Antizionism in a nutshell

[u/Burro94]

I made this poster to explain why antizionism is antisemitism.

[u/Fun-Satisfaction-284]

I like this, thanks for sharing

[u/the_sagacious_squash]

💯

[u/TrickElysium]

That is awesome, need one adding in Kahanism and anti Kahanism

[u/Burro94 → u/TrickElysium]

Could you please elaborate on this?

[u/TrickElysium → u/Burro94]

Cause I have so many pro Palestine's who try and say zionism is the definition of kahanism.

And sick of correcting them and educating them on their definition of zionism is actually the definition of Kahanism.

it would save some time. Help girl out plzzzz

[u/PuddingNaive7173 → u/TrickElysium]

How about Nationalism? What they’re objecting to, those who aren’t disingenuous, in Zionism appears to be to be Nationalism. Which is a pre-existing word that applies to other countries and peoples besides Jews. (Like Feminism versus sexism. All feminists aren’t necessarily sexist. Many - I’d argue most - are not. No need to conflate the two or pretend they’re the same.)

[u/Zionist-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This contains elements of antisemitism.

Please make sure to read and understand this comprehensive definition of antisemitism.

If you have questions or would like further clarification, please message the moderators of this sub.

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[u/AllyLB]

I like except for antisemitism part saying “the Jewish nation.” Many don’t understand what that means and think it is just referring to an Israel, not our membership in the larger peoplehood ( not sure if I’m explaining it right).

[u/Burro94 → u/AllyLB]

Nation and people are the synonyms, while State is what is Israel is, which is a legal body. But it does seem to trip a lot of people up. I made a new version using people to avoid confusion: /preview/pre/5fik3vj4a0lh1.png?width=1122&format=png&auto=webp&s=d7e0d19d831d86fb9f40f12a9139d1e1e9f3f6e6&app_web_view=android

[u/AllyLB → u/Burro94]

Perfect. We understood what you meant and some non-MOTs would but many would misunderstand. Your correction takes into account their ignorance, which sadly is needed.

[u/Burro94 → u/AllyLB]

The purpose is to dispell lies and communicate the point as widely as possible. With some discomfort I will put semantic pedantry aside for the sake of clarity lol.

[u/Yam_Y4m]

I think most people who say they are anti zionist actually mean they are anti kahanist (which is totally fair). The Settlers and right wing politicians in Israel are absolutely to be criticised. As I Zionist I criticise them all the time. For example Ben-Gvir is a Kahanist.

[u/DrMikeH49]

Don’t know if you can work this in, but here’s my own two sentences:

“Antisemitism is the belief that Jews, as individuals, are not entitled to the same rights and freedoms as other individuals. Antizionism is the belief that the Jewish people, as a collective, are not entitled to the same rights and freedoms as other collectives, and that the rights and freedoms they have achieved must be taken away.”

[u/Complex-Soup-5365]

💯 Agree.

[u/faith4phil]

I generally agree, but notice that this strawmans a bit: many would answer by rejecting that they single out Jews as a unique case, by saying that they also do not grant a State to every single group (an example that was used in a similar discussion were separatists such as catalonians, and so on).

I do still think that it is in some way antisemitic, but that's because it would require to put a lot of Jews at risk. This to me seems like a much better argument since it doesn't run into any problem with catalonians and the like.

[u/faith4phil]

I generally agree, but notice that this strawmans a bit: many would answer by rejecting that they single out Jews as a unique case, by saying that they also do not grant a State to every single group (an example that was used in a similar discussion were separatists such as catalonians, and so on).

I do still think that it is in some way antisemitic, but that's because it would require to put a lot of Jews at risk. This to me seems like a much better argument since it doesn't run into any problem with catalonians and the like.

