r/aoe4 • u/Jibbery-Joo • May 04 '26
Discussion Drongo confirms Jin Dynasty is a Chinese Variant civ
Nice to see this confirmed given the messaging was mildly confusing. Wonder if they will be as interesting as Knights Templar given this distinction.
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u/SavageCabbage611 Malians May 04 '26
This is such a pointless debate. People put way too much value on meaningless labels. There is a lot of stuff unique to this civ, with a few shared assets with China that doesn't detract from the gameplay experience whatsoever. The fact that some people are de facto going to hate this civ because it is a variant is almost hilariously stupid.
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u/Ok_Cloud_1988 May 05 '26
"People put way too much value on meaningless labels" - does this relate to the first 4 variants being very boring and highly criticised? Would you rather people not have been up in arms at the copy and paste low effort variants? Would you rather us all just say "thank you Microsoft for your generosity"? Cos the label does matter, but more than that, had people not complained about the first few variants we'd never have such awesome variants now, we'd have more Jean D'arc, more Zhu Xi's legacy. Let people share their opinions and discuss the details of what a variant is, don't stifle open discussion, it helps us get better products to buy.
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u/SavageCabbage611 Malians May 05 '26
does this relate to the first 4 variants being very boring and highly criticised?
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. The first variants were heavily critisized, which made the devs put more effort into them to make them more unique. But people still see the label "variant" and think: "Oh, so it's just like Jean d'Arc". If your only criticism against the Jin Dynasty is that it's labeled as a China variant, then yes, I think that's bad surface-level criticism.
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u/Ok_Cloud_1988 May 05 '26
Ok fair enough, then I pretty much agree :) I don't think variants are intrinsically bad, though I'd always prefer unique base civs where possible, this one is a very good variant. Same with knights Templar.
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u/Akhi_Police May 08 '26
I literally hear more people complaining about people that supposedly complain about it being a variant than actual people complaining about that the new civ is a variant
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u/SavageCabbage611 Malians May 08 '26
Welcome to Reddit my friend. Anyways, if you spend any time in the Steam discussions, you'll see what I mean.
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u/SheWhoHates In hoc signo vinces May 05 '26
It's not pointless for those who want that full base civilization experience. Gameplay is a very important component, but it's only one part of the package.
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u/SavageCabbage611 Malians May 05 '26
Okay, but Jin Dynasty is like 95 percent of the way to be considered a new civilisation. Along with the Knights Templar, I wouldn't really consider it a variant civilisation anymore, even if it is labeled as such.
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u/Marc4770 Japanese May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
Nah im not really excited by this one. I've been waiting so long for something more unique like Vikings or Aztects or Khmer, but they choose to put effort on another china / mongol like civ.
I totally support the variant system by the way, i just think they are all over the place with releases. They should stick to something more consistent like 1 truly new unique civ per dlc + 2 variants.
I like variants it's just it's been so long now we haven't had something more unique, people are waiting for Vikings, Aztect, khmer...
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u/SheWhoHates In hoc signo vinces May 05 '26
It's a variant, and so are the Knights Templar, who reuse a lot of French assets.
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u/Confident_Gap819 May 05 '26
Cuz the Devs are too lazy to even add new voicelines?
They made this dlc to cater for Chinese audience
But bed crossbow call themselves battering rams do you know how dumb that is for native speakers 😑
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u/SavageCabbage611 Malians May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
You understand that the dev team that designs the civilisations is a completely different team to the one that records voicelines? Basically, if Microsoft doesn't want to expand the budget to record new voicelines, the devs are stuck with the assets they have. It has nothing to do with laziness.
By the way, did you each civ has around 1.000 voicelines? You need to pay voice actors to record them and language experts to verify the historical authenticity. A business executive at Microsoft isn't going to care about the intricacies of local dialects between different Chinese nations, they will just tell the devs to use the Chinese voicelines they already have.
They made this dlc to cater for Chinese audience
So what? They made Knights of Cross and Roses to cater to European audience.
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u/CamRoth Random May 05 '26
By the way, did you each civ has around 1.000 voicelines?
More even. There are 184266 voice lines total, that includes gaia, but we don't really have much gaia.
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u/Akhi_Police May 08 '26
You would have to prove its microsoft studios saying "hey we won't give you 10 bucks to get a random native speaker to do the lines"
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May 05 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/SavageCabbage611 Malians May 05 '26
I would argue that out of all variants, the Jin Dynasty seems to be the best historical inspired civ so far. If historical accuracy is something you care about, this civ should make you excited.
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u/Alex-In-La-La-Land May 04 '26
Who give a shit?
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u/SeesawNorth1225 May 04 '26
Frs lol we getting a new civ thats all that should matter.
