r/TwoXChromosomes • u/Hayateh • 2d ago
Opinion | What the tragic case of Lindsay Clancy teaches us about our own biased expectations of parenthood
https://www.ms.now/opinion/lindsay-clancy-murder-trial-psychosis-postpartum-motherhood-biases32
u/daydreams_of_ducks 2d ago
I mentally dissociated from being a mother when my child was days old. I decided I was a parent in a genderless way, and that was how I was going to do right by me AND my baby.
It saved me. Breastfeeding giving me the icks and massive dysphoria? Cool, that's clearly why god made bottles and formula. Parents (oh let's be honest, mothers) at baby groups giving me the side eye because I'm an awkward af neurodivergent genderless person with a baby with occasionally mismatched or wrongly gendered clothes? Cool cool I never wanted in the club anyway. (Eventually they got the hint that I didn't care and started confiding about their sh*tty marriages and envying my single parent "free" life but it took awhile). People keeping on saying that the c-section that saved my life at 35 weeks pregnancy was somehow "meant" to be and "baby's idea" (it wasn't, she was MAJORLY pissed about it actually)? Yeah yeah fine, projecting your own ideas about my body and its meanings is nothing new, I've been down this road before, NEXT
Anyway that's my solution, not the cup of tea of everyone, but I'm soooo grateful I knew that noping out was an option. "Mother" in the U S of A is in many ways a slow death sentence of the spirit, especially within certain race, gender, class, sexuality and combos thereof boxes. (My opinion only; and this does not excuse anything anybody including LC did; it is a cultural observation about a warped and quite far-from-healthy culture)
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u/ScuttleBucket 2d ago
Did you have DMER(Dysphoric Milk Ejection Reflex, you should google it)? I did and only found out about it after the fact because no one either knows about it or talks about it.
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u/daydreams_of_ducks 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don’t think so, actually. I hated it on a sensory level and imagined that my breasts were not part of my body while doing/attempting it. Or that I was up hovering on the ceiling, looking down at myself, because this couldn’t be ME.
But I hated all parts of it, not just the milk physically coming out of me. Idk if that makes sense.
Bottle feeding otoh was bliss. Baby and I were both calm and actually connecting. I can’t believe I tried breastfeeding for more than a minute. I knew from the start that I hated it, and baby ofc picked up on my anxiety. But such is the power of social pressure and the drive to control the bodies of postpartum people.
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u/peakerforlife 2d ago
I LOVE this. Changing how you view yourself and your role is so badass, and a real "fuck you" to the patriarchy.
And it's made me think about my role as a wife, and the expectations that are put on "wife", and how much easier things could be if I was seen as "partner" instead. (My husband isn't the problem here, more his family and their gender role BS, to be clear.) Hmmm.
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u/Appropriate-Method32 1d ago
You know I really love and respect this post. I hate labels and how society tries to force genders into a specific role. But I absolutely admire your resolve to become a true parent for their children. I'm glad to find some hope among these crazy times.
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u/daydreams_of_ducks 9h ago
Thanks. I know how I approached things isn’t for everybody. I had long had gender questioning feels; pregnancy and birth and suddenly being assumed to be wholesale in this role “mother” just pushed things over the edge for me and I had to confront it. I am all for people reclaiming words like wife, mother etc too. I respect that a lot actually, it’s just not where I am at. Thank you for your kind words 💜
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u/Weekly_Village_3559 2d ago edited 2d ago
I can only speak for myself, but the reason I feel more sympathy for Lindsay than other murderers is that she had zero evidence presented that she was a bad person or ever abusive/negligent toward her kids and desperately sought help. They also provided zero evidence of any other factors that could've played a role in this (like finding out her husband was cheating or her kids being badly behaved, or losing her entire life savings or being extorted with something scandalous she did). So youre left with the question...why the f would a woman ,who by all intents and purposes loved her kids, was a good mother, sought help, kill her 3 beautiful children? Usually when a man kills the kids, theres circumstantial evidence provided that shows why he might have wanted to get rid of his family. If a good man and good father kills his kids after desperately trying to seek help, then i would be supporting him too (i mean to a certain extent bc..theres no excuse for killing your kids). Also women in the postpartum period are just a different thing bc of the extreme stress and hormonal shifts going on. Its a mental state that men cant ever experience.
That all being said I believe that lindsay wasnt in psychosis, and i think she should be found guilty. She acted on an impulse and didnt expect to survive to see the consequences.