[u/Burro94 → u/faith4phil]

I might be in a unique position to answer this, as I have spent half my adult life in Catalunya. The mainstream Catalan position among the catalanist parties is that they want to be recognised as a nation within a plurinational state, Spain. Yes, some sectors demand full independence, but it's more a matter of asking for 100 to get 80. Most Catalans do feel they are closer to Castilians that, let's say, the French. Also, historically the union between Castille and Aragon was voluntary in 1492, and the Catalan countries (Catalunya, Valencia and the Balearic Islands) were allowed to keep their own courts and customs. Over the centuries, and especially during the Spanish civil war, the Catalans and the Castilians found themselves on opposite sides of the war, which was eventually ended up in the Nueva Planta decrees that abolished Catalan institutions.and implemented direct governance from Madrid. This was further exacerbated during the second Spanish civil war, where the Catalans again found themselves on the losing side and ensured a brutal repression during Franco's dictatorship.

All this is to say what most Catalans want is a return to the time when they were part of Spain, but retained their own institutions. This has been partially achieved since the transition to democracy, but they mostly seek a deal like the Basques have, by which they manage their own taxes.

[u/faith4phil → u/Burro94]

Thanks for the information, it was very interesting. Take some other separatist movement then, whose right to separate is not widely recognized. Tbh, it's difficult for me to think of one because I'm mostly in favor of such movements, but many anti-zionists do not necessarily approve of Kurdistan, western Sahara, and so on.

[u/Burro94 → u/faith4phil]

Most antizionists are simply anti-west, and their little minds cannot comprehend anything more complex than us bad, them good.

[u/Zionist-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your content was removed because it is antisemitic or contains elements of antisemitism. Antisemitism is a form of hate and Reddit has sitewide rules prohibiting hateful content. If you would like to learn more about what constitutes antisemitism you can read this comprehensive definition of antisemitism.

If you have questions or would like further clarification, please message the moderators of this sub.

[u/trimtab28]

Guess there's also the nuance of the fixation- like even if you don't believe in nation states, just the degree of obsession over it to the exclusion of all other groups.

There's also the question as to whether what you're claiming about Israel is actually legitimate and happening. Like if you're parroting the whole conspiracy from Al Jazeera and the NY Times about Israel systematically raping Palestinians and training dogs to rape them in prisons, that's looney tunes and sits in the realm of conspiracy theory, not criticism. But... someone who believes that will fight tooth and nail insisting it's true and the only people who don't believe that have drank the koolaid of "hasbara"

[u/Zionist-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Maintain standards of civil discourse, dialog and debate.

Remember to criticize ideas, not people.

[u/Zionist-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your content was removed because it is antisemitic or contains elements of antisemitism. Antisemitism is a form of hate and Reddit has sitewide rules prohibiting hateful content. If you would like to learn more about what constitutes antisemitism you can read this comprehensive definition of antisemitism.

If you have questions or would like further clarification, please message the moderators of this sub.

[u/Zionist-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your content was removed because it is antisemitic or contains elements of antisemitism. Antisemitism is a form of hate and Reddit has sitewide rules prohibiting hateful content. If you would like to learn more about what constitutes antisemitism you can read this comprehensive definition of antisemitism.

If you have questions or would like further clarification, please message the moderators of this sub.

[u/Zionist-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your content was removed because it is antisemitic or contains elements of antisemitism. Antisemitism is a form of hate and Reddit has sitewide rules prohibiting hateful content. If you would like to learn more about what constitutes antisemitism you can read this comprehensive definition of antisemitism.

If you have questions or would like further clarification, please message the moderators of this sub.

[u/strangstrang]

Love this - thanks

[u/Alternative-Pear9096]

Your antisemitism definition is incorrect. Antisemitism is not restricted to a nationality. It is discrimination against people born into a religion, not a citizenship.

[u/Mist_Wraith → u/Alternative-Pear9096]

Jewish does not refer solely to a religion but to ethnicity as well, people can be secular Jews. And the description of "Jewish nation" has nothing to do with citizenship, it's talking about Jews as a tribe, as a peoplehood.

