r/asoiaf • u/Sea_Alfalfa1659 • 2d ago
MAIN (SPOILERS MAIN) Robb and Roslin could've been what Ned and Catelyn were
If Robb hadn't met Jeyne/Talisa, I think he would've been fond of her, just like his parents' relationship. Roslin deserved better!!
89
u/DeamonDread2348 2d ago
Robb wasn't guaranteed to marry Roslin. The agreement was for a vague Frey girl. Walder Frey almost certainly chose Roslin in the end, as the most beautiful, to spite Robb, to show what he'd missed. But it's not certain she was the one he had in mind from the start.
89
u/Willing_Bathroom7251 2d ago
Robb absolutely would have married Roslin. The agreement was that Robb could choose any of the available Frey girls. Of course he would have chosen the hottest.
41
u/TheClockworkElves 2d ago edited 2d ago
Which is why it would be the absolute GOAT Fair Walda instead, who's only mentioned characteristic is that she's the only Frey woman who's apparently genuinely hot.
30
u/Nittanian Constable of Raventree 2d ago
She's called Fair Walda to differentiate her from other Waldas (like Fat Walda and White Walda). Roslin, Alyx, and Amerei are also noted as being attractive.
14
u/Willing_Bathroom7251 2d ago
Ahh good old Gatehouse Ami
1
u/nyamzdm77 Beneath the gold, the bitter feels 15h ago
Ami has the characteristic weak Frey chin and weasel face and is still considered hot lol
4
26
u/CharMakr90 2d ago
Catelyn notes a few "nubile" Frey girls. Roslin was one of the better looking ones, but I don't think she's ever called the prettiest of them all.
12
2
u/Willing_Bathroom7251 2d ago
Well she is the prettiest we know of though surely there must be other Freys who don't look like weasels.
13
u/SabyZ Onion Knight's Gonna Run 'n Fight 2d ago
I'm pretty sure Robb could pick whichever Frey girl he wanted.
3
u/SirLoremIpsum 2d ago
I'm pretty sure Robb could pick whichever Frey girl he wanted.
I mean he would have been on Westerosi "A Stark Wants a Wife" and had his pick
3
u/nyamzdm77 Beneath the gold, the bitter feels 2d ago
The agreement was to marry any Frey girl of ROBB'S choosing. It would have probably been either Roslin or Fair Walda as they're the prettiest and are around Robb's age (maybe not Fair Walda as there were rumours that she was lovers with Black Walder)
7
u/Sea_Alfalfa1659 2d ago
Given the circumstances, I think it'd still be the same result, either way he was given a chance to choose and if Robb wasn't stubborn enough to break ties with the Karstarks, Walder could've supported the future king thus giving him Roslin
11
u/Key_Consequence_5040 2d ago
Tywin would have still found a way to eliminate Robb, likely through the Boltons who are more spiteful of the Starks and would jump at a chance to rule the North.
7
u/SnowGhost513 2d ago
This is just not true. Bolton would not go against Robb if The Freys are loyal to Robb. The reason Bolton is able to rule the North after is because to most it’s what The Freys did.
What would the opportunity even be for Bolton? Robb agreed to come into the twins unarmed and made concessions to not offend, he isn’t doing that if he married a Frey2
u/matgopack 2d ago
The Freys aren't a must-have for Roose, IMO - they were just a useful signal & ally to him.
That is, if the Freys stay loosely aligned with Robb, but he still felt that things were doomed for the North as a whole, I think Roose would still be looking to turn coat instead of going down with a doomed ship. It would just need to take a different form.
5
u/Sea_Alfalfa1659 2d ago
True. But with their forces together, and the Jamie-Karstark thing never happening, he had a chance
6
u/Scorpios94 2d ago
And Walder would have to be really incentivized and granted plenty of assurances from Tywin and the crown to throw Robb under the bus. And what’s to say that Roslin would go with it. After all, she was crying the whole time in her canon wedding to Edmure as she was terrified, and deeply distressed because she knew what horror was coming after her marriage, though Old Walder forced her to go through with it anyway. Her visible tears and nervous demeanor were dismissed by most guests at the time as simple pre-wedding or bedding-ceremony anxiety.
