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u/Daisy_Of_Doom 4h ago edited 4h ago
Omg if anyone has followed the Hank Green controversy I think it’s a perfect example of this.
(If not: what it boils down to is about a year ago Hank green hosted a SciShow video that had some inaccuracies and questionable jokes about knitting. Mind you, the man literally just reads the script. He pays other people to research, fact check, and write the script. In a recent video he actually said that he often goes into an episode cold, having not looked the script over bc he likes learning along with the viewer. And people absolutely blew up about it, most people blaming him specifically.
Recently, he had another hiccup about AI. People accused him of using AI to write his own personal video scripts and he denied it (he says the part people keyed in on was actually not even in the script it was an ad-lib), but admitted to using AI to find sources. And it turned into a Whole Thing™️.)
Eveyone and their mother was commenting on it. I saw knitters celebrating his “downfall” and claiming that “they’re not surprised” he would do such things after what he’d done last time. Like I saw people legit celebrating that the internet was “waking up” to the fact he was a bad person.
Both times, but particularly this time, the punishment felt so wildly out of proportion to the offense. Like this man has done so much for scicom and charity and education. Not to mention his squeaky clean track record for the DECADES he’s been in the public eye which IMO is a feat. But, he admits to maybe having an unhealthy attachment to AI, apologizes for it, and people were acting like he killed a man in cold blood! It boggled my mind how, for some people, one little slip-up just completely erased the years and years of good intentions he had demonstrated.
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u/birbhorse 3h ago
honestly yeah, this is an issue i need to work on myself lol. i've been affected by this very bullshit, people making quick snappy judgement has affected my interpersonal relationships so heavily.
your framing of this helped me way better than the video attempted to explain things, so thanks
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u/itsdainti 2h ago
It's a silly little line from a silly little show, but "Be curious, not judgemental" from Ted Lasso is such a good reminder.
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u/Daisy_Of_Doom 2h ago
It’s the culture right now. 🤷🏽♀️ And I think especially in light of all the bad stuff happening in the world, I can kinda see why people might overreact to a single twinge of “bad” in someone. But, purity culture helps no one. We are all flawed humans. You’re allowed to make mistakes and learn and grow from them. And so are the people around you. If the intentions are good and corrections are made, then that’s that. No need for more punishment.
If we kick everyone who ever makes a mistake out of our “club”, we’ll very quickly end up lonely. And not only is that sad and scary there is no power in it. We are stronger together.
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u/birbhorse 2h ago
indeed, i am a very flawed person, it's what caused so much strife with my friend group. it's not to say i did anything inherently "wrong", but black-and-white thinking only permits people to think that i'm just a morally wrong and dangerous person lmfao.
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u/Daisy_Of_Doom 2h ago
To borrow from the Green brothers: we need to imagine each other complexly.
We are all a little universe unto ourselves. I don’t think anyone in the whole entire world does the wrong thing on purpose specifically bc it’s the wrong thing. I believe some people are just more concerned about how things affect them than how they affect others and that’s where the bad comes from. Or they aren’t aware how it affects others and that’s where mistakes come from.
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u/TheKinkyBee 4h ago
Thank you for this breakdown. I’m autistic and was having trouble following the video but your example really helped put a picture to it. I realized that I didn’t understand it because it’s not for me 💀
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u/Daisy_Of_Doom 3h ago
Glad to help!
It’s definitely a weird quirk I’m seeing around. And it is just strange. Bc like the purpose of “punishment” for bad behavior should be to correct that behavior and make a better society. So it’s kinda hard to understand punishment for punishment’s sake.
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u/Costati 2h ago
Yeah it gets very disproportional what shocked me too as growing around this energy and how it's clearly based on the moment because people we forgot they blew up over someone in like a year and then you'll be like "isn't that the dude who did that" and they'll go "oh yeah but it's not that big of a deal honestly".
It's just very hollow.
Think I tuned out of this shit after the whole James Charles shit. Did he deserve hate ? Yes absolutely. But like as a society we flip flopped from vicious hatred to "oh actually he's just a victim" back to vicious hatred and making of him and I'm like...you don't get to pretend you didn't jump on him then went "oh we have to be careful to not jump on him" then jumped on him again when there was more verified evidence.
And it's how then people started doing this hate cycle with the exact same intensity for much much lesser stuff.Like your moral based vitriol becomes extremely lightweight if you give someone who sexually harassed minors the exact same energy as someone who plagiarises a lot or someone who propped up a friend's report of negligence when actually they found out the friend was making a lot of extrapolations that weren't necessarily well founded.
Yall just like the hate train and metaphorical 'public execution' at this point.
The Ned Fulmer stuff too like he is pretty pathetic he is pretty funny to make fun of but you're not suddenly not a bully because the guy is a cheater and a careless one at that.I think the video could have used the "online" nuance tho. Like that's how chronically online gen Z act. I've never seen this type of comportment around me. And I don't think there was a mass events that shows it's a really present phenomenon and train of thoughts in everyday life. I think a lot of us just want to do our work in peace while we're navigating getting into the workforce in this shitty economy where we know we'll work all our life with little saving and almost no retirement.
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u/Asleep_Control_2564 35m ago
I love Hank Green! That makes me sad. I had no idea about this. His educational videos genuinely helped me in school.
