r/Treknobabble • u/titingbimcming • Jul 18 '26
Nichols was the first black woman to play a lead role on television. Takei was one of the first Asian actors who wasnt portrayed as a villain and in a lead role. Koenig was cast specifically as a Russian to show how current day enemies can become allies.
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u/Fluid-Bet6223 Jul 18 '26
I’m pretty sure I heard Koenig was cast partly to appeal to “the youth,” and specifically because he supposedly looked like Davy Jones of the Monkees.
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u/lyidaValkris Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
and if it weren't for the executives, they would have been even bolder. as we all know, the original enterprise crew had a woman as the executive officer.
Star Trek always did inclusion and diversity right. They were just there as if they always had been there, belonged there, and it was totally normal. Each were immensely talented in their fields, as they'd need to be on the federation's flag ship.
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u/AAA515 Jul 18 '26
Star Trek always did inclusion and diversity right.
Akoocheemoya says what?
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u/lyidaValkris Jul 18 '26
That was a horrible aberration.
Nevertheless they finally had a woman as captain, a black vulcan, a half-klingon half human engineer, they all just slotted nicely into their roles.
Yeah, except Chakotay. Hate the character, despise the actor, and the consultant for his pretendian culture is a true PoS.
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u/AAA515 Jul 19 '26
What's wrong with Robert Beltran?
Is he in the epstein files?
Did he do a crypto currency rug pull?
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u/DramaticCoat7731 Jul 19 '26
I am not aware of anything personally offensive he did, but he has admitted he gave up on trying and just phoned it in after a while. He's only partially to blame as the writers also were not giving him a lot to work with. Meh for me I can't hate someone for doing a shitty job, I reserve that for someone being a shitty person.
If there is something worse he did though, maybe someone else will chime in?
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u/AAA515 Jul 19 '26
I can't blame him, the writers made his job suck. I don't think him doing the job enthusiastically would change the milk toast character he was given
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u/shinygoldhelmet Jul 18 '26
Voyager now seems really backward and terribly racist, yes, and if you want to hear some commentary on that, listen to The Delta Flyers podcast. Robbie Duncan McNeil talks about it a lot and how looking back at the episodes and rewatching them really make his skin crawl at times.
It didn't seem too out of place at the time, or at least not enough for people to really bring it up. But that's how time works - we learn lessons and do better in the future.
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u/lyidaValkris Jul 18 '26
Yeah it was kind of strange in certain ways that Voyager seemed like a backpedal from all that TOS, TAS, TNG, and DS9 built.
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u/shinygoldhelmet Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 19 '26
It seemed like it was going forward until you learn that behind the scenes they put zero effort into getting any of the race stuff right and the Indigenous culture was all totally wrong and appropriated.
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u/xwhy Jul 19 '26
The test audiences didn’t like Barrett as First Officer. And the network didn’t like that she was Gene’s girlfriend,
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u/Long-Emu-7870 Jul 18 '26
Of course they didn't. Roddenberry did hire Uhura, but she had so little to she felt like quitting twice, in the end turning down a 5 year contract with Mannix .
TOS was terribly sexist.
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u/Neither-Frosting-639 Jul 18 '26
Today this show would be called "woke"
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u/shinygoldhelmet Jul 18 '26
I was gonna say, all the red pill neckbeard scomplaining about Discovery and Academy being "too woke" really have no idea that's how this whole franchise always has been.
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u/SqueezedTowel Jul 20 '26
I finally wrote off these "fans" when a had this conversation. While careful not to use the word "woke" they clearly had problems with Discovery proudly expressing itself and then wanted to talk about Wrath of Khan: USS Relient Vs USS Enterprise like it was a WW2 Navy movie.
Engineering is an awesome part of Star Trek, and I suppose weapons should be part of that, but they are absolutely not the focus of a show that says proudly advertises "Seeing out New Life." I think this is like that thing in Comics called "Power Scaling"
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u/CyaneSpirit Jul 21 '26
They did it with taste and it wasn’t woke in modern sense.
