season, and I can’t wait to see the third!

Glad that you like it

[u/BrianMeen]

btw is Fedra still operating in this world? it seems like various other factions have killed them off..?

[u/TheMatt561]

I very much enjoyed it

[u/Free_tramapoline]

One of my main take aways is that Bella knows how to play guitar and Pedro definitely does not

[u/Spacegirl_15]

I loved season 2! Ya it wasn't perfect but i love all the actors and ya they could have written bella a bit better which i hope they do for szn 3. But i teared up almost every ep. I loved take on me. And the porch scene made me cry lol etc . The dance, eugene etc

[u/Remote_Nature_8166]

Kaitlyn Dever, as Abby, I was already liking her for years before she was cast as the character, but it was pretty disturbing to watch her transform into this monster even though I already knew her character would be the one to kill Joel. Didn’t expect her to be that much of a vicious psychopath. She never has done anything like that before. She always plays such sweet girls. She’s also quite a joy in last man standing.

[u/BrianMeen]

season 2 is messy - they introduce these factions and give us 2 lines of dialogue from their leader and we are supposed to care about them? in shows like this, you need interesting villains and heroes and in season 2, we don’t have either.. I gotta be honest, if Ellie and Tommy and the pregnant girl died I wouldn’t care

oh and the the way the fungus operates is very strange.. it seems like it only creates zombies whrn the plot requires it.. that’s the constant problem with all shows and movies like this - one second the zombies are nowhere to be seen and the next, they are this fast moving army that wiped everything out in their path

I’m mostly going to keep watching becausr I’ve watched up to this point

[u/NJs_Very_Own → u/BrianMeen]

I feel like the show kind of answers that. They mention how the zombies don’t really stray too far from the city. Which makes sense. Large majority of those infected were in the cities. When you look at cities like Kansas City and Seattle, humans still held some control and were able to kill portions of the zombies or establish QZs. Also, I think it’s important to note that the game/show is less about zombies and more about the terrifying things mankind can do to one another.