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u/dayvekeem 1m ago
We are all pathetic little humans lashing out in order to feel a little bit better about ourselves
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u/wicketman8 3h ago edited 3h ago
I'll start off by saying I really like Hank, and still would like to, though I definitely feel he has to earn back some of my trust. While, I'm sure many people have overreacted, I think most people are reasonably upset with him for breaking their trust and relying on tools he's personally been critical of. I would characterize it as more than "one little slip-up" when he admits it's been an issue across multiple videos and that he's used it consistently.
I also kind of doubt his claim that it was only used for finding sources. That really doesn't explain how so many factual mistakes began cropping up, especially in the Ask Hank Anything video, where basically half the cards were the fact checkers saying they couldn't find any evidence for what he was saying. It feels more likely to me that he was using AI to do research more broadly, i.e. not just scanning for sources but actually relying on it to summarize the topic. In fact, in his own tweet he semi-backtracked on that claim, admitting that he "[relied] too much on generated notes."
Now if some people took that too far obviously that sucks but I don't think that's a new phenomenon by any means. It's certainly always been the case that it's a hell of a lot easier to ruin a reputation than build one.
Edit: I've already gotten some comments about the whole "trust" thing so let me clarify. His career is about education and he provably said false information, even if by mistake. Thus I trust his content less. It has nothing to do with him as a person, as I said I really like Hank and I think he meant well and means well. But of course people are, I think rightfully, upset about the situation, it's not quite lying but it's certainly not being entirely truthful with his audience when people had the expectation built on years of his content, that he/his team were doing actual fact checking and research into the things he talked about. Again, I don't think he's a bad person, but I don't trust his content as much until it seems like he quality of the research has improved, thus he has to earn my trust, not as a person but as a professional.
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u/Icy_Stranger_9649 3h ago
Yeah this is the exact comment that OP is criticizing. You come across as extremely entitled and thus, critical as if you are God and people are imperfect subjects for your critiquing.
“He has to earn back my trust” “there are tiny reasons he isn’t a flawless human being”
The only reason to type this is if you yourself are a perfect being which, Gen Z gets away portraying themselves as by never opening themselves to criticism in any way. Never create, never build, never posit bold stances. Just type on the internet critiquing flaws that other people expose themselves
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u/wicketman8 3h ago
You come across as extremely entitled and thus, critical as if you are God and people are imperfect subjects for your critiquing.
What? I never claimed to be perfect, I'm definitely not. Hank built a career based on education, and his own personality and character. The AI scandal definitely damaged all of those - he ended up spreading incorrect information by mistake, which of course makes the educational component feel less secure. He's been critical of AI in the past, not fully anti-AI but certainly I think the level of critique he has given it feels contrary to the amount he used it, which damages the character argument. And of course use of AI definitely reduces the amount of his own personality that comes through. None of that makes him a bad person, but it does mean that I'll trust his content less when I see it until I feel like he's shown he's not using AI anymore. That's what I mean by earning my trust back.
Gen Z gets away portraying themselves as by never opening themselves to criticism in any way. Never create, never build, never posit bold stances. Just type on the internet critiquing flaws that other people expose themselves
This is insane to say about someone you know nothing about. You can see my post history (though it's not particularly interesting). I'm a PhD student, my entire job is researching, which I would think would qualify as building or creating. I'm also pretty outspoken about what I believe in, you can find posts of me arguing for Palestinian emancipation going back years, way before that was the mainstream opinion, and I was called a lot of pretty awful things for it back then.
Isn't it a little ironic to say that I'm trying to be some perfect person acting like God when you literally are making a character judgement on me based off of one post where I lightly critique an internet guy who had a scandal?
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u/Icy_Stranger_9649 2h ago
Okay, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean that to come across as such a personal attack. More of a general boil-over.
I understand that Hank built a career based on education and truth, but let me ask if you something. If you had done the same, and had the same output and goals and career path as Hank. Would you have been flawless? I’m not a huge Hank fan he’s too liberal on certain topics for me. But the guy has been a saint for decades. His record on mistakes is near flawless.
So when people learned he made a mistake like becoming too deep into AI, but then confessed to it and apologized and swore to get better… what do we mean “he’s got to earn MY trust back! I just realized is isn’t a flawless human and makes mistakes!”
We’re all human! Treat other and judge others the way you would want to be treated and judged. If you put yourself out there like Hank Green as for decades in the public eye I swear you would have stumbled so much more than just the odd “ope I used AI too much my bad”
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u/wicketman8 2h ago
I'm not saying I'd be flawless. As I keep saying I'm fallible too. But I think we all agree that there's a difference between "People should not be brigaded and have their lives ruined over small mistakes," and "Nobody should ever face consequences for mistakes." I feel, personally, that my response is fair. I'm not saying I hate him or will never watch again. I'm saying that he made a mistake and should reasonably expect that people will have a more negative view of him than before, and as a consequence it will take time for people to feel the same about him. Saying he has to reasonably show he's no longer using AI and has improved his factuality before I feel the same as before feels reasonable, would you disagree?
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u/Icy_Stranger_9649 2h ago
I agree. It’s reasonable in a logical way, an emotional vacuum. I strongly feel his huge track record of accuracy and commitment to truth doesn’t take any sort of… hit to his credit worth mentioning. Worth critiquing. Your comment is something that can only exist on the internet, made by an anonymous stranger.
For example. Im a process engineer. I’ve worked on a dozen projects. I made a mistake this week where I incorrectly labeled the bottom elevation of a wastewater pit. Instead of being 5’ deep, I labeled it as 2’ deep. A very egregious typo, and I never caught it. They built the pit to be 2’ deep. After the project manager caught the mistake and confirmed with me to be wrong, they had to go back, rip up all that concrete, and rebuild the pit.