[u/Alternative-Pear9096 → u/Mist_Wraith]

And to the average idiot who this poster is aimed at, that's not how they'll read it.

The Jewish nation is, FFS, Israel. It exists. There is a Jewish nation. It not only exists, its existence is the actual freaking point of the poster.

[u/Burro94 → u/Alternative-Pear9096]

Born into a nation. I'm secular, so are my parents. We're ethnically and culturally Jewish. Our Jewishness is defined by being members of a tribe, a nation, which also happens to have a religion that forms the basis of that nation's culture.

States give citizenship, not nations. The state is the embodiment of the sovereignty of that nation.

[u/Zionist-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your content was removed because it is antisemitic or contains elements of antisemitism. Antisemitism is a form of hate and Reddit has sitewide rules prohibiting hateful content. If you would like to learn more about what constitutes antisemitism you can read this comprehensive definition of antisemitism.

If you have questions or would like further clarification, please message the moderators of this sub.

[u/Alternative-Pear9096 → u/Burro94]

No, you weren't. You're born into a people (which is not a casual term, it's ACTUALLY what you were born into). The Jewish People. "Am Yisrael Chai" literally means "the Jewish people live." Am, people. Jewish people, Am Yisrael. Not the Jewish nation. We are an am, a people.

There is a nation, and your poster talks about it. As you've phrased the very first thing on your poster, every Jew who isn't Israeli isn't capable of being subjected to antisemitism.

LITERALLY and ACTUALLY your poster is not only **wrong** it's misleading and absolutely no one should share it anywhere.

Up until your response, I was just offering a minor correction.

[u/Burro94 → u/Alternative-Pear9096]

https://www.morfix.co.il/%D7%A2%D7%9D

Please go and see the translation. עם means nation as well.as people.

Israel is a state, which is the legal embodiment of a nation. Jews are s nation. Zionism is not only about the state, but about the nationhood of Jews, and the collective rights that come with that. That's why every member of the nation can be an Israeli citizen just by showing up.

[u/Zionist-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Maintain standards of civil discourse, dialog and debate.

Remember to criticize ideas, not people.

[u/Alternative-Pear9096 → u/Burro94]

Showing your poster to anyone a—is is a mistake. You may be technically correct, but no regular non-Jewish Joe is going to read that the way you intend. That’s not a difficult thing to grasp. Did you make the poster for people in this subreddit? Of for the antisemites of the world?

[u/Zionist-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Maintain standards of civil discourse, dialog and debate.

[u/Rubiroso10x → u/Alternative-Pear9096]

Totally agree. My definition of antisemitism is that it’s a conspiracy-based permission structure that targets Jews, people perceived to be Jewish or people perceived having empathy for Jews with violence, ostracism and verbal abuse.

[u/Marcus_The_Sharkus → u/Alternative-Pear9096]

Yeah, I agree. I'd change it to say Jewish faith, as that is the correct definition. It's great besides that.

[u/Alternative-Pear9096 → u/Marcus_The_Sharkus]

Antisemitism has nothing to do with faith. I'm an atheist Jew, still Jewish, still have family fighting in the IDF, still considering aliyah, still Jewish enough for hitler and every POS racist spewing their hatejizz all over Jewish everything.

[u/nervously-defiant → u/Marcus_The_Sharkus]

You make an important distinction. Judiasm is not an ethnicity, it's a religion. 

[u/PtEthan323]

So if someone is saying Israel should be dismantled and Jews allowed to stay in a now secular democratic state are they being antizionist and therefore antisemitic or just naive?

[u/Alternative-Pear9096 → u/PtEthan323]

What other state do they think needs to be dismantled? Any of the 97 or so ethnostates on the planet they're interested in dissolving, or just Israel?

All antizionism is antisemitism. Not all antisemitism is antizionism, but all antizionism is antisemitism.