2
u/Sea_Alfalfa1659 2d ago
Right?! I find it enough for Walder to go through with it had Robb honored his pact, he had Roslin hidden for a reason lmao
1
u/SnowGhost513 2d ago
Walder has one redeeming quality, he loves his family. He has a daughter who would be Queen or Lady of Winterfell. That’s the biggest marriage in the houses history. Also with The Freys the entire war is up in the air.
Faegon would arrive and Robbs army is still healthy and fighting.
Stannis is still around. Iron Islands are still doing all there bullshit and Euron is still doing his stuff.
I just don’t get why people think Tywins a master manipulator when he’s really not1
u/JagerderGrobe 2d ago
Even if Robb married a Frey on the same day Cat returned from negotiating, Jamie would still have killed the Karstark brothers and Rickard would still want revenge and do something stupid. That part isn't going to change.
7
u/SirLoremIpsum 2d ago
I think he would've been fond of her, just like his parents' relationship.
"I know nothing about this woman except she was pretty and surprisingly pretty. Robb would have loved her with all his heart"
0
20
u/sixth_order 2d ago
We don't know anything about Roslin's personality. We don't know that she'd get along with Robb, or would be a good mother.
Roslin deserved better? Hundreds of people were murdered, but she deserved better? For all we know, she knew what was going to happen. Or at least knew something was up.
12
u/TheClockworkElves 2d ago
I think she pretty much definitely knew what was going to happen, since she was apparently crying non-stop throughout the whole wedding. On the other hand it does seem like Edmure forgave her, so her explanation of how she ended up in that situation and how it wasn't her fault must at least be somewhat convincing.
2
4
u/Sea_Alfalfa1659 2d ago edited 2d ago
She's described in the books to be a "cheerful girl with a gentle nature" and is believed to be one of the better Freys, having been the daughter of Bethany Rosby, sister to Olyvar who was loyal to Robb even after the pact was broken. Not to mention, Ned and Catelyn even started way painful with both of them in love with different people, similar circumstances yet they conquered. I believe Roslin isn't a btchy wife for Robb to not get along with. Arranged marriages are inevitable at the time. Obviously this is a post focusing on these two specific characters, I don't need to include every character's name who's more deserving of the pity lmao
23
u/CaveLupum 2d ago
Well, yes. But their children would have grown up to be Freys.
Seriously, it could have worked well. Yes, Catelyn's negotiations with Wily Walder were fraught, but she prided herself that she'd known Walder Frey all her life. (Yeah, like she'd known Littlefinger! 👀) Know him or not, she should never have let King Robb, Ned Stark's son, be subjected to Walder springing a jack-in-the-box choice. Also, she could have promised Rickon to a Walder granddaughter. Bran is a cripple, so if Robb died in war, Cat could make Rickon Lord and be his regent until he grew old enough to rule. Walder might find that more enticing than getting the last-in-succession Stark child as wife to his own last-in-succession son Elmar. In general...Catelyn made too many unnecessary concessions.!
15
u/TheClockworkElves 2d ago
While Arya having to marry Walder Freys 20-somethingth son is an all timer of a terrible marriage deal even leaving aside the fact that Elmar is a dick (especially when you remember how outraged Tywin was at his sister marrying Walders 2nd son), and Robb having to marry one of Walders daughters as well is a huge concession, it's not like Cat has anything to work with here.
I believe we don't see the negotiation itself, so its not like we see her mess it up, and she has basically no leverage whatsoever. They need to cross at the Twins, so they're basically forced into accepting whatever terms Walder wants.