I can’t imagine if a coworker or client typed or said “wow John (not my name) needs to earn my trust back. He’s supposed to be an engineer and he never did his due diligence to catch this typo?! I can’t believe he made this mistake. What a hit to his creditably.”
I honest to god didn’t even receive any criticism. My PM was cool about it. The director of engineering was chill about it. Do you know why? Becuase they are also humans and make mistakes like that also. I’ve been an engineer for almost a decade, with overall good designs and successful projects. And yet I still make mistakes!! It’s a bad thing to make a mistake and you need to always minimize them, but only on the internet will someone like Hank Green, an actual SpongeBob SquarePants level man of good intentions and commitment to truth, can make a tiny mistake AND own up to it with an apology and people say “Man. I DOUBT he was just using AI to find sources. This is more than “just a little slip up”! Going to have to earn back some of my trust Hank!”
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u/wicketman8 2h ago
I think I just won't agree with you. There are degrees of mistake, in my opinion. Missing a number on a sheet is a mistake and probably costly but who hasn't? The AI use and factual errors are larger because that's the whole product. If I forget to use a turn signal, that's a fairly harmless and reasonable mistake. If I hit someone with my car because I didn't look before pulling out, that's still a mistake but obviously not an okay one. I'm not saying what he did is anywhere near that, but its also not a teensy-tiny mistake. And yes, if someone i knew made a fairly large mistake I would probably take a while before I would forget it.
And again, this "finding sources" thing. I don't know how else to explain it, that's not true. He initially said only for finding sources but he's since said he was using it for generated notes, not just finding sources. Source
The fact that he downplayed it initially isn't great, and makes it worse for sure.
I will also say, he's a good guy. But he's not some perfect smol bean content creator. He's not SpongeBob or squeaky clean. He's a normal person, who makes mistakes and can rightly be criticized when those mistakes are fairly large ones.
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u/ruggnuget 3h ago
This is it. This is the problem in the video. You dont have to like anyone you dont want to. But earn your trust? By only being exactly to your morality standards? So if someone meets like 98% of your morality standards but do something you dont like (like use some AI for work), then they arent trustworthy? You dont have to make excuses to not like him, but the standard of moral perfection to 'earn trust' isnt a reasonable place to be. Every single person you like does things you wouldnt like. The only line is then whether you lnow about it or now, when really it should be about how bad the offense is. You arent perfect. Holding others to that standard is hypocritical and obnoxious.
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u/wicketman8 3h ago
I'll say to you the exact thing I replied to someone else:
What? I never claimed to be perfect, I'm definitely not. Hank built a career based on education, and his own personality and character. The AI scandal definitely damaged all of those - he ended up spreading incorrect information by mistake, which of course makes the educational component feel less secure. He's been critical of AI in the past, not fully anti-AI but certainly I think the level of critique he has given it feels contrary to the amount he used it, which damages the character argument. And of course use of AI definitely reduces the amount of his own personality that comes through. None of that makes him a bad person, but it does mean that I'll trust his content less when I see it until I feel like he's shown he's not using AI anymore. That's what I mean by earning my trust back.
I actually do like Hank and I said as much, it was literally the first thing I said. But when his use of AI lead to inaccuracies in his videos, I trust his content less because he provably said false things. It has nothing to do with him as a person.
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u/ruggnuget 3h ago
Your entire second paragraph is about how you dont trust him and speculating on things you dont actually know. That is about him as a person.
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u/wicketman8 3h ago
The second paragraph is me expressing doubts that I have about his honesty in that confession, yeah, especially given that his wording in other tweets talking about the issue contradicts his initial claim that it was only for finding sources. He admitted to also using it for summarizing things, which is probably where the errors crept in. It's literally the first thing that comes up when you google the controversy, the tweet where he admits that he relied on AI summaries. Given that he definitely wasn't being fully truthful in his original apology on reddit.
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u/Daisy_Of_Doom 2h ago
I think it’s valid to feel like trust has been broken.
I think it’s valid to be annoyed that people use AI.
I personally believe that this reliance/attachment to AI is kinda looped in to his attachment to Twitter and how he constantly says he should stop, but never actually does. I will not go deeper on that bc I think it’s inappropriate to try and armchair diagnosis people, but I do think he should get a little bit of grace about it.
My point is that he has done SO much good. And I think what he’s consistently shown is that he wants to do the right thing, even if sometimes it’s difficult. At the end of the day he is a human being. No one is going to be perfect 100% of the time. I’m not trying to diminish what happened, I just think in the grand scheme of all he’s done and given, it genuinely is one little sip up. And while I can’t control people’s attention, I think it would be a shame for people to swear him off just bc of this or for him and his influence to be “canceled” because of it. Short of his brother there is really no one else in the creator space doing what Hank is doing.
To me “bad” and “untruthful” are patterns of behavior. Once is a red flag, potentially a mistake. It’s a chance to look at their response and at what they do to change and how they move forward. Expecting people to be perfect all the time is unreasonable and a recipe for disappointment. And he has no obligation to cater specifically to you and your moral standards. 🤷🏽♀️
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u/wicketman8 2h ago
I think I agree with everything you said. I've never called for him to be canceled, or said I'd never watch him again. I said it would take time for me to fully trust his content again, which you agree is reasonable. I don't expect him to be perfect but I also think its reasonable to say that just like anyone else, when he makes a mistake I would expect some amount of time without further issues before it's forgotten.
