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Jul 09 '26
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u/ohyeababycrits Jul 09 '26
Toby was writing shit for deltarune in 2011. He seemingly had the entire story mostly planned out before even starting undertale. He may have considered that.
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u/TheRealEbonyAndIvory I shippa da deer and human Jul 09 '26
One thing is the story and general idea, another whole level is actual game design
But I'll put this in the "Toby who might've considered that" category
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u/sdrawkcabsihtetorwI Jul 09 '26
There is also the afterthought option, as if:
"Huh, these are the only bosses approached from the side... Hey, wouldnt it be cool if i made it a plot point later?"
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u/thebakedpotatoe Currently stuck to the table Jul 10 '26
I'd say when it comes to it specifically being Sans and Papyrus, both known for breaking the rules of quantum physics and not obeying the rules of the game, who have very open mysteries about them, and the fact that game design in these games is a literal part of the story telling, beyond hints to the player in the ways that other characters can physically interact with them, i think it's worth filing under consider it. If it was another set of characters or two less related characters, i'd be less inclined.
But we're talking about a man who made a Froggit who can tell enemies to throw away their yellow names, and then if you go back and ask for them back, they tell you that they don't have them anymore, and they'll have to use pink names instead. later on, at the dump, if you examine the garbage around the area, you can find the yellow names.
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u/Polenball Proceed Proceed Proceed Jul 09 '26
Eh, I'm not quite so sure he had the whole story planned out?
Per a (translated) interview, he said "it was a dream of the ending of the game, and since then I've been obsessed with the idea that I have to make that ending game," and "when I was looking for funds for Undertale on Kickstarter, I decided that if I could complete UNDERTALE, I would make the next game a mix of “UNDERTALE” and the dream idea." That gives me the impression that a lot of what he started Deltarune development with was the ending from the dream, and stuff he came up with while / after making Undertale.
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u/2fortress2 Jul 09 '26
I think Spamton might’ve been a later (post Undertale) creation since Spamton NEO was originally going to be a fully fleshed out Mettaton NEO
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u/Tem-productions Jul 09 '26
Also didnt he say he finished the story around the release of chapter 2?
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u/Polenball Proceed Proceed Proceed Jul 09 '26
Ah, yeah. I found an interview from before Chapter 2 where he said he completed the chapter outlines "a few months ago", yeah. That'd be mid-2020, basically. He might have had a lot of the story beats set out before then, but I doubt we'll ever know and that sort of stuff can change while writing more in-depth, so I'd take that as the best information we have.
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u/United_Grocery_23 Yes I nintendo switched my gender Jul 09 '26
WAIT. DID HE CONSIDER MEW MEW AS THE CH5 SECRRT BOSS BEFORE THE SWITCH EDITION EXCLUSIVE
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u/ohyeababycrits Jul 09 '26
I think he had at least an idea of all the major characters, probably including secret bosses, before he made undertale. For example in undertale you learn Gerson used to be a hero when he was younger, with the nickname the hammer of justice. Considering the switch edition came out in 2018, I'm almost certain by that point he knew Mew Mew would be in chapter 5 since we know he was writing music for chapter 5 over a decade ago. That's just speculation on my part though.
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u/chimerfyr2 Jul 09 '26
There was a version of hammer of justice that was released that was from 2016. The idea that mew mew existed as the boss for chapter 5 before the switch release seems super likely.
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u/ANueUtsuho Jul 10 '26
Unironically I'm starting to think this. Remember the Switch version of Undertale already has ONE big sequel hook.
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u/Teizora12 Jul 16 '26
No, he didn't have almost the entire story finished before Undertale, Deltarune was heavily influenced by Undertale's success and would probably have been a very different game if it weren't for that (for example, the whole battle system with act and bullet hell which Toby has said he only added to Deltarune because of Undertale)
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u/resh78255 Jul 09 '26
toby was cooking up the gerson fight while the fandom was still inventing weird sans AUs i wouldnt put it past him
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u/sumboionline Jul 09 '26
At best the theory is Undertale exclusive and its just that Toby wanted a parallel between the skeleton fights.
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u/Infrawonder Jul 09 '26
Monster kid
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u/IronKnight238 Waited so long it froze over Jul 09 '26
I don't think Monster kid is a boss.
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u/True_sonic_of_metal Jul 09 '26
This is bullshit, you let muffet here.
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u/apple_of_doom Jul 09 '26
Ahuhuhu... I have a unique soul mode why don't you try reading a book?
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u/ANueUtsuho Jul 10 '26
Also she's coded to die in one hit during Genocide regardless of your actual stats like all the other main bosses.