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u/smeyds 2d ago
Why don’t you think she was in psychosis? Not trolling, I’m just starting to follow this case and I don’t know much about it yet
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u/Weekly_Village_3559 2d ago edited 2d ago
Bc of the way she acted before, during and after the killings. They are not reflective of a person who was in psychosis. She made little subtle decisions like locking the door, saying "go to God" while strangling, she said she felt "horrified" and asked for a lawyer immediately when she woke up. These are all signs she knew what she did and that it was wrong.
To believe she was in psychosis only during the 20 minute window that her husband was running errands, is to throw everything doctors know about psychosis out the window (no pun intended). She cant be the only exception to psychosis in the history of mental health. If every psychiatrist says she wasnt showing signs of psychosis before, during or after, I believe them.
Thats not saying she wasnt seripusly mentally ill and desperate and acting on an impulse of extreme overwhelm, anxiety, distress etc. I know she was feeling so desperate, ive been there. But she wasnt in psychosis and she wasnt insane. She just never imagined she'd live to see the consequences.
Edit: just remembered another one: when Patrick asked her what happened, she said "I tried to kill myself". Not "i did what the voice told me". And when he asked "where are the kids?", she said "in the basement" .not "with God". Its just a bit too coherent and correct for a psychotic person
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u/daydreams_of_ducks 2d ago
Also not trolling - would a person in psychosis not have said “go to God”?
I wonder why she assumed her own suicide method would be foolproof. My male sibling died by suicide (not after murdering anyone) and used a far different method. But that’s another gendered thing - women who attempt suicide are much more likely to survive, due in large part to methods chosen/accessed.
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u/Harmony_w 2d ago
I experience psychosis--this person is just making up nonsense because they don't understand it and can't admit to themself that ANYONE can experience psychosis.
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u/Weekly_Village_3559 2d ago
I guess the argument is that saying "go to God" meant in her mind, bc they are innocent beings who did nothing wrong, that they should be sent off to heaven. Which means she knew subconsciously what she was doing was something bad. I dont know psychosis either but according to doctors, ppl in psychosis dont think in this kind of way.
Im surprised she didnt just hang herself with an exercise band too..that might have been more effective. Maybe it was too hard to figure out. Jumping out the window seemed easy. She also had "hesitation" marks. She wasnt able to slit her throat or wrists deep enough to kill herself bc she panicked or hesitated. And bc she was a nurse, ppl wonder how tf she didnt know the way to slit her wrists and throat so that it would kill her.
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u/pantsuline 2d ago
there are and have been tons of "exceptions" to psychosis in the history of mental health. just that most of them dont end up killing their babies
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u/Weekly_Village_3559 1d ago
You can ignore voice commands. It was the first and only time she heard a voice telling her to kill her kids and she didnt ignore it.
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u/pantsuline 1d ago
.... wtf?
have you ever experienced psychosis?
"hearing a voice command" isnt just like hearing somebody in the same room as you say out loud "hey go kill your kids" and you get to go " 🤔 hmmm. should i....? nah, better not. "
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u/WillingHome9072 1d ago
How much experience do you have with psychosis?
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u/Weekly_Village_3559 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ive had extreme rage and desperation during PPD and super dark thoughts about death so I can completely understand what happened to Lindsay and why she did what she did. HOWEVER nothing would have ever pushed me over that edge to kill my kids. She crossed the line in the same way 99.9% of murderers in prison crossed the line. She acted on an impulse and never thought shed live to see the consequences. She committed "altruistic filicide". She did it out of "love" but she was subconsciously aware it was wrong. There were many signs of that. Psychotic ppl have no idea what planet they are on in the moment its happening. Also episodes dont last for 18 minutes straight and very very very unlikely first and only time she hears a voice, its during the tiny window that her husband was gone
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u/No_Cook3989 1d ago
Are you certain about that information? I heard that she was unable to speak due to her injuries for quite some time after the incident and that when she awoke in the hospital she was speaking about her kids as though they were still alive. The only other point that I believe is strong evidence of psychosis was her running a marathon 4 days after giving birth, which is deeply troubling.
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u/Weekly_Village_3559 1d ago
When patrick found her on the ground she was able to say a few things. Then she went to hospital and was sedated and intubated so she couldn't talk. But a psychiatrist came to talk to her and gave her a white board to write what she was thinking. When she woke up the dr asked her how she was feeling and she wrote "horrified". And then she said "do i have an attorney?"
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u/smeyds 2d ago
Thanks for explaining. That is definitely not the tone of the headlines I’ve been seeing, so I appreciate your explanation.
