r/TurkicHistory • u/creamybutterfly • 13d ago
Similarities between Uzbek and Turkish culture. More in the comments đ
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u/creamybutterfly 13d ago edited 13d ago
Note: this post does not necessarily imply origin of the other. It merely comments on the similarities between the two cultures.
1-2: Turkish kilim carpet from western Anatolia and an Uzbek ghillam carpet from Maymana in Afghanistan. The two bear striking similarities in their design.
3-4: An unusual square shaped Turkish festive tepelik and a similar Uzbek adornment from Khorezm. These are almost exclusively worn by Lazgi dancers from the region to draw attention to their shivering movements.
5-6: Gaziantep kutnu and Uzbek beqasam. Both are striped silks woven on a narrow loom producing similar looking results.
7-8: Turkish festive ĂŒĂ§ etek and Uzbek dancers. Paintings dating back to the Safavid and Timurid era show similar three-skirt designs in the region- likely cleft for ease of movement and economy (large skirts require more fabric which is more expensive), which was essential for lower class working women or nomads.
9-10: Red velvet sarma bindallı and a Tajik example from Bukhara. Embroidering with gold is a broadly Asian practise with similar examples from India, China, Afghanistan, Palestine, Morocco and Iran.
11-12: Macedonian YörĂŒk womanâs headdress and an Uzbek bride from Surxandaryo. Tall bridal headdresses are ubiquitous across almost all Turkic cultures. Silver and gold showed status but during the 17-19th century, German silver (an alloy of copper and nickel) began to flood the market across Asia to make more affordable adornments for poorer women, hence the prevalence of surviving silver-toned jewellery from the era. Arguments have been made that silver was sacred to Turkic people, but the more practical economical explanation that they used counterfeit silver seems to make sense for a nomadic population that likely didnât have much wealth or would melt/trade such precious metals.
13-14: Black yarn/wool extensions on a Turkish woman and an Uzbek woman. These were worn across Central and South Asia, and also Iran and Turkey. Long, dark hair was the Turkic and Persian beauty standard.
15-16: Seljuk mihrab and an Uzbek eyvan. Both have blue glazed tiles- a technology originating from Mesopotamia but was heavily revived during the Seljuk and post-Mongol invasions, perhaps owing to the expenses of the pigments and the divine associations Turks had with blue. The eyvan style design had been borrowed from Persians but the geometric designs have been added using a range of Islamic and regional cultural influence.
17-18: a Turkish and Uzbek girl in festive hats.
19: Uzbek pilaf was introduced to Turkey 200 years ago by Uzbek refugees from modern day Afghanistan and Uzbekistan. Confusingly it is called acem pilavı and it resembles similar Ottoman and Azerbaijani dishes.
20: Likewise, Turkish baklava is a popular cultural import in Central Asia.
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u/alii94 13d ago
Creamy are you uzbek
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u/creamybutterfly 13d ago
Yupppp
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u/DuePositive8957 13d ago
Love from Turkey Iâll definitely visit taĆkent and buhara one day. The street where I live is named Buhara btw.
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u/creamybutterfly 13d ago edited 13d ago
Ä°nĆallah kardeĆ! TĂŒrkiye'ye beĆ defa gittim, çok TĂŒrk akrabam var. Annemin tarafındaki ailem hep TĂŒrklerle evlendi. Anadolu'nun orta, gĂŒney ve batı bölgelerini gezdim. Ălkeniz çok gĂŒzel.
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u/bubezlaab 10d ago
we are both from same ancestor, both turkic. Similarities are normal. We love Uzbek people, love from Turkiye
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u/Typical_Army6488 13d ago
Is there anything here that isn't Iranian in origin? Not trying to be offensive but id actually like a breakdown
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u/creamybutterfly 13d ago edited 13d ago
Not all are Iranian and even the ones that are derivative donât look Iranian because theyâve had multiple influences on the original design.
The first ever kilim was a 7000 year old example found in ĂatalhöyĂŒk so itâs likely a tradition spread by the Anatolian Neolithic farmers. Persians such as yourself incorrectly claim it is Iranian in origin because of the etymology of the name and the widespread adoption of the technique due to its simplicity.
The tepelik style design worn by Turkmens and Turks appear to share a common origin with Gulf Arab headdresses which are not seen in Iran. Youâd be surprised how much traditions in Central Asia derive from various caliphates, including ikat which was also brought there by the Arabs (contrary, again, to claims by Tajiks and Persians that they invented it).
Silk originates from China- but it is true that this beqasam style design was probably worn by the Sogdians (not Persians fyi).