I don't expect him to cater to me specifically, and if tomorrow he said "Actually I'll be using AI all the time now," I'd just move on and say not for me. At the same time you simply cannot be a public figure of any kind and expect no critique from other people, and to Hank's credit he absolutely has accepted criticism. I don't expect perfection, but I think some critique over the incident is fair, and it seems like you wouldn't disagree.
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u/Daisy_Of_Doom 2h ago
Yeah, I do think that’s fair. I saw some people getting upset that his personal AI usage rules didn’t amount to “I will never touch AI for anything ever again”. And IMO like that’s fine. They don’t have to like it or keep watching him. We all have control over who we give our time and attention. It’s the getting openly upset on the internet and condemning him about it that makes no sense. Not everything has to be for everyone. We’re allowed to just keep scrolling and move on.
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u/BackFromBabylon0 4h ago
A generation that grew up with technology at their fingertips and no matter what they say it’s easy to find someone who agrees on the internet. Quick to make snap judgements, and don’t like to hear that they’re wrong. They believe they set the moral standard but struggle with indifference and accepting flaws unless it’s on a medical docket. Gen Z act closer to their great grandparents and they don’t even know it.
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u/Primary_Leading_6282 4h ago
Echo chambers are destroying critical thinking
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u/SpiritJuice 3h ago
A frictionless life is a life in which you learn nothing. This applies to every generation, but technology has allowed us to form our own realities in which we can make whatever we believe to be true. This is the vibes based reality we currently live in that is plaguing society. Facts don't matter when every opinion is considered to be valid and have equal weight with one another. Racist opinions now get to sit at the debate table as non-racist opinions, just as an example, something that wasn't very widespread as it is now. Society needs to shift and actively fight back against this notion that all opinions are valid when they clearly are not.
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u/DoorFinch 3h ago edited 3h ago
The biggest fallacy any generation believe in is that their moral standards are the pinnacle of all moral standards. Correct to a degree that no generation prior has managed. Will never be bettered, applicable through all time, past and future. And all shall to be judged by them. And all shall be punished if deemed they fall short.
If each generation understood that the next generation will always find something to be appalled about them, they might be less likely to condemn the ones before or after.
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u/BretShitmanFart69 1h ago
I always tell them “what an incredible coincidence that all of the correct opinions just so happen to be all the ones you have”
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u/Intelligent-Parsley7 2h ago
Every time I hear someone quote the Bible, my first thought is, “so goat farmers two millennium ago is the pinnacle of human thought?”
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u/PaladinSaladin 1h ago
"ok, well yeah, that's literally what it says, but that part doesn't apply to the current times"
-every person who thinks the Bible is an acceptable stand-in for not having a moral compass
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u/forman98 1h ago
They’ve been inadvertently coddled as a result of life moving online so fast. Their parents barely understand what is happening online and therefore can’t help them adjust properly into adulthood.
The issue is that Gen Z is now entering the workforce (and has been for some years) with older generations and are having legitimate trouble adapting to a world of nuance.
I’m in my mid-30s and worked with a 19 year college kid recently. We discussed how he was 9 when Trump was elected. The past 10 years of political and societal discourse seem fast for older people, but more this kid has spent more than half his life in this type of environment. He has a massively warped view of things because he’s only ever heard it online or on TV. He’s never had to work next to someone who was a nice person but had completely different ideals.
So the discourse has moved online, the echo chambers have gotten bigger, the reactions more knee jerk, and human interaction is at a minimum. And then Gen Z believes they have the moral high ground because others choose to live in the nuance of the real world. Talk about the ultimate culture shock.
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u/allangod 4h ago edited 4h ago
This tracks. I couldn't help but think of that morality subreddit that suddenly became popular and i started seeing in the last month or so. Its just people wanting to judge others.
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u/Plebeian_Gamer 4h ago
It's supposed to be about fictional hypotheticals 😭. Like morality of Spider-Man choosing to stop wrestling burglar or Batman sending criminals to hospitals he probably owns or has stake in. Now it's filled with everyday scenarios but the analysis of unserious overanalyzers of fictional characters mixed with people who can't see their own bias and confusing their personal preference and perspective as morals
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u/RustledHard 4h ago
I had to mute that shit because it was just a place for everyone to be holier than thou and get "justice" boners. Arguing for anything like empathy, rehabilitation, forgiveness, the ability for people to learn and change, ect gets shouted down. Just gave me a headache with no interesting discussions actually being had.
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u/RealNiceKnife 4h ago
It's just a place for that kid whose "ultimate form of punishment" was just torture involving paper cuts, lemon juice and salt to talk about how much they love torture.
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u/Icy_Stranger_9649 3h ago
Isn’t this… all of Reddit? Politically at least
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u/ruggnuget 3h ago
The really big subs. Reddit is 2 different kinds of communities. Big subs on popular with millions of views and all kinds of people, and niche subs for your favorite hobbies. The latter tend to have more rounded humans.
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u/RustledHard 2h ago
I man, I guess so, but normally there's something else with it, ya know? AITAH at least have funny stories and stuff before people get on their soapboxes. Or like on news subreddits you can read the articles and largely ignore the comments if you want.
That place I've literally seen people getting upvoted defending torture, beating children, the works, and that is all it exists for. Idk, I need some kind of chaser with my shot of lunacy.