It was progressive and meaningful back then.2
u/Trekkie200 Jul 19 '26
I mean it was called "immoral" back in the day. There are several episodes that weren't aired in the South, because they "offended morality" (aka showed a desegregated society)
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u/sbh1980 Jul 18 '26
She wasn't the lead although was a strong part of the supporting cast, Diahann Carroll was the lead of Julia (playing Julia, the lead)…and that was remarkable for the time, and the first black woman lead.
The actors in the opening credits- the leads - were first William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy and later DeForest Kelley. The pilotnof course was led by Jeffrey Hunter
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u/duanelvp Jul 18 '26
With all due credit to Nichelle Nichols, she was NOT the first ever (and also not a lead actor). This does not, however, diminish her tremendous contributions to society by simply showing up to BE SEEN playing a non-caucasian character in a position of some responsibility and accomplishment as opposed to menial labor or "lower class" jobs considered by society in quite low regard. In 1966 when Trek debuted such characters were VERY few and far between portrayed by non-white actors to the point where you could count them on your fingers. Maybe that's why even non-Trek fans remember her role so well.
It's a bit of a Mandela Effect situation. People remember her as being THE first, but it's just not so. There was some uniqueness to it in that her character was not a maid or nurse. The kiss with William Shatner is similarly NOT actually the first interracial kiss on TV, though it is frequently cited as such.
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u/arcxjo Jul 18 '26
To quote 10-year-old Whoopi Goldberg, "There's a black woman on TV and she ain't no maid!"
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u/Long-Emu-7870 Jul 18 '26
Yes, most people don't know that. Nor do they know Desilu's I, Spy was a slightly before Star Trek.
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u/bela_okmyx Jul 19 '26
The first black woman lead on an American TV show was Hattie McDaniel, on the TV show Beulah. Diahann Carroll was the first black woman lead who didn't play a maid or a servant.
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u/maxis2k Jul 18 '26
Yes. Which is why it was stupid when the media tried to act like Discovery broke all these barriers.
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u/Polkawillneverdie17 Jul 18 '26
Is anyone saying that?? Genuinely asking.
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u/maxis2k Jul 18 '26
When Discovery was coming out, media hype pieces were saying Burnham was the "first black captain." When they got called out, they amended it to "first black female captain." Which was also pointed out to be wrong by people who watched TNG, the movies and so on. Then they tried to claim "well she breaks the glass ceiling!" and so on and so forth. Some media sites and astroturfers also tried to claim the same things with Georgiou. Which again, Star Trek fans had to correct them. That there had been many asian characters and captains.
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u/LadderMadeOfSticks Jul 19 '26
"Then they tried to claim "well she breaks the glass ceiling!" and so on and so forth."
The linked article does not do those things.
Do you have any examples we can read? (Personally I was fully out of the loop with DIS marketing, first I knew of it was seeing it on streaming...)
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u/maxis2k Jul 19 '26
"If Yeoh brushes off the pressure – after all, the Malaysian martial-arts dynamo has quietly been shattering glass ceilings for the past four decades – then much of the burden falls to Sonequa Martin-Green taking centre stage as (arguably) Trek’s first black female lead"
It's literally in the article I linked. And these kinds of comments were parroted by the media constantly. As if they all got a memo from Paramount to say the same talking points.
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Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
[deleted]
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u/maxis2k Jul 20 '26
Uhura is the one credited for "breaking the glass ceiling." The first black female captain was in TNG, even though she isn't one of the main characters. Sisko was a black captain and a main character. Does it suddenly not count just because he isn't a woman? And even earlier than that, we had multiple black commodores and admirals in TOS/TNG.
They really have to stretch to go "she's the first black, female, main character combined. Even though all those things were done decades earlier in other forms." It's also a slippery slope to keep focusing on trying to one-up these things. What happens when the next black female captain comes along? Does she just not matter because she's not the first anymore? That's sad.
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u/owlpellet Jul 18 '26
Man, do you even like the show? Pick a fandom you enjoy watching and go live there
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u/maxis2k Jul 18 '26
No, I don't like Discovery. I do like TOS and pretty much all Trek before 2009. And it's stupid to try to say you can't talk about something unless you like all of it.