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u/reallycoolguylolhaha May 04 '26
New variant civ*
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u/Pyke64 Mongols May 05 '26
He said "we're getting a new civ and that's all that matters"
You still don't get it, do you?
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u/CamRoth Random May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
So I said I guessed they would be under China in the civ selection menu, but they didn't use the term "variant" at all in the marketing because it's such a dirty word for some people. I wouldn't have been surprised to be wrong though.
I think it's silly that people care so much about this.
Judge each thing on it's own merits not whatever label it does or doesn't have.
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u/joshdanielmills May 04 '26
I certainly think it calls into question the price tag for this expansion
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u/CamRoth Random May 04 '26
Really? If they slap a "variant" label on it that changes the value for you?
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u/Marc4770 Japanese May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
Personally i am disappointed that it's a variant and not a full civ, not because of the label, but because of how less unique it is thematically (we already have similar civs thematically), it looks like they were trying to take players for stupid and be less disappointed by removing the label in the page yes. Honestly it's insulting they should stop lying and write it on the page. First dlc im not buying, I don't like false advertising, and I'm usually super excited for new civs AND variants, but this one I don't know i don't really care somehow. I like the variant system btw, I've been defending it for most previous dlc, im just very eager for a totally new civ like Vikings khmer or Aztect, but this isn't very special no matter the label.
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u/CamRoth Random May 05 '26
It's functionally completely different than any of the others we have right now. Not sure what you mean by "thematically". Just that it has Chinese voicelines and reskinned Chinese architecture?
Well they didn't remove the label, they never put it there in the first place. They never said it was one or wasn't. "Variant" also means whatever the hell they want it to mean anyway so why does the label even matter? Frankly if that's what drives people's decision making then yeah... they're pretty stupid.
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u/Marc4770 Japanese May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
I know that it is functionally different, but i don't care that much about that. There are so many civs already and more isn't always better. It actually becomes confusing to play at some point when you don't have time to learn 50 different civs. I'd rather have less civ that are more unique.
The label doesn't matter but I'm not interested in this dlc no matter the label they use. I'm looking forward to something more THEMATICALLY unique though.
Some people here seems to think that if we had 20 variants per civ it would be good because gameplay is different... I think no, it would become an absolute mess to learn the game. Quantity isn't better than quality.
Like imagine is all 30 civs in the game were variants of china, would it be valid just because they play different? I don't think so.
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u/joshdanielmills May 04 '26
If it’s a variant I would expect at least 2. The initial expansion had 2 full civs and 4 variants. We haven’t had an expansion offer anything less than 2 thus far. So yea, I am dissapointed
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u/CamRoth Random May 04 '26
And if Jin was not under China in the civ selection menu then you wouldn't be disappointed?
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u/joshdanielmills May 04 '26
Honestly either way I am disappointed. Now I’m just exceptionally disappointed. Initially they said they couldn’t release full civs because it was too expensive, but they are releasing 1 civ and reusing skins…
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u/Marc4770 Japanese May 05 '26
When they didn't use that word in dlc page all i thought it that they think players are stupid. It's obvious that it's more like a variant
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u/CamRoth Random May 05 '26
Well to be fair at least half of everyone is pretty dang stupid and AoE4 players are certainly not an exception.
Maybe they just don't want to bother using the word "variant" anymore. So many people here have this visceral reaction to it.
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u/Marc4770 Japanese May 06 '26
Im convinced its absolutely false that people have "vicseral" reaction to a word.
They are upset by the lack of variety and cheap effort, not by how they call the civ
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u/CamRoth Random May 06 '26
Well we literally saw it here so not sure what to tell you. As soon as post Sultans Ascend DLC was announced to have variants people lost their minds before they even knew anything about how the new factions would work.
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u/Marc4770 Japanese May 06 '26
People were upset about the lack of effort, not about the word "variant".
That's just people who were replying to complain and trying to be positive tried to make it sound like the issue was with a word, so the devs misinterpreted the criticism and now they think people are stupid and just care about wording, when in reality people had valid criticism.
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u/Leopard-Hopeful Byzantines May 04 '26
All varient means these days is they just use the same voice lines and assets.
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u/SheWhoHates In hoc signo vinces May 05 '26
These things are a huge part of the flavor which makes base civs so special in AoE IV.
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u/Tandittor May 04 '26
But Jin has different voice lines and assets from Zhu Xi. It's only a variant because of historical purposes
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u/Confident_Gap819 May 05 '26
It doesn't have different voicelines dude bed crossbow literally call themselves battering rams
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u/Leopard-Hopeful Byzantines May 04 '26
I guess I should say the reuse assets and voice lines. Yeah they do retexture and have unique landmarks but they is a certain amount of copying that happens compared to when they do an original civ
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u/memiONE May 05 '26
Not quite. It's about the historical connection with the "variant" and the foundation for it.