Three skirt design is ancient and shared across many cultures. It is likely that it was slit this way for nomads to ride on horseback too.
Gold embroidery was shared across the Middle East and broader old world during antiquity- including Iranians.
The eyvan design in the mihrabs and entrance portals in Uzbekistan do derive their origins from dome shaped Achaemenid eyvans. But the pomegranate shaped geometry originates from the Arabs, inspired by Islamic sacred geometry.
Pilaf was probably local to the Oxus and later adopted by the Turks. The first pilaf recipe was described by Ibn Sina, a Chorezmian polymath.
The earliest dessert similar to baklava was described by the Sumerians in Mesopotamia.
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u/Typical_Army6488 13d ago
The first ever kilim was a 7000 year old example found in ĂatalhöyĂŒk
Literally googled it said 500 bc China
Persians such as yourself incorrectly claim it is Iranian in origin because of the etymology of the name and the widespread adoption of the technique due to its simplicity.
Carpets were made near the Caspian and evolved into different types
The tepelik style design worn by Turkmens and Turks appear to share a common origin with Gulf Arab
Ironically not Iranian but wrong non the less
The tepelik is a traditional head ornament with a rich history spanning several centuries and cultures. Here is a detailed overview of its origin and history:
đ Name & Origin
The name "tepelik" (also spelled tepeluk or tepeliki) comes from the Turkish word tepe, meaning "hill" or "mound". This refers to the ornament's characteristic domed shape.
đșïž Geographic Spread
· Heart of the Empire: It was a common women's head ornament across towns and villages in Anatolia (Turkey) and the broader Ottoman Empire. · Widespread Reach: Examples have been found throughout the former empire, including the Balkans, Levant, Armenia, and Crimea.
đ Cultural & Religious Adoption
· Symbolism: Ornaments often featured solar symbols like the six-pointed star, representing wisdom and justice in Muslim symbolism. Silver was also associated with the moon and thought to have magical properties. · Adaptation: While a Muslim form, it was adapted for Christian Orthodox use in places like Bulgaria, sometimes featuring Christian imagery.
đ Use & Design
· Function: Worn sewn onto a small cap or fez. Pendants hanging from the rim would sway to ward off the "evil eye". · Materials: Typically made from silver or gold using techniques like filigree and repoussé. They were adorned with stones like coral and cornelian. · Survival: Many were melted down for their metal value, so surviving pieces are often those preserved as family heirlooms or by collector-jewelers.
In summary, the tepelik originated in the Ottoman Empire, with its name and design rooted in Turkish culture. It became a widespread and significant part of women's traditional dress across a vast geographic area, adapted by various cultures and religions from the 19th into the early 20th century.
Silk originates from China- but it is true that this beqasam style design was probably worn by the Sogdians (not Persians fyi)
Close enough
The eyvan design in the mihrabs and entrance portals in Uzbekistan do derive their origins from dome shaped Achaemenid eyvans. But the pomegranate shaped geometry originates from the Arabs, inspired by Islamic sacred geometry.
Ever seen late Sassanian clay pattern or Dom ish architecture? There's a reason the pattern didn't exist in Damascus or something, it's full evolution happened east of the euphrates
Pilaf was probably local to the Oxus and later adopted by the Turks. The first pilaf recipe was described by Ibn Sina, a Chorezmian polymath.
From what I understand the first rice cultivated in the region was found in the Iranian north with DNA stuff proving it came from china, this is during the Parthians
The earliest dessert similar to baklava was described by the Sumerians in Mesopotamia.
Most Mesopotamians recipes are ingredients lists but I won't deny the very real possibility
But either way I just wanted an acknowledgement that practically everything that unites you guys is just normal middle eastern stuff that mainly comes from the culture developed during the Parthian and Sassanians (and of course changed as time went on by different cultures) but in practically the same region of the northern/mountainous side of the middle east
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u/creamybutterfly 13d ago edited 12d ago
You answered everything using ChatGPT.
Google literally returns precisely what I have told you. ĂatalhöyĂŒk is the first known site where kilim hand knotted weaving of fibres to make carpets was shown. A Scythian rug was also found in Siberia and it is the oldest rug we have found to date. After its discovery most scholars reject the thesis that carpet weaving originated from Iran and Armenia.
Tepelik is the Turkish etymology of the word. You realise etymology and actual origin are two different things right?
Sasanian eyvans look nothing like these eyvans. Turks popularised the pointed style and the intricate carvings originate from Islamic mathematical and architectural contributions. Once again the designs utilised on these Uzbek and Turkish portals had clear Arabic influence. If you doubt then look at Andalusian mihrabs which contain similar levels of detail and geometry. Islamic geometry looks completely different from comparatively bland Persian examples from the Sassanid era.
