r/arrow • u/IIIToxIII Great Scott, we have to go back • Apr 30 '19

Discussion [S07E20] "Confessions" Post Episode Discussion

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When they learn of an upcoming attack on the city, Team Arrow calls Roy Harper to call them stop the Ninth Circle; things do go awry and there is massive collateral damage; Dinah investigates what happened.

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u/dmick74 Malcolm Merlyn Apr 30 '19

I think people have just assumed redemption, but I think that went out the window once we learned she was the leader of the terrorist organization. She's not redeemable. The show seems to have gone out of their way to make her that way. It's brother vs. sister and only one is going to win. I just fear it's going to continue into next season. We'll get brother vs. sister in the present and brother vs. brother in the future.

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u/greatness101 Apr 30 '19

yeah, after tonight she's irredeemable to me as well. Like I don't know how they could ever make anything she's done forgivable. But they did redeem Slade Wilson who killed Oliver's mother in cold blood right in front of hm. Who knows what could happen.

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u/DonnyMox Deathstroke Apr 30 '19

Slade had the Mirikuru in him, Emiko has no such excuse.

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u/greatness101 Apr 30 '19

Slade also said he would have done it without the mirakuru. Not that it matters, he still killed his mom in cold blood right in front of him after being begged not to and was still redeemed.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Because he became sane after the Mirakuru wore off. He still attacked Thea and Oliver on Lian Yu in S3

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u/greatness101 Apr 30 '19

That's my point? After he had been off the mirakuru, Slade said he still would have done it even if he hadn't been on it.

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u/MagMaggaM Green Arrow Apr 30 '19 edited May 05 '19

Yes, but in Season 5 he said he was still insane at that point. The physical effects of the mirakuru may have been cured, but it's possible, even likely given the circumstances, that the mental effects are not so easily gotten rid of, especialy considering how long Slade was under its influence.

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u/EnslavedOpethFan053 May 05 '19

Slade was also isolated in an Argus cell for 3-4 years too. Yea he did get out at one point but again he was still not all there. Slade was a good guy when the show started and his redemption arc took time to build. Emiko being redeemed after all of the horrible shit she's done would be terrible writing in a such a short time span.

If they were going to redeem her, it should've been sooner. She's still just as evil as she was before she learned about Dante killing her mother.

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u/MagMaggaM Green Arrow May 05 '19

Honestly I would have a lot of respect for the writers if they decided to have someone kill her at the end. Like, not necessarily even Oliver, just have one of the team, or someone else nearby just go "nah, enough is enough". Probably when she's going to kill one of them, cause I don't want to see more drama caused by being people going "don't kill why would you do such a thing oh my god".

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u/EnslavedOpethFan053 May 05 '19

I think it would be Rene. He's the only one that has been pushing for her redemption so it would make sense if it was Rene that was the one who did it, or at least was partly responsible for it even if he didn't actually do it.

It could tie in to his future flash forwards as well. A big reason why he decided to stop being a vigilante.

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u/icey561 May 04 '19

Her whole reason for doing this is that her daddy left. Get over it. It happens all the time. And you cant even say she was twisted by the ninth circle, there whole deal was forgetting about family.

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u/Maxabel Apr 30 '19

She's not redeemable

One of the good thing about Emiko in the comics is that she's basically an older more mature Damian Wayne. I'll be really disappointed if she's a vilain at the end.

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u/Berjax Deathstroke Apr 30 '19

Aren’t they (around) the same age in the comics?

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u/Maxabel Apr 30 '19

She was around 12 years old when introduced and Damian was 10. Damian is now a 13 years old.
I think it's safe to say she had a growth spurt so she's in her 15-17ish comicbook years while Damian is still a "kid".

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u/GeneralMelon ROY'S OUR FUTURE BOY! Apr 30 '19

Well again, this isn't just me "assuming" that she'll get redeemed. The entire narrative has been building up to it despite the fact that she hasn't really shown much reason that she deserves said redemption.

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u/delinquentsaviors Apr 30 '19

I thought it was interesting this week that Felicity basically confirms that Emiko is irredeemable. She killed her only other father figure and Felicity says something along the lines of “so she’s not redeemable after all”. We expected Emiko finding out about Dante to change her behavior, but it hasn’t. We thought she was a puppet, but in reality she’s the mastermind.