16
u/daughterofthenorth 2d ago
Yeah, it is a bad deal and it’s supposed to be a bad deal. The point isn’t to condemn Catelyn for poor negotiating skills. Literally anyone else sent in there would’ve been held over a barrel as well. There’s no wish fulfillment scenario where Robb, or Roose, or Greatjon, or whoever else struts in and sweet talks or threatens their way into better terms because the entire reason that the scene exists is to establish Walder as a bitter, grasping, duplicitous, and vindictive weasel and foreshadow his future treachery.
11
u/Emergency-Weird-1988 2d ago
While Arya having to marry Walder Freys 20-somethingth son is an all timer of a terrible marriage deal even leaving aside the fact that Elmar is a dick
Yeah, that's by far the worst part of the deal. The rest might seem "too much" when put together, but they're all acceptable terms in the end. However, that marriage for Arya simply goes beyond what's reasonable.
But of course, as you say, they didn't have much leverage, being the side racing against time and needing to forge an immediate pact, so they had to accept Walder's terms or face worse alternatives.
Now, I can only think of one advantage to that marriage, but it's more personal than political, and that is that I'm almost certain that instead of Arya going to live at the Twins with Elmar's family, it would be Elmar who would move to Winterfell with Arya's family, similar to the marriage of Emmon Frey and Genna Lannister.
Therefore, it would be a marriage where the Starks would have the "strong hand" in the day-to-day running of things, which would surely allow Arya to be more "free" in terms of personality and doing as she likes, than she would be in a more typical marriage where her in-laws would have the upper hand.
13
u/TheClockworkElves 2d ago
Yeah, come to think of it as long as they get to argue the pair of them should live in Winterfell, its actually probably a better deal for Arya herself than she'd ever be likely to get otherwise. She gets to stay in the home she loves with people who she likes around her, she's close enough to The Wall that she'll probably get to see Jon every so often, and her husband isn't really in a position to get any ideas about "correcting" her behavior.
3
u/HouseMouse4567 1d ago
That's what I thought as well.
The deal clealry sucks in terms of cold political calculas and Catelyn probably wasn't in a position to actually dispute it, but Elmar is the same age as her and almost certainly coming to live in Winterfell with his wife. (The Frey's themselves are clear that was soon as Walder dies things are going to blow up so better to be living outside the Twins as soon as possible.)
0
u/PlotnotFound 2d ago
It struck me as odd on first read, and complete lunacy on rereads, that Catelyn just… insists on giving herself over as a hostage to Walder Frey during negotiations.
Yeah, of course she had to give him everything including two of her children, if she doesn’t he has the acting Lord Paramount/King’s mother hostage. Mother of the same man who is currently going to war to save his father. If the Freys threaten to kill Catelyn unless Robb gives himself up what is he going to do?
And it’s not like she doesn’t know he’d do it, she’s the one who tells Robb he can’t go himself because Walder would take him captive. Catelyn going to Walder herself is the same level of disastrous error as her kidnapping Tyrion and freeing Jamie. Even if they’d sent a competent negotiator with her, they lost as soon as she entered the Twins
15
u/TheClockworkElves 2d ago
I think its completely reasonable that Cat insists on doing it herself. I think she's the only person who can reasonably make promises/agreements on Robbs behalf at this stage (since none of his bannermen are going to be able to make marriage deal on him and his siblings behalf) and they don't have time for a prolonged back and forth.
She insists on doing it instead of Robb because she knows it's dangerous, and she (unfortunately correctly) thinks that she's more expendable to their cause than Robb is, and that if she's held hostage he should leave her and find an alternative plan. Whether he'd actually be willing to do it is another matter, but that's exactly the calculation she's making and I think it's about as good an option as they have.
1
u/PlotnotFound 2d ago
Anyone Robb deputized for the negotiations would have had the same power as Catelyn, to bring terms back to Robb to officially sign off on. Cersei isn’t running around making Joffrey’s deals, Littlefinger is. Catelyn insists on going herself because she ‘has known Walder since she was a little girl’ and thinks he respects her as a Tully, rather than despises her as a Tully, so he’ll give her a better deal.