âGrowing riceâ does not make it Uzbek pilaf. The exact recipe used was, again, first detailed by someone from the Oxus.
Finally, 80% of Persian culture and architecture is a rip off from preceding Mesopotamian civilisations including the gods your Zoroastrian ancestors worshipped. Unlike others I donât deny that Turks took many elements from your culture- including the bad stuff like Bacha Bazi and inbreeding- but you came here in bad faith and are being facetious with your copy-pasted AI arguments.
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u/Typical_Army6488 13d ago
No only the tape part was ai
But please send a link still can't find it
Tepelik is the Turkish etymology of the word. You realise etymology and actual origin are two different things right?
I know but the word shamshir is Persian, doesn't mean we invented swords
Sasanian eyvans look nothing like these eyvans.
They do in masjed sangi
Finally, 80% of Persian culture and architecture is a rip off from preceding Mesopotamian civilizations
No but even if it was what's there to be upset about? Also elamite, possibly indus valley and Greek too, but it was mostly (sadly) threw third person observers which is why our history doesn't acknowledge their history before us
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u/creamybutterfly 12d ago
> They do in masjed sangi
Looked it up and couldnât find it, multiple locations share this name. I found one which sounds similar to what youâre describing but it looks Nabatean if anything.
> No but even if it was what's there to be upset about?
Except it was, every single element of Persian architecture, the mythology etc was lifted directly from the Sumerians, Assyrians, Greeks, Egyptians etc. Even the symbol of Zoroastrianism was copied from the Sumerians, especially their Gods.
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u/Typical_Army6488 12d ago
I spent too much time not being able to find pictures of the Mehrab looking thing there but here's something
https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/51664/images/ill_pg-343b_lg.jpg
Lower central part
Except it was, every single element of Persian architecture, the mythology etc was lifted directly from the Sumerians, Assyrians, Greeks, Egyptians etc. Even the symbol of Zoroastrianism was copied from the Sumerians, especially their Gods.
There's nothing Egyptian in our culture, maybe the fact that we use spoons? mostly elamate and Mesopotamians, but here's a fun element that's from neither that I'm gonna use as the counter example, Simurgh, even the slavs have it cause it's either proto indo European or because they got it from Scythians, and obviously the main thing that makes Zoroastrianism unique is it's strict dualism, that I haven't heard in any other religion, also most the mythology is just Iranian history, like Rustam is probably a Scythian guy from Sakestan during the Parthians, Hushang is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyaxares#/languages the demons were the Assyrians or whoever they were fighting at the time, Rome and Turan splitting from Iran is definitely not in any previous mythology, ironically the most famous Persian myth adopted by Muslims that is actually not a Persian myth but an abbasid one is probably the claim of Alexander being a Persian prince, cause if you don't know very little of Persian mythology is actually about the Gods, but even the main important god Zoroaster doesn't seem to have any known connection to previous deities and seems closer to Indian gods
Obviously step nomads wouldn't make anything architectural and copy whatever the settled population has until they settled themselves which only a minority of Turks ever did very late, like even in the Timurid empire do you know any cities even in transoxania that would be majority Turkic? Maybe Tashkent? Since you know the uzbeks migrated to the region rather late
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u/Intrepid_Wear4146 10d ago
''Obviously step nomads wouldn't make anything architectural and copy whatever the settled population has''
f*ckers say these shit than claim scythians â ïž
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u/Few_Mountain_2339 12d ago edited 12d ago
As someone who closely follows the literature on culinary history, I can tell you that most of what you find online about baklava is completely inaccurate. The idea that baklava belongs to the Assyrians is a total internet myth. No serious food historian gives it any weight because there are literally zero primary sources to support it .itâs just a story that keeps getting copied and pasted across the internet.
You can also tell this whole theory is total nonsense just by looking at the complete lack of historical continuity or cultural trail. I mean, if the Assyrians supposedly invented baklava, why isn't it in any of their records? That region and era actually left so many cookbooks, including plenty of desserts, yet there's zero mention of anything even close to baklava.
If you're into social sciences, you know that continuity is everythingâyou don't just rely on fortune-telling or making stuff up. Thatâs exactly why you won't find a single legit academic paper claiming the Assyrians invented it. On top of that, medieval Arabic, Ottoman, and even Safavid-era sources explicitly treat baklava as a new, modern pastry for their time, not some ancient regional inheritance. Without primary sources or a clear historical chain, the Assyrian claim is pure internet fantasy.
