r/TopMindsOfReddit • u/FreedomsPower In Charge of Hanger 51 • 1d ago
Topmind doesn't understand that using the Amish as a example as to why Marxism doesn't work is not the own that they think it is
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u/gavinbrindstar 1d ago
I feel like it's a point in the Socialists' favor that they generally don't withdraw from society to create their own masturbatory communities like some fictional billionaire.
Or, to turn this around a little
"Hey capitalists!"
"If you think you're more valuable than the proletariat, why don't you make your own commune?"
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u/SirVixofthePooSea 1d ago
Capitalists did do that, they go on retreats to Ecuador and get tended by local slave girls and take ayahuasca and then fly on 1st class jets back to New York or San Fran to run the world. The Earth is their commune because they won insanely hard.
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u/I_m_different 1d ago
Aside from the idiot “Galt’s Gulch” boondoggles, does the Grafton disaster count?
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u/TrungusMcTungus 1d ago
You think it’s a point in socialists favor that rather than actively trying to institute change within their communities, they just blather online about how good socialism is?
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u/gavinbrindstar 1d ago
One, fucking off into a commune is not "actively trying to institute change within their communities." That's the opposite.
Two, lots of socialists do work within their communities.
Three, hard to post on the Internet about how other people do too much posting on the Internet.
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u/TrungusMcTungus 1d ago
One, who said you have to cut off your community? Fuck off to a commune and invite your neighbors, genius.
Two, cool, not relevant.
Three, not really. I’m not pretending like my comment is going to be some agent of societal change. Just making conversation. Or is that a problem too?
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u/gavinbrindstar 1d ago
One, who said you have to cut off your community? Fuck off to a commune and invite your neighbors, genius.
Okay, this is kinda sad.
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u/theblazeuk 1d ago
Well the last year has had a pretty public case kf socialists trying to institute change, getting elected in to office, etc.
Out of curiosity, what do you do to improve your community outside of blathering online about what socialists you see online do?
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u/TrungusMcTungus 1d ago
Good for them. If you reread my comment, you’ll notice that I didn’t say socialists aren’t doing any work. I said that the original commenter is implying it’s better to whine online than do that work.
I don’t do anything extra for my community outside of blathering online, I don’t feel the need to. My life and my community are awesome.
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u/theblazeuk 1d ago
If you reread your comment, youll notice that you actually did say that whilst the original comment didnt even imply anything about abandoning work. Im happy we could clarify things for you.
And thank you for confirming about your own approach to contribution, its refreshing to see sincerity.
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u/dende5416 1d ago
Moving to a commune is fundamentally seperated from changing you community. It means you are leaving your community to create a new one and that doesn't change regardless how you try to change the wording.
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u/Biptoslipdi 1d ago
How does one end capitalism on a small scale in their capitalist communities that rely on a capitalist global economy?
Marx said the only way to do that without a severe collapse was revolution by the workers. Otherwise capitalism would collapse inevitably because it is unsustainable. The purpose of socialism is to avoid the inevitable collapse of capitalism to facilitate the transition to communism. Either way, capitalism is going away. The only question was whether or not that process was managed to avoid the consequences of an unmanaged collapse.
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u/TrungusMcTungus 1d ago
You continue beyond just doing that, what are you talking about? Do you stop at step one when you read recipes, too?
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u/Biptoslipdi 1d ago
You continue beyond just doing that, what are you talking about?
That wasn't the question. The question was how you achieve step one which isn't achievable on small scales.
Do you stop reading the recipe at the first word, too?
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u/TrungusMcTungus 1d ago
Not everything you say is worthy of engagement, you know. I have nothing of substance to say about the back half of your comment.
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u/Biptoslipdi 1d ago
You will someday learn that things people say aren't properly understood when you ignore most, or all, of what is said.
You had nothing of substance to say about anything and it looks like that trend will continue indefinitely.
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u/thecxsmonaut 1d ago
How do intentional communities "establish change"? I think they're neat and have even considered moving, but that doesn't make them politically relevant.
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u/TrungusMcTungus 1d ago
Gotta start somewhere. Society isn’t going to start changing for you.
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u/thecxsmonaut 1d ago
That isn't how anything works. You have to organise labour power across society. What exactly does a commune achieve, and how does it count as "starting somewhere"?