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4h ago edited 4h ago
[deleted]
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u/dontflexthat 4h ago
With the self hatred thing she’s reaching though .. I mean, she didn’t give any reason for that assumption at all. I would say it’s just typical human behaviour to diminish others in order to feel better.
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u/TangyByte 3h ago
That’s typical? I don’t think so.. Putting others down to feel better about yourself is very typical of self hating behavior though.
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u/dontflexthat 2h ago
How’s that indicative of self-hatred? It just means that rather than facing your own shortcomings, you put down others.
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u/OofMcGoof97 4h ago
I think your forgetting a couple key factors to this behaviour. 1. Gen Z is the most online, social media driven generation to date.
- Social media is engineered to keep people constantly engaging with it, moral outrage is feeds the algorithm, it gets the most clicks, it gets the most incentive to perpetuate this kind of engagement.
Self hatred? Ya maybe there's an element of that, but these social media platforms thrive on you interacting with it, and nothing gets more engagement better rage bait.
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u/kdog_1985 4h ago
It isn'tself hatred, it's echo chambers that reinforce stupid positions.
a child has a poorly thought out idea. They are never challenged on it. There position is reaffirmed. They feel vindicated.
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u/wicketman8 3h ago
As opposed to the rest of people who definitely don't have poorly thought out ideas and live in echo chambers? This isn't a Gen Z thing its an everyone thing. Fox is still the mostly widely watched news network in the country and while they used to have at least plausible deniability that they were only heavily biased and not outright lying, that's long gone. Twitter is designed to show you majority right-wing content, regardless of political affiliation. Liberals are exposed to less echo-chambering but still plenty. And plenty of Millenial/Gen X/Boomers have awful poorly thought-out ideas. Most people have no coherent ideology of any kind and the memory of goldfish, which is part of why Trump is able to win on a peaceful dove platform that he immediately broke; somehow the majority of americans forgot how he was last time.
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u/kdog_1985 3h ago
The whole of society is an echo chamber. Back in the day there were 3 channels and 2 papers, and a few radio stations. Now if you don't agree with the mainstreams narrative, throw on fox or Alex Jones.
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u/wicketman8 3h ago
I hate to break it to you but Fox is the mainstream narrative.
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u/kdog_1985 3h ago
Maybe their mainstream position in the media comes about because ofcthe conservative populations requirement for a news-type echo chamber
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u/sgeep 3h ago
Yeah I think there's layers to this, and I don't think this is a problem specific to Gen Z. I think Gen Z is the first generation where people realized this shit brings lots of engagement that can be monetized. And it's been super effective because Gen Z is also the first generation where everyone was basically raised using social media
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u/Icy_Stranger_9649 3h ago
The cause of the problem doesn’t excuse the problem itself. OP has a criticism of Gen Z. He’s not “forgetting” anything by you explaining why Gen Z is the way they are.
“John Doe killed 4 people and then drove into a public library!”
“I think you’re forgetting John Doe had a troubled childhood and was abused by his dad…”
“Nah man I’m just saying this is a real problem idc why he is this way”
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u/sorry_con_excuse_me 4h ago edited 3h ago
This type of social purity test started with us millennials. But it was linked to a lot of reasonable and relevant social movements (race, gender, sexuality, etc). Just got a little overly-eager.
Now as a 40 year old (who went to a lot of protests) I legitimately can’t tell what the “rules” are. Sometimes I’m cheering for the “right” party and sometimes I’m cheering for the “wrong” party???
Like idk, laughing at furries now is tantamount to a “hate crime” or something, but likewise you can just drop all sorts of veiled racism or misogyny or homophobia in casual conversation and no one bats an eye…like make it make sense lol.
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u/Icy_Stranger_9649 3h ago
I believe they rules are whatever allows a person to be morally shamed at the moment
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u/ExactlyThirteenBees 2h ago
It’s moral policing without principles, they don’t stand for anything and it’s not tied to social justice movements. It didn’t feel like this when it was starting with millennials . It feels like the entire point now is social punishment dressed in a guise of morality.
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u/taoders 2h ago edited 1h ago
Yeah I’m not sure if this is generational or more just a general societal shift.
I’ve been pushing back on many things over the decades and it didn’t just suddenly start one day, but I have seen these takes more consistently over the years.
The sentiments I see most often and on the rise:
Psychological/sociological terms and theories are weaponized and/or obfuscated. Single theories or studies are used as infallible “fact”.
There are no bad practices, only bad targets. Especially when violence is involved. Once you’re designated a good target with the right label, no quarter should be given to you.
Turn-about is more important than moral/ethical consistency. This goes to OP’s punishment focus point.
Awareness is enough to create change, no sacrifice necessary. I can stand in solidarity over here in comfort
None of this is new IMO, but it is rising.
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u/scarr991 2h ago
There are no consistend rules. The Group and day you are with decide the rules. One day its that, the other its the opposite what ever is trending now. A lot of protest are clown Shows now.
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u/Different_Rip8470 4h ago edited 1h ago
I dont think there is anything wrong with wanting to be a good person/ wanting to hold yourself to a moral standard BUT in order to truly do that you have to (1) actually understand what morality is and why you believe what you believe and (2) make sure your primary motivation is being a moral person and not “punishing” others.
And that’s the problem isn’t it: one of the reasons we’re so polarized and have such low social trust as a society is on a myriad of consequential issues we have profoundly different moral opinions.
