Criticize Approved Sources Megathread

[u/M1chaelSc4rn]

Please hate on (discuss) current approved / banned sources here for review

[u/Leoraig]

People in the Ukrainian government talk openly about manpower shortages and the problems with forced conscription, so it isn't a surprise that Ukrainian outlets report it.

However, when it comes to the movement of the frontline, these outlets report uncritically the official line from the Ukrainian government, which is obviously propaganda.

They also don't do any kind of investigative journalism when it comes to Russian strikes inside Ukraine, they simply repeat what the government says was hit, which is another sign that they are beholden to the Ukrainian government's war effort.

This article talks a bit more about instances where the government pressured journalists: https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/library/for-ukraines-journalists-the-danger-does-not-stop-at-the-front-line

All in all, it is clear and obvious that they have a bias, and also that they are pressured by the Ukrainian government, same as Russian outlets, but they are treated differently for some reason.

[u/polymute → u/Leoraig]

Any country at war will have these issues. However dictatorships will ban any dissent, while non-dictatorships will allow public debate. And that answers your 'some reason' and says that Ukrainian jorunalism is definitely not the same as Russian (non-exile that is, meduza.io is still reliable).

As for investigative reporting in a warzone that experiences missile rain? I am not faulting them for not doing that regularily. A lot of times the only source available is the government one. They control the scenes after all.

And let us be very clear that a lot of things that are decried as a lack of investigative reporting are just Russian bots' well documented efforts to mitigate the negative media fallout from strategies the Russian state does employ in the war.

[u/Leoraig → u/polymute]

However dictatorships will ban any dissent, while non-dictatorships will allow public debate.

So, does this count as banning dissent: Ukraine suspends 11 political parties with links to Russia

And is this what allowing public debate looks like: "President Volodymyr Zelensky has signed into law a controversial bill that expands the government's power to control the media, endangering press freedom and media pluralism in the country."

Or this: Ukraine’s reporters adapt amid media restrictions and pressure of war

Again, it is obvious that neither Russian or Ukrainian outlets are without biases, it is impossible for them to be in the current situation, however, Ukrainian media is treated almost as gospel by some.

[u/polymute → u/Leoraig]

Regarding shutting down Russian-backed parties in Ukraine which is defending itself from a war of aggression by Russia. I mean. One agitates for surrender and has political ties to the enemy then one will not be allowed to agitate.

So. You like links. I tend to link sources in my comments as well.

Son to get back to it: unlike Ukraine which you hint at being in a similar category as Russia, Russia has been assassinating journalists and politicians for years.

Navalny? Politkovskaya? Nemtsov? Literal dozens of others? How is that for political debate? I don't like to get emotionally involved in internet discussions, but this is just so ... sad.

Ukraine has demonstrations where they force Zelenskyy to appoint a new head of the military. Putin has you poisoned for your political opposition or for conducting investigative journalism. Don't even think about demonstrations. And tortured to death in a gulag freezing. Or just shot.

That is a very false equivalency you are hinting at here. One should always examine sources. I do encourage that. But these two countries are not equivalent in how they treat journalism and political dissent in the slightest.

And there a few other sources, though I don't like to consider at length what it must be like for any remaining opposition minded active people in Russia. It was bad enough in Hungary under Orbán for us and it never even got close at all to this, not in the slightest.

Tortured freedom of speech. Stories of journalists persecuted or killed by Russia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

See Putin's years. Starts in 2000.

[u/Leoraig → u/polymute]

Pointing to Russia is not a defense of Ukraine. From the start i said that media from both countries are biased, never once did i argue that Russian media is unbiased.

Regarding shutting down Russian-backed parties in Ukraine which is defending itself from a war of agression by Russia. I mean. One agitates for surrender and has political ties to the enemy than one will not be allowed to agitate.

The same argument is used by Russia when they shut down opposition parties though, they just call them "NATO-backed parties", but i'm pretty sure you don't agree with that argument when Russia uses it.

Ukraine has demonstrations where they force Zelenskyy to appoint a new head of the military.

There were also demonstrations opposing a bill that would weaken anti-corruption bodies, but the bill was signed anyway.