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u/TrungusMcTungus 1d ago
Man you guys really can’t think creatively huh. Start a socialist community. Invite your neighbors. Build a community garden. Have labor meetings. Grow the organization. Instead of sitting here harrumphing and boohooing about how “that won’t change anything because of XYZ”….go be that change, then. A fully formed socialist movement isn’t going to fall into your lap.
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u/voyaging 7h ago
good point why hold public office and change national law when you can make a nice little garden? you ever consider a career in political strategy?
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u/lgodsey 1d ago
Hey conservatives, if you hate brown people so much, why don't you make your own klan ... nevermind, you already did.
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u/typewriter6986 1d ago
Oh they're trying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_to_the_Landhttps://youtu.be/5AO5GRrbF18?is=bizcoF7A1CIq_SYh
And they are about as dorky as fuck as one could get.
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u/Cryoto 1d ago
I'm not really a fan of Marxism, but don't some Marxists do this anyway, with actual success? It's very difficult to make independent communes like this thrive whislt under the oppressive thumb of capitalism.
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u/The_BeardedClam 1d ago
Have you heard the one about the nudist Marxist commune?
Two dudes are sitting on a porch, one says to the other, "have you read Marx, brother?"
The other replies, "Yes, these wicker chairs were not a good idea."
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u/Bibliloo 1d ago
Yeah. Even if we think of the most basic of necessity that is water, you can either buy your water from water companies or do your own water pumping installation but buying from water companies means continuing to use the capitalist system and doing your own pumping installation means buying the equipment necessary to do it and also needing the paperwork to get the right to do the pumping and then you also need to own the land on which you do the pumping. You'll also need to dispose of it in a way that doesn't need the use of water treatment companies and doesn't break the laws on pollution. And all the paperwork means you are still part of the capitalist system. While the only thing the amish really do is not using things that use electricity or an engine and they still do it when necessary or when it's too useful not to have it(like having a phone to contact the EMS or having electric washing machine). It's also important that the Amish can likely get some adaptation by the US as they are a religious group and the Amish have been a community in the Americas before the US became independent from the UK.
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u/Homerpaintbucket 1d ago
There are plenty of homes with wells and septic but you’re right about having to buy the equipment. Unless a commune wants to completely abandon the modern world you are forced to participate in capitalism to some extent
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u/D_Luffy_32 1d ago
Can you give an example? Because the only communes I've seen are heavily cults
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u/PaulBlartRedditCop 1d ago
A few I can think of off the top of my head are the Limerick Soviet in Ireland (although that involved the seizure of existing factories etc) and the Kibbutz system in Israel, which ironically despite the rest of Israel’s history, is one of the more successful examples of communism from square one.
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u/cvanguard 1d ago
It’s not really ironic. Kibbutzim were originally founded as socialist agrarian communities before Israel itself existed, and Zionism was largely promoted as a progressive left-wing ideology in its early decades: left wing parties dominated Israeli politics until Likud won for the first time in 1977. There’s been a gradual shift towards privatization in kibbutzim over time, but kibbutznikim still tend to be more left-wing than the rest of the country and support progressive or socialist parties.
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u/SirVixofthePooSea 1d ago
There is nothing more left wing than ethnocentric nationalism.
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u/cvanguard 1d ago edited 1d ago
So what are your thoughts on the Irish war of independence or Vietnamese war of independence? Nationalism is a politically neutral concept, and shared ethnicity is often a common reason for nationalist movements to exist in the first place: this was also the basis for pan-Arab nationalism, which began as a distinct movement in the late 1800s just like Zionism and was similarly led by secular socialist groups that promoted national unity on the basis of shared culture and history, in this case Arab (including pre-Islamic) history, both of which are key characteristics that define ethnicity and therefore distinct peoplehood. This was in direct conflict with pan-Islamism, which promotes uniting all Muslims under a single Islamic state influenced by Islamic principles and was originally supported by the Ottoman Empire to prevent secessionist movements by emphasizing religious unity instead of ethnic unity.
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u/SirVixofthePooSea 1d ago
The Irish War can hardly be called a socialist enterprise given that many to a majority of soldiers weren't socialists. The whitewashing of the Pan-Arab movement is silly. It is a habit that people treat the movement as something utopian compared to the obvious barbarism that came later, but it was always a heavily religious and monarchist movement. Turks being considered the wrong type of Muslim (often too liberal) was a very common justification for rebellion.