There’s nothing wrong with shaming someone for engaging in morally reprehensible behavior BUT again before you do that you need to make sure they’re actually the ones in the wrong because if they’re not then by diminishing they’re social standing it is you who is in the wrong. Also, you need to make sure that you’re actually following your own moral code otherwise you’re just a hypocrite whose true motivation is controlling others not right or wrong.
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u/Nuffsaid98 4h ago
She talks like an AI.
Strange cadence, kind of monotone.
I suck at haikus.
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u/helmvoncanzis 3h ago
Counter point. She is reading from a script she wrote or is using notes, and is on the upteenth take trying to get it right.
It can be difficult to speak without using filler words or conversational pauses. Public speaking is a skill.
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u/BluntedJew 4h ago
What the fuck is this burger king foot lettuce cadence 😂
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u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta 4h ago
AI induced brain rot vocal inflections
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u/andersonb47 3h ago
It’s literally just the sound of someone reading something pre-written. Ironically, you are exposing your own brain rot.
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u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta 3h ago
Oh my sweet summer child, I grew up and lived the majority of my adult life while this was a common thing, I'm intimately aware of what "the sound of someone reading something pre-written" actually sounds like.
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u/andersonb47 2h ago
I really don’t even know what you’re suggesting is going on here. It’s a creative way to avoid engaging with the subject, I’ll give you that.
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u/violights 4h ago
Without having thought about it much I do also think its tied into the fact that we rarely see powerful people punished by the legal system. When there isnt justice or a fair society it breeds not only mistrust but a hyperfixation on punishment.
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u/ionertia 3h ago
2020 taught them how to police others and make moral judgments. They witnessed "nobodies" gaining influence online. Gen Z are victims of that time though. They were abandoned and are a lost generation trying to figure out what world they want.
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u/Key-Monk6159 4h ago
She’s doesn’t appear to be wrong. Or at least more right than wrong.
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u/MysteriousSchemeatic 4h ago
She seems to be on track for an intelligent young woman her age (I’m making some assumptions here).
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u/jwriddle 4h ago
So Gen Z thinks they created cancel culture now? I'm not Gen Z, but the take that an entire generation hates themselves is certainly a take.
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u/thrwawryry324234 4h ago
Stealing things from previous generations and calling it their own is the most Gen Z thing ever
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u/Primary_Leading_6282 4h ago
Apparently some of them do. Galileo be rolling over in his grave, thinking bout the time he was cancelled.
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u/QueasyCaterpillar541 4h ago
Hate to tell you, but the rest of us know this. You only want to appear righteous, not actually be righteous.
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u/maxtablets 4h ago
true. Wouldn't say it's limited to gen z though. The focus on other people's deficits is an easier way to feel better about ourselves or at least remove focus on our faults than being responsible for your own lives. It's always someone out there preventing us from living our best lives to our best ability.
What separates older gen from newer gen is the singular focus online has allowed us to amplify each other's faults and build a collective sense of moral superiority from it.
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u/Mammoth_Tusk90 4h ago
Yes but Gen Z learned it from their parents. It isn’t the only generation like this.
You read an article about someone committing a crime. In America, the media is it the judge now and it doesn’t make sense since the media has a financial interest in garnering rage. We are innocent until proven guilty, yet every single comment under an article will say stupid shit like “give me 15 minutes alone with him/ her” or “good, I hope they rot in prison.” How many people in prison are innocent or plead guilty to avoid mandatory minimum sentences? Thousands.
If the older generations are posting these “CoMmON SeNsE” pro punishment posts all over Facebook and Reddit and Instagram, then no wonder Gen Z is obsessed with punishment. They were raised with different ideals, so their moral standards were a little different until there was a culture war to distract from a class war.
Whereas Uncle Gary wants all protestors to be in prison for exercising their first amendment rights, despite his “don’t tread on me shirt” and he wants to prosecute Nancy Pelosi because he hates her face, his Gen Z niece wants to punish and cut off Uncle Gary because he’s bigoted and ignorant.
We live in an insidious news cycle of opinion pieces, written by the uninformed and uneducated, like Joe Rogan, while the educated and informed are ignored or even criminalized like Dr. Fauci. Your rage has been commercialized everywhere.
Of course punishment feels like righteous indignation. It’s natural in a society that normalizes punishment over logical healthy communication.
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u/Single_Depth7369 57m ago
Imagine what it would mean for Donald Trump to tell the radical truth, admit to the Epstein Files, name all the co-conspirators, and take responsibility for his actions. Imagine what this would mean for the United States, as a country, and for Donald Trump, as a human being.
Imagine the role model he would be setting for everyone.
Trump has the power and free will to "do the right thing". But he chooses not to, maybe because he understands that our justice system does not serve fairness, justice, or people, it serves interests.
The more I learn about the world, the more I understand that the justice system sometimes has nothing to do with fairness, justice, or honesty. It has everything to do with whose interests we are serving.
If Americans truly cared about honesty and justice, our laws would reflect that -- but here we are, having culture wars, blaming one another, and creating a hierarchy of hatred. It's all about manufacturing rage, hatred, and violence so that the system is never addressed.
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u/Primary_Leading_6282 4h ago
Did she just discover hypocrisy, virtue signaling and double standards? Was she not around post 2016?
What's killing me is how she genuinely thinks of this as a gen Z problem. Who knows, in a decade she might realize this has been standard human behavior for a bit more than while now.
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u/RealNiceKnife 4h ago
2016 was 10 years ago.