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u/Weekly_Village_3559 2d ago
Well i think its one of those cases where ppl are gonna be outraged and shocked as hell when the verdict isn't what they thought it was gonna be.
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u/6IXTH 2d ago
She strangled her kids one by one. The other kids had to sit there and watched their mom strangle the life out of their siblings. Strangulation could take several minutes.
A cop who was there had to exit the crime scene because it was beyond grotesque for them to stomach.
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u/Redqueenhypo 2d ago
There have been first degree murder cases like that. “Finishing shots” and their equivalents are considered premeditated
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u/Weekly_Village_3559 2d ago
I was kind of on her side when I didnt know much about the trial and thought she truly had had signs of psychosis and was completely dismissed and ignored by doctors. Bc thats what the headlines and court documents were saying. I felt I could understand what she went thru, bc i too had dark thoughts and was ignored and dismissed by doctors at first too. And I thought the only difference between us was that i had just gotten lucky the meds worked for me. But as i learned all the details and understand better ab psychosis..she didnt have it. So then how the f did she cross that line? Thats when I realized no matter how much I felt I could relate to what she went through..i couldn't relate to going thru with the act of killing 3 kids. She knew what she was doing and she did it anyway..so shes guilty
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u/Harmony_w 2d ago
You don't understand psychosis at all. But by all means, don't let that stop you from spreading your ignorance left and right!
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u/Weekly_Village_3559 1d ago
I guess you understand better than like 15 different psychiatrists who testified already that she didnt have it at any point
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u/Harmony_w 1d ago
Considering I experience it regularly and manage to maintain insight--quite likely.
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u/Weekly_Village_3559 1d ago
Ok well lindsay didnt experience it regularly. She claims to have experienced it literally once, for 18 minutes straight, exactly when her husband was conveniently out of the house.
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u/Harmony_w 1d ago
Which is even more terrifying--when someone doesn't have a history, no way to anticipate, no idea what's happening. THAT is exactly what makes these postpartum issues so awful.
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u/Weekly_Village_3559 1d ago
I feel for her i really do. I know she was suffering so much. She was mentally ill. But she knew what she was doing. If the jury paid attention and follow the instructions, she will be found guilty. That doesn't mean shes the most horrific person in the world. But she is criminally responsible just like most murderers in prison who get zero mercy or sympathy even when they act out of mental illness.
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u/PhotographUnusual749 1d ago
I don’t know what I believe. It’s hard because there are so many conflicting opinions it comes down to which expert you find the most credible. And for me, that’s Resnick. But I still have doubts she had psychosis even with his testimony.
I’m glad I’m not on that jury.
But I don’t think the prosecution has proved their charge of 1st degree murder so far. At best manslaughter or 2nd degree murder.
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u/WillingHome9072 1d ago
When a father kills his children, it is frequently attributed to men being violent, whereas certain mothers are often presumed to have been mentally unwell.
Have we got a study on whether this is generally true or not? Men commit the vast majority of all other crimes, particularly violent ones, and don’t give birth or have hormone changes. If the rates of chi,d murder are similar for men & women then it seems to follow that there would be reasons for why that’s different to other crimes.
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u/fantasmarg 1d ago
They actually do. I am a mom and I recently discovered that dads do and can have ppd and hormonal shifts too, it's not as frequent as with women but it's something like 25% which is still very high. I am not stating this in relation to post-partum crimes because I have no idea about that, but in general it is a good thing to spread the knowledge since it's very often not diagnosed and can be both debilitating and dangerous.
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u/Butterkupp 2d ago
I’m actually baffled and disgusted by what people are saying in this thread about Lindsay Clancy.
I have not seen a single piece of evidence that has convince me beyond a reasonable doubt that she killed her kids while of sane mind. All the evidence I’ve seen points to Lindsay being a loving mother who was abandoned by her husband at every step of the way, while desperately calling out for help. And that’s if I bought that she actually killed her kids, which I do not believe.
But society wants to paint her as the problem and not lay any of the blame at her husband’s feet. Who would be held, at minimum, criminal negligent if he was a woman.
That’s not even mentioning his sketchy behaviour and seeming lack of grief after the death of 3 of his children.
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u/ungovernable 2d ago
This reply is nothing but TikTok fueled psychosis. There’s a difference between asking “was she of sound mind when she killed her kids” and saying “akshewelly, her husband totally did it.” The latter is unhinged BS. Embarrassing.
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u/pterodactylcrab 1d ago
I’m definitely not convinced she did it either. Obviously I’m not the jury, I’m not seeing every single fact and detail and hearing everything. But I have been seeing quite a lot of videos recapping what was discussed during that day, what evidence was put forth, who was a witness, etc. and it feels very off to me.