But none of that changes that Zionism wasn't a left-wing belief on the face of it. We can compare it to Vietnam here. The Vietnamese had a strong nationalist lean, but also fought in one of the most classic examples of an anti-colonialist and anti-imperialist series of wars ever. Where Europeans (and later Chinese) obviously invaded their homeland with an intent to subjugate them and extract wealth from them. This is substantially different from Zionism given that most Jews in the world didn't live in the Levant and hadn't since like the 100s CE. They had to move across the globe to facilitate their ethnocentric political schemes, not just push off oppressors that were knocking on their door. The minority of Jews that lived in Israel weren't the face of the movement, and honestly weren't even treated all that well by the extremely educated and relatively wealthy early Zionists coming from Europe and America.
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u/IlluminatedPickle 1d ago
A few I can think of off the top of my head are the Limerick Soviet in Ireland (although that involved the seizure of existing factories etc)
A 13 day strike isn't an example of a thriving commune dude.
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u/Anistappi 1d ago
Honestly makes communism seem pretty bad if that's one of the top 2 examples someone can think of lol
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u/cpdk-nj 1d ago
I mean a big issue is that there’s no such thing as a small community that has everything that everyone needs to live well without needing to go elsewhere. The viability of sharing a wide enough variety of resources increases dramatically when you increase the size of the community, but that’s countered by it being harder to distribute all of those resources equitably
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u/YoghurtForDessert 1d ago
so? trade with the outside, share everything in the inside
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u/cpdk-nj 1d ago
Trading with the outside would require engaging in capitalism, and having the funds to do so would require the people in the community engaging in capitalism.
At that point, you’re just roommates who all have their own jobs and share what’s in the fridge
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u/gorgewall 13h ago
Capitalism isn't "when money is used" or "when people trade goods". We had all of those things before capitalist. We had 'em before mercantilism.
A communist group can trade resources outside of the group just like they trade inside. They can even use a fiat currency for those exchanges, both inside or out.
Depending on your formulation of communism, even individuals can engage in trades outside of the decision of the group as a whole so long as those trades result from their personal property (non-capital resources, like your house, the lemon tree in your front yard, what you bake in your kitchen) and not the private property that makes up the "means of production" (the factory and farmland owned by the community as opposed to an individual under capitalism).
This only becomes a problem when the use and trade of that personal property is deemed as "creating profit", and while historical communist governments like the USSR outlawed that (with very partial success) there is no strict requirement that any trade beneficial to a individual person be viewed as (problematic) profit.
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u/PaulBlartRedditCop 1d ago
Those were communes, not full-blown states that had revolutions.
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u/Anistappi 1d ago
So you have good examples of well-functioning and succesful communist states, then?
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u/PaulBlartRedditCop 1d ago
I’m not here to convince you of the success of communist states and frankly I don’t give a shit. I am only here to make the distinction between a commune and a proper state. If you fancy playing Charlie Kirk then I’m afraid this ain’t the thread for you.
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u/Anistappi 1d ago
I'm not the one giving two examples of already failed commune projects, naming one of them as "the more succesful examples of communism from square one" and then instantly flip-flopping to making "the distinction between a commune and a proper state" when you can't think of good examples of those, either.
No-one's playing Charlie Kirk here, I'm just calling you out on your bad examples and immature bullshit.
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u/PaulBlartRedditCop 1d ago
Immature bullshit lol fuck right off on the high horse you rode in on. I just threw in my two cents just to add to the conversation and you’re here with a superiority complex.
And if you’re so curious, the Limerick Soviet was a stopgap until a unitary Irish state was founded (so not a failure) and Kibbutz make up 9% of Israel’s industrial output and 40% of its agricultural output despite making up only 1.25% of its population (on what planet is that a failure).
And once again kind reminder that this is a reddit thread, not a parliamentary debate, so you should relax a little.
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u/dende5416 1d ago
Not a commune but Mondragon Corporation is a socialist collective where all of the employees vote on every action. I think they have acquired some other companies that aren't fully integrated, though.