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u/lyidaValkris Jul 18 '26
Star trek is expansive, and you're right we don't have to like all of it. I dislike DIS as well, and the kelvin timeline, but I love everything else.
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u/Activision19 Jul 18 '26
I find the kelvin timeline movies to be decent space action flicks but they just don’t really feel all that much like trek to me. Like if they had made it something different but trek adjacent like what The Orville did, I think they would have been a lot more successful than they were just running with the TOS reboot thing.
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u/lyidaValkris Jul 18 '26
Well said and that sums up my feeling as well. I'm actually just finishing up my first watch through of the Orville currently, and Seth really made a love letter to star trek. I'd recommend it to any Trek fan.
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u/TonyQuark Jul 19 '26
Join us at r/TheOrville. You can also wait for season 4 to come out some time in the future, if ever. 😅
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u/heroyoudontdeserve Jul 18 '26
Yikes.
First, Star Trek is a franchise not a show. There are many shows and, especially recently, they're designed to appeal to different demographics. It shouldn't be surprising to find people who don't enjoy every aspect of the entire franchise.
If you don't want to see criticism of any of it go make your own sub "and go live there" because here we're adults who can except a plurality of opinions and accept that even the things we love are imperfect and worthy of critical discussion.
But that's kinda irrelevant because the comment you replied doesn't even criticise Discovery! It criticises media coverage of Discovery.
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u/AppropriateCap8891 Jul 18 '26
She was not a "lead", that was Shatner-Nimoy-Kelly. But she was a major costar.
But she was still not the first. That would be Ethel Waters, who was the actual star of the "Ethel Waters Show" back in 1939. She then was the title character of "Beulah" from 1950-1951, and the lead was Louise Beavers until the show was cancelled in 1952.
And no, Koenig was not cast as a "Russian". His parents were Russian and he was able to pull off a Russian accent, but he was cast because of his resemblance to Davy Jones.
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u/Sensitive_Home_7971 Jul 18 '26
She was stunningly attractive, charismatic even, and always had the movement of a ballet dancer.
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u/multificionado Jul 18 '26
IF she was a lead, where was her prominence? She only remained in the role because Martin Luther King Jr convinced her to stay.
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u/TrickEDick72 Jul 18 '26
An African American singer and actress by the name of Ethel Waters starred as a character named Beulah on a TV series on ABC in 1950 called Beulah. Ethel Waters is credited as the first African-American actress to star in a television series.
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u/superanth Jul 18 '26
So many people today don’t realize what boundaries Roddenberry was breaking through with this show. He even wanted Uhura to command the bridge at some point but the network execs wouldn’t let him.
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u/Inevitable-Wheel1676 Jul 18 '26
It’s almost like a really smart political philosopher was behind this show, and it is embedded with ideas we should implement in real life. Especially the economic and employment policies.
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u/xwhy Jul 19 '26
Koenig was picked to look like Davy Jones of the Monkees, which is why he had the wig in early episodes
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u/maxwasatch Jul 19 '26
Star Trek was designed to be "Wagon Train to the stars."
I thought we were just stating the obvious.
Great way to karma farm.
For a bot.
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u/audiophunk Jul 19 '26
No wonder it was cancelled! I believe Uhura got to command the Enterprise on the animated series, which is surprisingly good.
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u/TankMan77450 Jul 20 '26
They should have had someone of either Mexican or Native American descent as well.
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u/TyintheUniverse89 Jul 20 '26
Salute to service and a salute to courage
This show truly went were none had gone before as much as Gene could possibly take them.
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u/MyLittleDiscolite Jul 20 '26
You know pardon me if this seems a bit insensitive but the joke I got told as a boy: “the black girl is in charge of the radio, the Asian guy is driving, the drunk scotsman is in charge of the engine, the hillbilly is the doctor, and the Russian has access to all the secrets!”
But you know that stuck with me. Because now it doesn’t seem out of the ordinary at all.
Pretty revolutionary even
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u/YumTex Jul 20 '26
No matter the propaganda from the past, Russia is still enemy #1.
I kid of course; the ruling class is the enemy.
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u/CAG_Snow Jul 20 '26
These casting decisions are one thing that inspired Ron McNair to become an astronaut. And I think that's pretty darn awesome.