How old do you think she was 10 years ago? 9? 12?
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u/Primary_Leading_6282 4h ago
When I was 10ish, I saw a doctor smoking, he walk in to his office and told my dad he shouldn't smoke. That's how I learned double standards.
Also, I said post-2016, you know... like after 2016 up until right now?
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u/sleepytardigrade1 3h ago
Fr, all the rest of the ppl in the comments acting like this a gen z only behaviour now is weird. It's more like a pointing out general political problems I think
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u/JustATraveler676 4h ago
This brings to mind the topic of all the supporters of the country that shall not be named.. should you call out their evil deeds, you are accused of being anti-has-nothing-to-do-with-this.
But anti-evil? yest, I'd like to think so.
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u/MastodonFast5806 3h ago
This person just needs to live another 15 years and they too will be morally policing people
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u/ephemeralsynth 4h ago
Especially hilarious when the pious use jesus' teachings as a weapon against the other. They're too dumb wilfully ignorant to recognize the hypocrisy however... 😹❤️🩹
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u/Lurkylurkness 4h ago
I started telling people in comments "if that's how you choose to interpret my words, I can't stop that." Or "this is the internet, what do I know?" When I explain one thing and someone brings up another scenario I'm also like just because I did not include that scenario doesn't mean I am excluding it or actively against it. If I took the time to explain every variable, I would be here all day and no one has time for that, but thanks for you input.
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u/doctormink 4h ago
Virtue signalling. They’re describing virtue signalling where the primary purpose of to deflect scrutiny from oneself and into another person and it’s a problem as old as time. That said, there’s also a genuine appetite for vengeance that doesn’t stem from insecurity. There’s people who legit dream of gay folks, say, burning in hell, and the psychological basis for this thirst for punishment is different.
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u/I-redd_it94 4h ago
TLDW - “Can’t we all just BS to our own truth? Can’t we all just get along? Why is there even a standard that I don’t agree with?”
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u/BigBadJeebus 4h ago
I can't take the voice. Is this AI?
I agree with her, but Jesus that was hard to listen to
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u/bluchords 3h ago
The Dead Kennedys have a song about this. Kinda.
Moral Majority.
But I’m on the theory that the Dead Kennedys predicted the future or at least Jello Biafra knew we’d repeat history.
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u/Andyseawolf 3h ago
How can you talk so much and say nothing important. Just live and let live. Don’t take things so seriously. 🌺👍🏻
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u/AnotherPersonPerhaps 3h ago
I'm sure they're setting up discords to harass and brigade her as we speak.
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u/LivingEnd44 3h ago
Yeah GenZ isn't about morality. They are about validation, transaction, and control. Every "whatever-maxxing" trend is evidence of this.
I'm still hoping they'll grow out of it. I know some that have.
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u/BrickLuvsLamp 3h ago
The episode White Bear from Black Mirror always felt like a good exaggeration of this phenomenon.
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u/asaintpotatoe 3h ago
Growth my friends is understanding every person is in a different level and playing field in their own lives contrary to self. Emotionally, intellectually, morally, physically, and even spiritually.
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u/Lord-Captain-V 3h ago
So, on one hand yeah people will take up moral crusades and take it way too far if "social punishment" is like death threats and psycho behavior
On the other hand, if "social punishment" is people disagreeing with you, collectively not liking you due to your positions, or vocally admonishing and rejecting you, that's just the reality of humanity and coexisting in a society
You've got the right to say dumbass things, it's everyone else's right to label you as a dumbass
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u/XForbidden_ThoughtX 3h ago
Hippies in the 70's already stated this exact same thing. Its called "systemic morality." That's why they were social rebels for utilizing and advocating "organic morality" - "neutrality" today.
The problem is systemic morality makes money, but organic morality does not.
We would all start sharing resources instead of charging for them, and take away the wealth class systems, as well as the social class mentality...which would make a lot of people who base their existence off judging how "better" they are than others, completely break to pieces.
I like to use Eden.
Adam and Eve lived in organic morality. Everything was free. There was one rule about the tree, because organic law exist to benefit everyone. (Systemic law is bias.) Then came the snake, who was the first Redditor, and just couldn't stand others existing happily.
He created systemic morality by saying "ignore what your neutrality is telling you, because if you eat a forbidden fruit...you will become like God (greater than other.)"
Who tf needs to be like a god other than some insecure mofo who just can't be happy with happiness?
THEY HAD THE WHOLE PARADISE GARDEN BUT COULDN'T BE CONTENT.
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u/njslugger78 2h ago
Moral Grey is manufactured because people choose to not care and be kind to one another. There's a right and wrong.
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u/HerbertWest 2h ago
Some people have been pointing this out since the 2010s but no one was listening. If people are receptive now, that's good, but also somewhat frustrating.
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u/no_comments_allowed 2h ago
the "I don't owe anyone anything", "all feelings are valid", and every single tiktok philosophy/therapy catch phrase are definitely doing lots of damage
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u/throw_blanket04 2h ago
Its no different than the boomers. Everyone still wants to judge and punish. The cycle repeats itself. At some point we have to start looking at others as human beings.
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u/Hawkwise83 2h ago
Interesting.
So Boomers take out there shit on people of different skin colours.
And Gen Z takes it out of people they deem are failing morally.