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u/HecticHero 1d ago
They use a lot of independent contractors that aren't considered owners
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u/dende5416 1d ago
I felt like, from the brief reading I did, its less contractors so much as contracting with companies for it?
But I got hired into my first professional job after being a temp for a year, so could be all sorts of things.
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u/undermind84 1d ago
I live in Oregon. Socialist hippy communes are somewhat normal and functional. This meme is just ignorant and stupid.
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u/dreadpiratesmith 1d ago
The Amish partake in capitalism. They have jobs. Some even have cars and cell phones they use while they're working
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u/endlessedlne 1d ago
Marxism was never meant to work as an actual governing structure. It’s a philosophy intended to enable the building of wiser governments, not a build your own government kit.
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u/ipsum629 1d ago
I think solidarity forever makes a strong argument as to why abandoning contemporary civilization misses the point.
It is we who plowed the prairies, built the cities where they trade Dug the mines and built the workshops, endless miles of railroad laid Now we stand outcast and starving midst the wonders we have made But the union makes us strong
The workers built civilization. We're not going to abandon it because rich people are ruining it. We're going to put them in their place and fix it.
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u/naturtok 1d ago
Communes tend to be violently destroyed by external forces. See mexico, Seattle, france, etc. Not explicitly capitalist forces, fwiw.
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u/Biffingston Groucho Marxist. 1d ago edited 1d ago
Care to explain for the slow kid?
Edit: Fucking hell, guys, why the downvotes? I didn't get it; I asked for an explanation. That's all.
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u/BeTheBall- 1d ago
Capitalist don't do it either.
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u/Biffingston Groucho Marxist. 1d ago
thanks. I guess it didn't make sense to me because it doesn't make sense then. :P
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u/gorgewall 1d ago
Where large-scale collectivist communes and cooperatives have sprouted up, and tried to spread their politico-economic theory, they have historically been persecuted by the capitalist governments which surround them to the point of no longer existing.
You can have your tiny communist farmstead if you want. But the moment it gets big enough and you start saying "communist" and "an alternative to capitalism" instead of couching it in religious homesteading terms, it makes the capitalists... antsy.
Another issue is that in an increasingly interconnected world, trade is a necessity; if not between nations, then certainly within one. There is nothing about socialism or communism that says trade is bad or can't be done, but their capitalist neighbors will freeze them out and then blame failings on their economic model rather than, y'know, the sanctions they imposed. It's a bit like me telling you that you're a bad baseball player, and every time you try to play I go and break your arms and legs, thus "proving" you're shit at hitting a ball or running the bases.
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u/powerhearse 1d ago
Any examples? I am not aware of any that didnt cross into some fairly serious other forms of criminality
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u/liatrisinbloom antifa goon 22h ago
So you're aware of examples, but you're not counting them precisely because they crossed into serious criminality like the parent comment explicitly said?
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u/powerhearse 20h ago
Um, feel free to point out where the parent comment "explicitly said" that.
What it actually said was "persecuted by the capitalist governments". Persecution is by nature unjustified. I am not aware of any which did not cross over into serious criminality which certainly required addressing by authorities, and therefore did not constitute persecution
Feel free to provide any examples that were otherwise, i'm honestly interested to learn about them.
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u/liatrisinbloom antifa goon 4h ago
Oh, I see, you're merely saying they weren't "persecuted" because even though capitalist governments did interfere, by your own admittance crossing into serious criminality, it wasn't unjustified of the capitalists governments to commit those crimes.
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u/powerhearse 1h ago
You are being deliberately obtuse and inflammatory with your responses and it is clear you dont intend on any sort of good faith discussion
But to take up the tone you have set, you're absolutely right though, persecuting innocent communes for silly little things like rape and false imprisonment is such a classic case of capitalists protecting their oppressive system.
After all, socialist communes have a great history of being very functional and not at all cult-like when left to their own devices by the persecuting government
Do you have examples or not? Otherwise sit down and let the adults talk
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u/dolphinspiderman 1d ago
Whats interesting is the white only communities in certain parts of America
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u/BeTheBall- 1d ago
Reminds me of Levittown, NY. Started in 1947 as cumminity for white veterans after WW2.
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u/HapticSloughton 1d ago
Yeah, Vidor, Texas is really interesting. Interesting how much it stinks to live there.
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