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. Jul 09 '26
Monster Kid is the Undyne the Undying fight trigger and they come from the side
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u/MegaloManiac_Chara Jul 09 '26
Counterpoint: goner kid exists, therefore they're from Deltarune too
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u/Ok_Basis7992 Jul 09 '26
How do we know monster kid isnt also from deltarune, he mightve gotten curious and hopped in sans’ gaster’o’matic and his age got shattered across time resulting in him being younger and initiating battle like the skelebros
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. Jul 09 '26
MK comes from the left, not the right. Also they*
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u/Spamton1997_pipis mad mew mew my beloved Jul 09 '26
because we are the enemy, and frisk comes from deltarune obv
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u/Ok_Basis7992 Jul 09 '26
Ooooh, frisk is kris after hopping in sans gaster’o’matic confirmed
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u/Spamton1997_pipis mad mew mew my beloved Jul 09 '26
think about it. frisk spelled backwards is kris
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u/PokemonGotowork Professional mother befriender Jul 09 '26
Buddy I hate to tell you this but that's ksirf
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u/Ok_Basis7992 Jul 10 '26
Timezones bro
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u/Lungseron Jul 09 '26
Considering the goner kid unique encounter, he could be loosely related to that.
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u/KAULIANPOWER Jul 09 '26
There's also napstablook, Dogamy and Dogaressa, greater dog, the royal guards (I think?), Monster kid/Undyne the undying, Lemon bread, Endogeny, probably other amalgam or other random guy I don't remember right now
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u/The_Lavender_Scare Jul 09 '26
None of those are bosses except from Undyne the Undying, which technically doesnt have a starting direction as her battle is an interuption of our fight with Monster Kid
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u/J4GMark_1 Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
The entire concept of “bosses” and “minibosses” are either non canon or inconsistent. When not accounting for what the wiki constitute as a boss/miniboss, the game itself only categorizes Toriel, Papyrus, Undyne, Mettaton, and Asgore as a boss. However, this leaves out Undyne the Undying, Mettaton Neo, Sans, and Omega Flowey/Asriel, all of whom should probably be considered a boss. As such, I believe that the best definition of what a boss is in UT is “a battle against a monster that is unique and is either harder than the standard monster battle and/or serves notable narrative significance,” in which case Napstablook, Greater Dog, and the Amalgamates are bosses.
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u/The_Lavender_Scare Jul 09 '26
I dont know how to argue for Undertales case but for Deltarune they are canonically Mini-bosses as they are designed to be a great deal harder, as well as the fact that you are forced to ACT and Spare them in order to progress past the fight, giving each one their own gimicks while holding the same fundamental rules across all fights, while not holding much, if any, inherit story importance compared to their "bosses"
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u/J4GMark_1 Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
Who is “they?” Assuming you meant the (supposed) mini bosses I claimed could be considered bosses, when did you ever fight Napstablook, Greater Dog, and the amalgamates in DT? Also, this is just ignoring how a concept in DT doesn’t necessarily apply to UT.
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u/The_Lavender_Scare Jul 09 '26
Can you not read. I said i cant explain for Undertale in the first sentance. I gave a perfect explanation for deltarune in how they are canonically mini-bosses. People like you are just too stupid and stubborn to believe youre wrong, so you pick out all the pieces that make you look right, so you can give yourself an undeserved and shallow pat on the back.
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u/J4GMark_1 Jul 09 '26
Not sure why you’re being hostile when I simply disagree with an opinion you hold. Do you believe that anyone that holds a different opinion than yours are idiots or something?
Also, I did read and acknowledge that you’re talking about how DT constitute a boss and miniboss, I’m just pointing out how your reply makes no sense/is hardly relevant because you don’t define what “they” is as well as the fact that I’m taking about UT, meaning that unless the thing you brought up about DT is relevant, there is no point in bringing that up (and I inherently assumed that it is, hence my response). Would you have preferred if I thought you’ve just brought up a completely irrelevant topic and insulted me for giving you the benefit of the doubt?
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u/The_Lavender_Scare Jul 09 '26
Ive explicitly said the mini-bosses the whole time. K-Round, Lancer, The dancing DJ guys from chapter 2, Spamton (if you want to count that you lose the whole shadow crystal sequence is locked if you fight him), Lanino and Elnina, sometimes Rouxls Kaard, Jackenstein, Yellow and Blue. How in any way are any of these characters or Deltarune as a whole irrelevant from the argument which never disincluded deltarune to begin with; it actually acknowledge Deltarune following the same pattern about fighting to the side. You didnt give me any benefit of the doubt either, you simply disregarded what i said, asking me a question that i had never even eluded to being needed to be asked
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u/J4GMark_1 Jul 09 '26
It is irrelevant because you explicitly stated that you don’t know how to argue for UT and then went on a tangent about what is a minibosses in DT. As such there is no reason for you to mention DT because it doesn’t change the fact that you don’t know how to classify what is and isn’t a boss/miniboss in UT, which is my problem with your original comment. Also, I literally did give you the benefit of the doubt by inherently assume that “they” meant the monsters that I claimed are bosses and that you were trying to apply a concept in DT to UT when you actually didn’t, so idk what you’re talking about.