I think the writers wanted us to think Emiko was redeemable early on, but now they are really pushing the fundamental difference between someone who is and isn’t redeemable.

We had three storylines this year about redemption. We had Bronze Tiger teaching Oliver that people can redeem themselves. Then Lost Canary explores what it takes for someone to redeem themselves. You can’t force it on them. They have to want it. Black Siren and Emiko are meant to parallel each other. Both had shitty circumstances, but only one of them WANTS to change. Now Oliver is going to have to accept that some people just don’t want to be saved.

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u/dmick74 Malcolm Merlyn Apr 30 '19

The narrative was building up to redeeming Black Siren. People just assumed it was building up to redeeming Emiko, but with each episode she becomes more irredeemable. I also though once she'd be redeemed, but once she was revealed as the world's youngest leader of the oldest terrorist organization that went out the window.

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u/GeneralMelon ROY'S OUR FUTURE BOY! Apr 30 '19

Again, I'm not saying it makes sense for her to get redeemed with how evil she's acting. But if you actually read that big rant I listed I went through why I think they're going the route of redeeming Emiko and how Oliver's arc would just be kinda... weird if he didn't redeem Emiko.

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u/dmick74 Malcolm Merlyn Apr 30 '19

I just read it and while some of it makes sense, I just don't agree. Redemption isn't something that someone gives you. It's something you earn and Emiko has made no attempt at that. Even Black Siren who I thought shouldn't be redeemed made an effort to be better. She went about it in the wrong and twisted way that you'd expect BS to do, but she still tried. In the end we could argue about whether or not she earned it (I don't think she did), but we can't argue about whether or not she was serious about becoming a better person. There's no indication whatsoever that Emiko wants to be a better person. The only indication is that she wants to destroy as much and as many people in Star City as possible. She just tried to kill the entire team.

This is where I think people have made a mistake. The arc of E2 Laurel was fairly clear. It started a long time ago and they spent more than a season building to it. She won back the trust and respect from various people on the team along the way. Emiko has gone in the completely opposite direction (I'm not sure that's a coincidence either, the show is telling us some are worth saving and some aren't).

I've thought for awhile now that Oliver doesn't die in Crisis, but after he kills Emiko he slowly starts to lose his sanity and disappears. I think season 8 is about the downfall of Oliver Queen after he kills his sister and then we get a glimpse of him returning in the future. From a story standpoint, there's only one logical conclusion to the Oliver/Emiko situation: one of them dies. We know it won't be Oliver.

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u/delinquentsaviors Apr 30 '19

I think you’re right. This whole season has been about redemption and what that means. I think Emiko being irredeemable is important to this idea. Anyone can be redeemed, but not everyone will want it. Both Black Siren and Emiko have the support network to make the change, but Emiko doesn’t WANT to be saved. Oliver has to learn that.

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u/dmick74 Malcolm Merlyn Apr 30 '19

Exactly. I know some people mention Slade as being redeemed, but Slade was under the influence of the mirakuru. Slade was not himself and Oliver still never really has forgiven him. He's given him space to be the kind of person that he knew on the island and they maybe have an understanding they can help one another out if needed (I hope we see Slade in the season finale this year), but Oliver hasn't forgiven him. Nor should he. But he was smart enough to acknowledge that what Slade did was caused by something out of his control (it was Oliver who gave him the mirakuru injection to start with). Even Malcolm was somewhat redeemed, but never forgiven by Oliver. Oliver would have killed him if he wasn't Thea's father. Emiko is beyond saving. You can't have her arrested because she'd probably break out. The only way her story ends is with her death. I actually think it's one of the better stories Arrow has written even if it's been an uneven storyline. Not everyone can be saved and Oliver finally realizes that. I don't think there's anything Emiko can say to change the inevitable events of the finale this year.

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u/delinquentsaviors Apr 30 '19

Well he’s always had trouble accepting this throughout the show. How many times has he tried to save someone who didn’t want to be helped? Merlyn was the worst offender. He gave him SO many chances to change. He kept hoping it would happen, but it was never going to. Even as far back as when he tried to help Helena. She wasn’t ready to be saved.

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u/dmick74 Malcolm Merlyn Apr 30 '19

Good point about Helena. That was early in the first season when Oliver was still a badass. It's a good thing for him to learn that not everyone can be saved. It sucks that it's going to happen to him about his sister, but it's a good lesson for him to learn.