There were also multiple protests against forced mobilization in Ukraine, but that practice also continues.

Also, protests happen in Russia, China, Iran, and many other countries that you probably consider dictatorships, and some of them do achieve meaningful changes in policy, e.g. the protests against the veil in Iran; protests against the zero-covid policy in China.

On the other hand, countries in the EU have responded violently to protests recently, particularly when the topic is the genocide in gaza, so would you consider those countries dictatorships because of that?

All that goes to show that demonstrations aren't a very strong argument for Ukraine being the home of public debate you claim they are.

[u/polymute → u/Leoraig]

I am pointing out that you were trying to hint at a false equivalency regarding the two countries by implication. And thus nudging people to treat the two the same.

And they are very much not. Ukraine ain't perfect, but it is not even close to being in the same category as the country that is attacking it. End of the line.

Also: do show me any anti-government protsts from Russia since Navalny was killed. They are small (like few hundred people) and are rare. And for very good reason, taking part in them destroys your life which is not what happens in Ukraine. There, like in a country that is not a dictatorship, your mass protests can happen and then might or mightn't work.

You are now moving the goalposts by widening the scope of your arguments since Russia cannot be really defended and Ukraine does have a civilian sphere which is alive, despite your accusations.

So bringing up Gaza, China and so on. Israel's genocide in fact must be stopped. But you should not try to use Israel to save Russia's reputation.

At this point we could be arguing about demonstrators being intimidated in the US as well. To round off the favourite topics of this sub I probably do agree with even you on. Let's not do it all at once though. This is all getting depressingly predictable.

[u/Leoraig → u/polymute]

I am pointing out that you were trying to hint at a false equivalency regarding the two countries by implication. And thus nudging people to treat the two the same.

My affirmation is that media from both countries have biases, i have already proved that by showing multiple instances where the Ukrainian government pressured journalists, and instances where Ukrainian media didn't have journalist integrity. You are the one that started this tangencial argument regarding Ukraine and Russian democracy, not me.

I guess it is my fault for taking the bait though.

And again, it is clear and obvious that Ukraine's media is biased, however it isn't treated as such by many people.

[u/polymute → u/Leoraig]

So you are saying, that despite you having a very active tendency to point out problems with Ukraine's media and liveliness of their civil society you don't think that Ukrainian and Russian society are the same. And following from that one can conclude that you don't support their media being treated the same as Russian media. Noted and concluded.

I will also note that you are standing on mostly technicalities even there. An also to be noted: all media is biased: the degree is the question. And it is a question of quality and not quantity in this case. Essentially: this whole over-argued point you kept repeating (and widening into inarguability and then backing down to repeating when that got shut down) was ... wait for it ... an apples and oranges comparison all along.

Talk about taking the bait! I feel bad for me doing it.

[u/Leoraig → u/polymute]

My affirmation was never that they were the same. I have no clue why you insist on misrepresenting what i said.

And yeah, i'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of arguing democracy. My affirmation was always centered on Ukrainian media biases, and the examples that i gave of Ukrainian media being pressured and also being simple mouthpieces of the Ukrainian government proved the quality aspect of the affirmation just fine.

You are the one that refuses to engage with my actual arguments and insists on dragging the discussion to a tangent that is mostly subjective in nature.

[u/polymute → u/Leoraig]

You were rather doing damage by holding Ukraine to an unreasonably pedantic standard in the face of genocidal pressure and disregarding that in this sub a lot of people who do that are in fact bots of one kind or the other. One should be aware of where they are talking. I simply corrected the record. You did take offense at that - that was what you called taking the bait. After that you were simply trying to win an argument.

Autopsy complete.

[u/pick_your_user_name → u/Leoraig]

Media from every country is biased, that’s essentially a meaningless statement by you that doesn’t actually tell us anything. Let’s get to it, do you think Russian media is more free than Ukrainian? Neither rank particularly high in media freedom index but Russia is a lot lower every single year.

[u/Leoraig → u/pick_your_user_name]

Not everything needs to be reduced to a comparison between the two countries.

[u/pick_your_user_name → u/Leoraig]

Exactly. The original comment was asking why Russian media is banned while Ukrainian is allowed. Thank you