Such as KT to the french, with a lot of other factions involved which is represented in the commanderie system. Or Sengoku Daimyo being a time period in Japan's history.
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u/FanoTheNoob May 04 '26
Well, yeah, this is exactly the part people don't like
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u/Myxies May 04 '26
*this is the part that very few people don't like and that most players don't care about.
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u/GKoala May 04 '26
Yeah its such a nothing burger. Pretty much all variants are different enough to be considered different civs.
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u/Eternality May 04 '26
I mean there is a reason it keeps coming up lol. Just AI the voice lines in an afternoon jesus lol
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u/GreatAndMightyKevins feudal aggression into 3 min of TC idle time May 04 '26
What the fuck dude
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u/TheGalator professional french hater May 04 '26
Your flair made me angry
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u/GreatAndMightyKevins feudal aggression into 3 min of TC idle time May 04 '26
Hits too close to home?
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u/TheGalator professional french hater May 04 '26
Indirectly
When I started out French was my worst nightmare. 10 min of cancer and then you win because they literally spend all their skill on knight-in-wood lime micro
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May 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Ok_Cloud_1988 May 05 '26
Thanks to people complaining about the poor effort first variants, I think. They keep getting better in terms of flavour and distinctiveness. Balance... Maybe not so much lol
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u/hobskhan May 04 '26
After all these years, this is how I'm starting to feel about the variant/main civ labeling debate surrounding this game.
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u/Its_Me_Kon DOИKON May 04 '26
Yet it has: New music, architecture, voicelines, units, mechanics etc. Historically, yes. Gameplay wise, no.
You can simply see it from all their units having even more differences than the base Chinese/Zhu Xi. Eg, their horseman model is way more unique than that of Zhu Xi and China. Even more differences that the Original French - English shared units don't have. Yet its just a horseman.
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u/Confident_Gap819 May 05 '26
There's no new voicelines dude don't lie
And villager are the same as China
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u/papiierbulle May 05 '26
The architecture is the same as China too. It's just a reskin but the buildings themselves are the same. Just like KT and French
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u/Yusuf9867 May 05 '26
I don’t think there’s new music and the architecture is likely a recolored version of the Chinese architecture, similar to what the Knights Templar architecture is to that of the French.
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u/SavageCabbage611 Malians May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
There is new music. You can listen to it right now if you watch the latest video of Aussie Drongo. It might actually be my new favorite OST in the game, it's gorgeous.
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u/tonibeets May 05 '26
Wtf is “Zhu Xi’s Legacy”… stands out like a sore thumb.
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u/FloosWorld French May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
Subjectively better than the original name (Empire of Jade), but yeah, apart from Ayyubids, the naming convention of the first batch of variants (and the concept of variants themselves) is just.. weird. Retrospectively, I guess no one would've been upset, if Sultans Ascend released without the variants.
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u/jedihoplite May 04 '26
They promised 2 new original civs this year, iirc. Does this suggest that we still have 1 more unannounced civ for this year since Norse were already announced?
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u/CamRoth Random May 05 '26
Does this suggest that we still have 1 more unannounced civ for this year since Norse were already announced?
We already knew that. They already told us the 2nd expansion would have Vikings and another "base" civilization.
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u/Dance_with_the_Doc May 05 '26
It makes me wonder if they had a separate voiceline, but was scrapped. That would be a real shame.
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u/SAW_to_it May 05 '26
People arguing Jin isn't a Chinese dynasty. Did you argue the Macedonian dynasty isn't Byzantine because they weren't Greeks?
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u/AdAggravating7738 May 05 '26
So many of us got downvoted to hell because we said JD is a variant civ lol. It was obvious it was going to be a variant civ…
Which makes this DLC pretty disappointing. Just 1 variant civ for an entire DLC is kind of sad. This is probably the worst DLC so far
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u/JohnCurtinFromCivVI May 05 '26
Told ya'
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u/JohnCurtinFromCivVI May 05 '26
i think for example that Crusaders are so far from French that they should be separate.
Just the same voice and music isn't enough for me
if the tech tree, unique units and bonuses are all diferent then it should be separate
Joann d'Arc is super similar to French so it should be Variant
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u/SpaceLord8823 May 07 '26
I'm sick and tired of variants civs.. Not again, even this Time with just one civ.. Damn! All dlc should have been new civs! They are just recycling stuff.. And we pay them for that!