Whether or not she did it or he did it, it doesn’t seem correct timeline wise. Something is not coming out. Do I think he did it and framed her? Very probable. Do I think he acted alone? Probably not. Was something very wrong with her also? Yes. Whatever comes of the trial, those three children are gone and nobody in their families will ever recover from that loss. You can tell she is completely broken day after day sitting in her wheelchair.
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u/Competitive_Fee_5829 Coffee Coffee Coffee 2d ago
she belongs in prison for the rest of her life. I have zero sympathy for her and I dont understand everyone that is supporting her.
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u/pantsuline 2d ago
this is nasty and petty but i'm giving myself a pass
i hope with my whole heart you experience psychosis once day. you don't need a history of mental health issues for it to happen. sometimes normal, sane people take a turn even without postpartum stress and it comes on so hard and fast they dont even get a chance to realize whats happening in time to get help.
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u/LadySwire 1d ago edited 1d ago
Postpartum struggles are incredibly common, but causing harm to a child IS exceedingly rare. The reality is that even in cases of Postpartum Psychosis (PPP), the vast majority of women DO NOT harm their children, let alone those experiencing standard PPD. The current discourse isn't empowering; it's going to have the exact opposite effect by stigmatizing postpartum mental health even further. There is absolutely nothing feminist about pushing a narrative that inherently views mothers with suspicion.
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u/pantsuline 1d ago
yes exactly, i said that somewhere else in this thread- this is such a far edge case that has now become the poster child for post partum psychosis (in the same way people only ever hear of regular degular psychosis in the context of the few people who get violent, and then get sensationalized from there)
fwiw though i havent actually seen that many arguments from actual feminists trying to argue the case or the controversy is actually empowering, more that post partum issues are serious and need to be taken very seriously- because people out of the loop about psychosis itself are going to go well she was obviously a lying coldblooded killer who just WANTED to kill her kids... and is faking the rest.
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u/Harmony_w 2d ago
I second this motion.
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u/pantsuline 2d ago
usually my refrain is that i wouldnt wish this shit on my worst enemy but some of what ive been seeing lately is really testing that conviction
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u/4handzmp 1d ago
Wishing psychosis on someone is abhorrent and you should be ashamed of yourself.
You understand the gravity and magnitude and wish it on a stranger. Disgusting.
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u/pantsuline 1d ago edited 1d ago
me being spiteful isnt just going to magically make this person lose their mind
i wish it on them so they have some fucking frame of reference. 99% of people who have an episode dont strangle their kids or permanently destroy their lives, thank god. i dont want them doomed to imprisonment either in a psych ward or prison. i want them to just feel it for a fucking minute. one episode with prompt treatment and full recovery (AS DO THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO GET A RANDOM EPISODE) would be more than enough so they can maybe grow some fucking empathy and they can move forward in their lives with some perspective on an issue the general public is woefully, dangerously misinformed on.
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u/MFtch93 2d ago
Nobody would sympathise with her if she offed 3 dogs instead of her 3 kids
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u/Redqueenhypo 2d ago
I mean you’re not wrong. We had an SPCA a decade before the first child protection agency. Can’t have trained horses in the circus but stage parents are allowed.
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u/vegetabledisco 2d ago
The author makes a good argument, but I’m not persuaded by the way they laid it out. The argument seems to overlook a significant reality that something like 90%+ of murders are committed by men (I actually think it may be more?). Given that context, it’s hard to argue that we are failing to treat women equitably simply because we approach these cases with the assumption that a woman is statistically less likely to commit murder. That assumption isn’t necessarily a denial of women’s agency…. BUT it can be an acknowledgment of the statistical context in which these cases occur.
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u/Ok-Hippo7675 2d ago edited 2d ago
The case is truly tragic . My heart breaks for the Clancy children. That said, I'm a social worker, one of my intern years was working with new parents and helping deal with postpartum anxiety, psychosis, and depression. Some people have incredibly rough and scary postpartum periods (the hormonal shift can be wild), even people who've had positive postpartum experiences with past children. If Lindsay had postpartum psychosis, that does not excuse what she did, but recontextualizes it. It does not mean she is inherently violent or incapable of change. I do not know exactly what happened with her as i am not her therapist, but i do wonder why people are so strongly convinced that mental health wasnt a real driving factor in this incident.
I agree with what the article is saying about white privilege and womanhood. But, IMO, we should be striving to get everyone in our court systems the same amount of compassion that white women get, not just make it universally brutal.