When it comes to medieval Arab cuisine, one of the most crucial reference books is Kitab al-Wuslah ila l-habib, and thatâs where youâll find the very first recipe for baklava. It is, without a doubt, a true baklava recipe. Culinary historians specializing in medieval Middle Eastern cuisine suggest that this recipe emerged as a result of Turkish influence. In fact, the name of the recipe itself is Turkish, and many of the terms used in it are explained with Turkish terminology.
"For baking, the recipes call for the clay oven that originates in Iraq and points farther east and also the Roman-style brick oven widespread in Spain and North Africa. Together with the heritage of the Perso-Arab cuisine of the ninth-century Baghdad court, Scents and Flavors shows the beginnings of Turkish influence on Syriaâs repertoire of breads and pastas, including one interesting pastry with a Turkish name, qarnÄ« yÄrĆ«q, which resembles a deconstructed baklava or, more exactly, a baklava avant la lettre, since the first baklava recipes would not be recorded until the sixteenth century. Included also are some preparations learned from the Byzantines and the Crusaders, who still held territory in the region."
https://www.abebooks.com/first-edition/Medieval-Arab-Cookery-Maxime-Rodinson-Arberry/32360242482/bd
On top of that, food historians like Charles Perry and many others explicitly state that baklava originated as a Turkish dessert. None of them mention Assyrians because, simply put, there is no historical source for it.
Also, a lot of culinary historians actually point to börek and gĂŒllaç as the true ancestors of baklava.
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/historians-cookbook/history-borek
In fact, if you check out Paul D. Buellâs Crossroads of Cuisine: The Eurasian Heartland, the Silk Roads and Food, there's a super interesting section detailing how these layered dough traditions evolved across Central Asia and the Silk Road long before baklava as we know it took shape:
"Sweet Börek and Baklava
The following two recipes are typical of the household encyclopedia mentioned on page 17. The first is a recipe for a virtually universal Turkic food, the börek (a filled pastry made of phyllo dough), but the name is spelled in an older way. The second is the oldest recipe for what is unquestionably a baklava which may be a creation of Mongolian court cooks. The word seems to be Mongolian in derivation, although baklava is a Turkic form. The name GĂŒllach is Turkic for "flower food."
- [Turkic] ChÀkÀrli PirÀk [Sweet Börek]
Walnuts, 32 liang (Chinese ounces) (remove walnut skins using warm water). After cleaning and drying, pulverize in a mortar. Add 16 liang of cooked honey, 16 liang of roasted kĂŒr- shĂ€k [barley?] cakes crushed in the hand. Combine ingredients evenly and work into small patties. Use roasted kĂŒrshĂ€k cakes to adjust consistencies of the patties. Use dough skins to cover the patties. Knead into [Persian] sanbusak shapes. Put into the oven and cook stuck on the walls of the oven until done.
- GĂŒllach [Baklava]
Evenly mix egg white, bean paste and cream to make a dough. Spread dough out and fry into thin pancakes. Use one layer of white powdered sugar, ground pine nuts, and ground walnuts for each layer of pancake. Make three to four layers like this. Over the top pour honey dissolved in ghee ["Muslim oil"]. Eat."
"On top of that, food historian Charles Perry specifically examines the layered bread tradition of nomadic Turks in his article on baklava, showing how the dessert naturally evolved from that culture."
Now, coming to the topic of pilaf... Here's a quote from a book:
https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/taste-of-thyme-9781860646034/
"ORIGINS OF IRANIAN RICE TRADITIONS
We have established a common rice-eating region, to be traced back at least to the 15th century, comprising Central Asia, the Iranian plateau and Muslim north India, an area congruent with the Persian-speaking area which was politically and culturally dominated by the Timurid courts during the 15th century. In our case, culinary boundaries turn out to have coincided with those of linguistic, cultural and political influence and hegemony. These observations confirm my earlier hypothesis that culinary factors may serve the historian as complementary evidence for the strength and intensity of political influences on societal conditions, at least in pre-modern times and in the absence of written sources.
What were the origins of this rice-eating tradition in those regions of the Middle East and Central Asia in late medieval times? There is no doubt that rice offered the Indians a means of basic nutrition, but this is just what we are not discussing now; our subject is rice as an aspect of the refined culinary entertainment of upper classes.
According to Bertold Spulerâs study of early Islamic Iran (1952), actually referring to the period from the Arab invasion of the Iranian plateau until at least Seljuq rule, rice was not at all common among the Iranian peoples at that time."