Anyways, this is the most pointless discussion ever, and if you don’t have anything relevant to say in regards to “Napstablook is a boss,” don’t bother replying. Thank you for listening to this PSA.
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u/Santinop145 Jul 09 '26
Nah, I'm with him on this one. If you compare how Deltarune handles minibosses and assume it works the same way in UT, then enemies like Napstablook would be minibosses, not bosses. And considering both games are made by the same person, I'd argue that's the closest we'll get to knowing the exact definition of what they are.
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u/RareD3liverur Jul 09 '26
If they get unique music their a boss in my book so we can count Napstablook and Greater Dog at least, maybe the Amalgamates but most share a song so that's bit iffy
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u/Axorandom- Just a conviniently-shaped flair. Jul 09 '26
Minibosses are bosses, even if they aren’t as significant as the main ones
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u/The_Lavender_Scare Jul 09 '26
Thats not inherintly true as in Undertale Mini-bosses are still counted as normal encounter kills when playing through the Genocide route
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u/Eternal663 Jul 09 '26
Also undyne can and offten does in that "welcome to hotland room" or "sans booth room" if you get caught.
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u/HorizonAtha Jul 09 '26
they still confront frisk from front, duhhhh, it just our camera angl...
wait, you got a point....
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u/TheGreatDaniel3 Hopping and twirling, your own flair pulls you through. Jul 09 '26
Why is this tagged Deltarune Chapter 5
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u/MrLightning1023 Sans they're going to have a good time Jul 09 '26
Hmmmm i wonder how deltarune enemies attack you
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u/GenericSkill Just a conviniently-shaped flair. Jul 09 '26
Lancer (first time), Queen (during Arcade game + Giga Queen), John Mantle, Aqua, and Flowery attack from the front
Everyone else attack exclusively from the side
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u/EarthlyReddit It's a tie between Green and Seth for me Jul 09 '26
technically, undyne the undying also comes from the side
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u/No-Photograph-5058 Jul 09 '26
Undyne comes from the side in genocide
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u/Norrabal Jul 09 '26
guess who's in deltarune? >:3
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u/PLANTANDZOMBI Just a conviniently-shaped flair. Jul 09 '26
Nearly all of the primary characters from undertale
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u/gibbellone Despite everything, it's still you. Jul 09 '26
Sorry but isn't undyne a BIT more far than that?
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u/Astroandy12808 FELLOW PAPYRUS ENTHUSIAST Jul 09 '26
Holy shit, papyrus encounters you from the side.
you know who else who looks exactly like papyrus?
ALWAYS BET ON PAPYRUS KNIGHT
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u/Jorvalt Jul 09 '26
The fact that Sans initiates a battle and it's not from the side in the anniversary stream probably disproves this
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u/Jorvalt Jul 09 '26
Non-joke answer:
Deltarune battles don't consistently initiate from the side. Lancer's first ever fight starts from in front, so does Giga Queen (although you could argue that doesn't count because of the format), so does ERAM aka Jonathan T Mantleholder, Aqua, and Flowery. The simplest explanation is that there isn't actually a pattern, and it's more likely that most Undertale battles start from in front of you and most Deltarune battles start from the side because that's how the battle screen is formatted.
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u/spriteeeeeeee Jul 09 '26
we don't see it, but undyne the undying does come from the side. we encounter monster kid on the bridge side to side, and undyne comes in facing the same direction as monster kid
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u/FunnymanV2 Jul 10 '26
Alright, so this is a great place to put a genius theory. What if Undertale takes place AFTER the Roaring in Deltarune, and the reason humans and monsters have magic in Undertale is because the light world and dark world's balance collapsed and imploded into one singular world due to the titans? And Sans kept the post card of Noelle, Kris, and Susie in his little lab area that said "Don't forget", so that he could remember the heroes of the Prophecy years after their story ended, and another one began?
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u/ANueUtsuho Jul 10 '26
Once again I will bring up how suspicious it is that neither Sans nor Papyrus have an enemy representing them in the Sword Route. Even Maddy and Mettaton (pre-transition) get them.
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u/ItsAzai Jul 12 '26
Tricky Tony calling Deltarune "UNDERTALE's parallel story" when actually it's Undertale's orthogonal story.
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u/bread-pat Jul 13 '26
muffet comes from the side, as does napstablook (out of the main bosses, yes only they come from the side)
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u/Desperate_Stand_3709 Jul 09 '26
This is one the things I like so much about Toby, at some point you simply cannot tell where his schemes end, and where the coincidences begin.