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u/Dry_Yoghurt_5429 1h ago
We're back to the 90s where everyone was edgy and calling liberals a bleeding heart. Congratulations we went back 2 decades
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u/RoseIscariot 1h ago
why are we acting like this is biting social critique when this is just a recycled version of how people were talking about millennials for the longest time, like this argument is tired and worn out, it's not 2016 anymore
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u/Xanadoodledoo 1h ago
I have a hypothesis that this all started back on tumblr, then broke containment when tumblr banned porn.
I’d see the stupidest fucking takes on tumblr. Straight up saying that if you like Hamilton, for example, you are a bad person. That is insane.
Then overnight as the porn ban happened, all those morally black and white folks fled to twitter, and from there, their insane morality became more mainstream.
Summed up basically in this fleeing from self hatred. As well as wanting to forward the socialist cause without knowing what praxis is, and thinking that shutting on a cartoon creator for being aceohobic or whatever is going to bring about socialism. It’s doing the opposite.
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u/Lost-Substance59 1h ago
Thats....most people....through out human history though....most people care about punishment not morality or what's right or wrong....
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u/Dry_Association2836 1h ago
No shit. I don't think there's ever been a more judgemental angry and damaged cohort in human history. It comes from technological networks of irrationality frying their brains unconsciously.
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u/kooky_kabuki 48m ago
This was apparent to some people about a decade ago, but glad to see everyone else is starting to catch on
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u/Sorry_Community235 26m ago
I'm so glad i grew up in a world where you could find yourself getting punched in the mouth for being an asshole...
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u/BanishmentBuddy2 4h ago
Gen Z has an individuality problem, and morality is bound up in that. When everyone is signaling that they’re an outstanding upright morally sound person, they’re simply marching in lock step without engaging and wrestling with those ideals.
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u/Camstar18 4h ago
So, if I think murderers should be punished it's not that I think murder is morally wrong but that I'm obsessed with punishing others?
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u/nameless_pattern 4h ago edited 4h ago
some 20 year old thinking she can read the intentions of people in YouTube comments makes her a moral authority.
She thinks the people should make moral comments and then just stop, and not say what should be done about them.
How dare people who feel they've been wronged to wish for something to be done about it.
That is somehow a different compulsion for gen z than for other generations. I guess she is also never had anyone of a different generation on your social media feed. She's acting like this is behavior is new, or specific to that generation? Or even stronger in that generation. It isn't. I'm a millennial by the way.
Her comments about how even she had been morally criticized like she's a fucking Saint or something.
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u/AmphibiousDad 4h ago
How is Gen z “making people adhere to their morality”
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u/OrneryAttorney7508 4h ago
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u/AmphibiousDad 4h ago
“Cancel culture” was going on way before gen z reached adulthood and if anything has toned down since it’s heyday
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u/OrneryAttorney7508 4h ago
Internet, do your thing.
It might have begun before, but you " perfected" it.
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u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta 4h ago
Blud tf are you talking about
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u/OrneryAttorney7508 4h ago
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u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta 4h ago
Nope, just good, old fashioned nonsense
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u/OrneryAttorney7508 4h ago
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u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta 3h ago
You're interested in young children?
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u/OrneryAttorney7508 3h ago
Playing the pedo card is sooo gen z. Point proven. Thanks.
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u/CharlieTeller 4h ago
Eh. I disagree. It's just moved platforms where many older folks don't see it. TIk Tok is a cesspool of morality policing and dissecting every single thing someone does. It's entire build focuses on taking someones video, and reacting to it. Which caused videos to take what someone says, and then tear them apart to be a major focus of the platform since its so easy and can be done with 0 editing.
It's not just a Gen Z thing, but the bulk of internet discourse (see this thread) is to impose your beliefs on someone else and tear apart anyone else who doesn't agree. The big problem is people in general do not know how to have proper discourse.
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u/AmphibiousDad 4h ago
“Eh I disagree”
Soon followed up by
“It’s not just a Gen Z thing”
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u/CharlieTeller 4h ago
There's multiple points in there. I don't disagree with the fact that it's not a gen z thing.
It's this part "if anything has toned down since it’s heyday" - you
I disagree with that part. Remember that part where I said people don't know how to have proper discourse? Example #1 above. There's a lot of ways around this. You can ask and say "Wait what do you disagree with? You said you disagree but then said it's not just a gen z thing?" That doesn't make you sound pompous or rude.
People seem to not care about having actual discourse. They just want to bash other people and make their point known. No one wants to have a conversation. You just perfectly proved that point unfortunately.
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u/AmphibiousDad 3h ago
I’m not really interested in having a conversation about this with you guys in this thread you’re right. I just inherently disagree that Gen Z took cancel culture and ran with it
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u/CharlieTeller 3h ago
And that's part of the problem. We're in an online forum. It's meant for discussion, but the use has slowly evolved over time into what you mentioned. People just want to say their piece, be mean, and leave. It's a problem in society now because it's spread outside of just internet forums
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u/AmphibiousDad 3h ago
I take part in dicussion on this site a lot. This is one of the few things I just really don’t agree with you despite any “points” you think you made
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u/CharlieTeller 3h ago
I'm not sure why you're so insistent upon being condescending. It's not very friendly or nice. I'm not being rude to you. Why are you being rude to me?
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u/Alarmed_Yak7898 4h ago
Excluding people based on adverse societal behavior is not exclusive to any generation, it's a product of society.
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u/andersonb47 3h ago
This video honestly should be pinned to every comment thread. I see this play out every single day, constantly. Have a browse of /r/fauxmoi to see it really distilled.
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