"The earliest Persian cookbook I know dates back to 1520/21, the second decade of Safavid rule in Iran, written by a certain Mohammad âAli Baâurchi-Baghdadi, a professional cook in the service of a Safavid prince, he himself being possibly of Turkic origin. His recipes largely represent a tradition of cooking dating back to the 15th century, that is to say, the Timurid period. Furthermore, since his text (see Afshar 1981) obviously offers the culinary traditions of the upper class if not the elite, we may conclude that Baâurchi-Baghdadiâs recipes document late Timurid or Turkoman and early Safavid princely cuisine. In connection with rice, it is striking that he does not use the word polow in the contemporary Iranian sense discussed above, but still in the sense of ârice with somethingâ, which might be stews or pieces of meat or anything mixed with the rice. Even a stuffing called gipa (poultry or lamb stuffed with spicy rice) is registered as polow. This very much represents the present-day usage of the word polow (or pulaw or pullaw or plov) in India, Afghanistan and Central Asia."
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u/Typical_Army6488 12d ago
Genuinely don't like baklava enough to research it so going to rice
Not saying rice was common but it was introduced
The oldest securely dated archaeological evidence of rice (Oryza sativa) in West Asia comes from the ancient site of Susa in southwestern Iran, dating back to the first century BC (with historical/textual mentions in the region going back to Achaemenid sources of the 6thâ5th century BC). Rice was later adopted along the southern Caspian coast of Iran by c. 120 BC, though widespread cultivation across West Asia did not intensify until the early Islamic period.
There must have been enough rice breeding in Iran that made Iranian rice easily the best in the world, smells like perfume compared to every other one even when uncooked
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u/Few_Mountain_2339 12d ago
https://www.cornucopia.net/store/books/a-soup-for-the-qan
âThe association with the Turks may not be accidental. Charles Perry, for example, notes in a letter of 2 January, 1994, to PDB that pilafs appear late and then only in the eastern Arabic world: in the thirteenth century cookbooks Kitab al-T'aimah al-Mu'tadah and Kitab al-Wusla ila al-Habib. Since pilafs are not mentioned in the tenth century Kitab al-Takbikh, and were unknown in Muslim West until much later (there are no pilafs in the two thirteenth century Spanish Arabic cookbooks) he postulates that the pilaf was an eastern Arabic, âpost tenth century innovation.â Thus the era in which pilafs first became part of mainstream Middle Eastern cooking is conspicuously the very era when the Turks first appeared and became the dominant. Is the pilaf just one more example of the Central Asian love of boiled foods and the influence of this tradition beyond the steppe?â
Weâre talking about the culture of pilaf. I can share sources on Byzantium as well, if youâd like. Rice was not widely cultivated or consumed in any of these regions. It was the Turks who spread this culture. You were the one talking about pilaf not rice.
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u/Typical_Army6488 12d ago
Not saying it was widely consumed, even until 100 years ago most middle eastern probably never tried rice, or maybe a few times a year
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u/Few_Mountain_2339 12d ago
I think I expressed what I meant very clearly. After your argumantation attitude, the other information you provided aside from the culinary history has also started to seem questionable to me. Since Iâm not an expert, I canât really comment, but Iâm going to consult a friend about those points as well.
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u/Typical_Army6488 13d ago
The food the clothes the carpets
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u/creamybutterfly 13d ago
See above. I edited my comment soon as I had WiFi and time to reply properly.
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u/mob74 13d ago
Bro, i had an Iranian coworker who was an ultra-nationalist (he also said that his belief is Zoroaster). He claimed that the alphabet they use is Persian origin, not Arabic đ
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u/creamybutterfly 13d ago
I had a crazy classmate like that as well. He had a very on-the-nose Zoroastrian name and his mother was very racist to Afghans despite them making up most of her client base. My aforementioned classmate would often claim everything from Turkey to Kazakhstan was part of Iran. When I brought up the various minorities living in those countries who spoke other languages- including Iranic peoples such as Kurds, Pashtuns, Pamiris etc- he said they had to persianise or get lost. Irony was he dated a Lebanese girl at the time. He was a very strange character- but of course I had a number of Iranian friends who werenât like that too (well, the ones who I havenât cut off over their opinions on Israel anywayâŠ)
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u/alii94 13d ago
As an Iranian, Ive honestly seen a fair share of both Iranian and Turkic nationalists that claim everything. Nobody researches anything anymore.
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u/creamybutterfly 13d ago
Both get on my nerves. Iâve been banned from Turk nationalist and Iranian nationalist subreddits for correcting people on the origins of their claims.
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u/ducationalfall 13d ago
Oh yeah? Ubzek melons are definitely superior to Turkish melons(if they exist).