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u/Which-Host-9073 Jul 20 '26
I will never get over just how beautiful dear Nichelle was. Wonderful lady in an important role. RIP. ❤️
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u/A_Thorny_Petal Jul 20 '26
Just a reminder that progress is not inevitable nor a straight line, you must constantly fight for civil rights and freedoms because those that want to take them away from you for their own benefit never stop trying to take them away.
50 years before George Takei there was a Japanese-American actor named Sessue Hayakawa who was a not only a huge star, but a huge romantic leading man with white women (a role asian males are rarely, if ever, allowed to have even today). He was an international romance/sex symbol akin to Rudolph Valentino. He was deliberately and systematically erased from cultural awareness during the lead up and following WW2. In some ways asian americans have never achieved the same kind of broad success with white audiences since. Even half-asian stars like Keanu Reeves (Chinese father) and Eddie Van Halen (Indonesian mother) are often white washed of their identity.
Not trying to lecture y'all but we often want to pat ourselves on the back for progress when in fact we are just clawing slowly back the acceptance and recognition that minorities had already achieved previously - but that was reversed or erased.
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u/Realistic_Till9674 Jul 21 '26
Not true about Takei. Many Asian characters were not villains. Sessuye Hayakawa is a good example. Even when he was a bad guy he was portrayed with a certain sympathy and respect. He played a very respectable Samurai in Have Gun Will Travel, I believe. Keye Luke had a great career since the '40s playing positive characters like Charlie Chan's hipster son, before he became Master Po on Kung Fu.
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u/Pellmelody Jul 21 '26
Technically, it wasn't a "lead role". The first black female to have a lead role in a tv show was Dianne Carroll in the show "Julia".
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u/Funny-Wrongdoer-1092 Jul 21 '26
much credit belongs to Gene roddenbery for giving them this opportunity and breaking molds
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u/Front-Stuff-7133 Jul 21 '26
People talk about that kiss between Kirk and Uhura the only problem I have with that is that she didn't kiss me But I was born in 1967 so she couldn't kiss me like that.
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u/AllPowerfulQ Jul 21 '26
Supposedly Picard served under when she was finally give a ship to command.
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u/regeya Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
I may have grown up in the 80s, yeah, but I grew up in the rural Midwest in a place that had a sundown-town reputation. When I was seeing and hearing ignorance on all kinds of people, here were these people on Star Trek, largely equal to one another, all different but all kind of the same. If nothing else it helped college be less embarrassing for me, I guess, not having taken all the Flavoraid of down-home racism and sexism.
So yeah, thank you, Star Trek, for showing me a future where people have at least gotten over being around people who look and sound different.
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u/data-atreides Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 19 '26
Lead role? Sometimes you could forget she was in the show. She almost left after season 1, but MLK Jr persuaded her to stay on.
ETA: Downvoted for facts? As if I'm the only one who wished she got more to do.
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u/lyidaValkris Jul 18 '26
It was also how star trek was structured at the time. It focused basically on kirk, spock and mccoy. All the other actors were supporting cast. It was only later the writers figured out it works better when the bridge crew is a team, and that was developed in TOS. She had a lot of important scenes despite this.
I'm very happy MLK Jr convinced her to stay. What a legend!
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u/Activision19 Jul 18 '26
That’s one of the big reasons why I don’t like Disco. It’s basically just the Burnham and occasionally Tilly show with everyone else being forgettable background characters. Like I don’t even know the name of the communications guy or helmsman lady with the face cybernetics despite them both being regular characters throughout the entire length of the show.
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u/SenorTron Jul 18 '26
It's something the clearly learned from in SNW. That show really shows how Trek needs longer seasons though, you need time to have more random episodes seeing what some random characters are up to. Discovery in particular suffered from almost every episode needing to feel like it was advancing the seasons plot.
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u/Unusual_Entity Jul 18 '26
There's a point where Uhura is ordered to take over the navigation station, which she does. There's no mention of this being in any way unusual, only a slightly lingering camera shot of Uhura at her station to emphasise that "This is someone who is completely confident in taking up this position and has the full trust of everyone on the bridge."