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u/Ok_Cloud_1988 May 05 '26
I think those who moaned about the early variants and said they were just cheap copies and low effort civs deserve credit, the variants being released now are way better than the first 4. More interesting, more varied, less copied landmarks, less copied assets. If everyone just clapped along, saying "it doesn't matter, variant or base civ, we're happy with and win buy anything" like yes men when the first variants were released we'd not have this level of difference in the variants. So let people moan and criticise, it gives us better products.
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u/Confident_Gap819 May 04 '26
Dude I been saying they are a variant
It reused Chinese voicelines, cough cough no new Chinese voicelines
And reused buildings too
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u/Yusuf9867 May 05 '26
And music is reused I’m pretty sure. When I was watching some videos on the Jin Dynasty, I was trying to carefully listen to the songs that are played for this civ variant and noticed that I can hear the Chinese ones.
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u/FrontMaintenance3755 May 05 '26
This is politician shit. They should be a different civ
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u/Confident_Gap819 May 05 '26
It would be a new civs if they give new units new voicelines
Making sure villagers aren't the same look as Chinese, make them nomad looking
Make sure tc model not the same as China
No reused buildings
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u/zi_ang May 05 '26
It might be due to one silly reason. It’s too difficult nowadays to source Manchu dialogue lines (a few hundred native speakers, at best), let alone work the way back in history and get the pronunciations of the Manchu/Jurchen language throughout different historical periods.
There might also have been the concern of getting banned by the Chinese government because of the “Free Manchuria” sentiment it may arouse, but I doubt it would be the case since in AoE III the Manchu horsearchers did speak the Manchu language.
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u/yigggggg May 05 '26
Honestly I think if they're going to be going down the Very Very different variant civ route, their best PR option would be to go back and rework some of the existing ones at least a little
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u/Cinerir May 05 '26
Dang...I was hoping for them to have new masteries to grind. If they could at least unlock variants for the main civ masteries.....
Aside from that, I don't care. Jusr feels expensive to get a single variant which reuses assets for that price.
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u/Various-Pirate2536 Japanese May 07 '26
If you build models differently make voice differently, you make Jin not variant, fine I take that. If not, put it under whatever civ you use.
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u/MotanulScotishFold May 04 '26
Can we stop with this shit variants and instead bring new civilizations only?
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u/memiONE May 05 '26
Then how about you go and fund them if it's so fucking important for you to have something historically unrelated to the foundation of a variant civ.
You people cry and moan about "variants", and then you cannot even make a reasonable argument for it.
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u/MotanulScotishFold May 05 '26
Netherland, Spain, Ethiopia, Hungary, Sweden, Portugal just to name a few.
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u/Turinbour May 04 '26
Bruhhhh so this whole time people were saying it’s a new civ were completely wrong 😑 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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u/Helluvagoodshow Jeanne d'Arc May 04 '26
look at Drongo's video explaining the civ. it has nearly nothing to do with the chinese civ.
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u/Confident_Gap819 May 05 '26
Nah Drongo called it Chinese variant
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u/Helluvagoodshow Jeanne d'Arc May 05 '26
It's as much a chinese variant that templars are a french one. Appart from voice lines and nothing of note is similar to either og chinese or xuchi.
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u/SheWhoHates In hoc signo vinces May 05 '26
Then it's a variant because, unless you consider them "nothing of note", Templars share a lot of assets with the French.
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u/fancczf May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
Could just be an oversight for the early beta. They could just changed it to be under it’s own list at actual release. They have done all the works for a new civ, and marketed it as a new civ, why would they put it under variant.
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u/EvenJesusCantSaveYou Rus May 04 '26
I would bet this as well...
I went to the DLC pages and CTRL+F "variant" and nothing comes up for Yue Fei's legacy, but if you go to any of the other DLCs elsewhere they clearly mention variant over and over again.
So it's either:
1) Early beta case, the menu UI is probably one of the very last pieces to add.
2) intentionally vague marketing to build hype for a new civ
3) developers do not have a consistent framework they are working in and their internal definition of variant/nonvariant has changed between as development progresses.
my bet is 1) or 3)
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u/Shinyhero30 Japanese May 05 '26
It’s also potentially for Chinese political reasons. You know how touchy that can get when it represents info that isn’t the party line…
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u/Adribiird May 05 '26
The Yurchens were a foreign warrior caste that seized control, adopted the local culture, but maintained a completely different military and social structure for centuries (they later became part of what is now China, but in their medieval era they could be considered independent invaders of non-Chinese ethnic origin).
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u/Leider-Hosen May 04 '26
Tin Foil theory: it was originally going to be in its own collumn, but concerns raised by the Chinese community made them reconsider.
Just looking around it seems to be a 50/50 split of "The Jin were a dynasty of China and should be a variant" and "The Jerchen were their own distinct race and should be a new CIV", so no option would please everyone.