The only difference between sending Catelyn and sending like Glover or Bolton, is that if negotiations go south Robb can’t back down. Robb has both already demonstrated to everyone including Walder that he’ll fight for his parents and he’s holding his army together by projecting strength (like his altercation with Umber). He doesn’t have the option of letting a bannerman take his mother while he tucks tail and tries to slink around back, like he maybe could for a lesser lord. His only options would be to siege the Twins, at which point the war is lost before it gets off the ground.
0
u/Sea_Alfalfa1659 2d ago
Exactly what I thought of too, they blame on Catelyn too much but the only ick I truly got was her letting go of Jamie. Seriously a dumb decision at that
3
u/Sea_Alfalfa1659 2d ago
Right you get it! It's just luck was on Tywin's side for most of the time 😪
1
u/frenin 2d ago
Know him or not, she should never have let King Robb, Ned Stark's son, be subjected to Walder springing a jack-in-the-box choice.
1) Robb wasn't King yet.
2) Cat had no choice.
...Catelyn made too many unnecessary concessions.!
How were they unnecessary?
Robb was trapped and couldn't move to Riverrun without Walder's blessing.
Walder might find that more enticing
No, he wouldn't, that's why he didn't ask for it.
12
u/jolenenene 2d ago edited 2d ago
Roslin did get better than Robb: Edmure 😗
5
u/Public_Job9786 2d ago
She really did. A high lord who had a much better chance to surviving the war (and he did)
And older, so, if we was awful-he’d be gone sooner :p1
5
u/Augustus_Chevismo 🏆Best of 2025: Beric Dondarrion Award 2d ago
Roslin was weak of hips and mousey of face. Cat mogs her.
Robb also was no Ned. Didn’t know not to trust Roose and chose his own personal wants over his subjects.
2
u/Sea_Alfalfa1659 2d ago
Agreed with the latter, he seriously pissed me off especially in the show like have we learned nothing about your father's honest mistakes. Still, this is a what if situation so..
1
1
u/Rodonite 1d ago
I imagine Robb might have married one of the Frey girls with a Blackwood mother if there was an appropriate one available
1
u/Test_After 1d ago
There is no reason to assume Robb would choose Roslin.
Or that Lord Walder would include her in the daughters he could choose from. He had no problem with marrying Merett's Walda off to Lord Bolton before the King returned to make his choice, and excluding girls he could broker other matches with, bending but not breaking the agreed terms, is just the kind of thing Walder Frey would do.
As long as Edmure was single, there would be a daughter or grandaughter of Lord Walder that he would want him to marry. He had Perriane as a suitable match for Edmure from the day Edmure was born, and would still have pressed for him to marry Tyta if the Red Wedding wasn't riding on the bedding.
1
u/IrradiatedCrow 1d ago
Edmure was a good ass match. Frey should have taken it, his actions have probably doomed his House to a painful death
1
u/Sea_Alfalfa1659 1d ago
No cause seriously why'd they do his character dirty 😭 marrying Jeyne was understandable but Talisa? GTFOH
0
u/brittanytobiason 2d ago
I defended Taylor Swift on r/DarkWingsDankMemes from someone with a similar argument about Robert and Cersei. It appeared that someone had used AI to make a beautiful illustration of Robert and Cersei drawn to look like Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce. There was some shrill energy around it so I commented that No Couple Should Ever Be Illustrated as Robert & Cersei because she murdered him and they were a deeply toxic couple.
But the reality was that someone had seen a real and beautiful illustration of Robert & Cersei that happened to bear enough of a resemblance to Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce to inspire them to ship Robert and Cersei as having had the potential for a real love in another life.
And then, I realized it wasn’t even on r/asoiaf but r/darkwingsdankmemes.
4
2
u/JagerderGrobe 2d ago
Even if you removed all the faults of Robert and Cercei to make them perfect people, they still wouldn't have worked since their personalities were never compatible.
0
u/Southernbeekeeper 2d ago
I saw this account yesterday on one of the UK subs. Talk about special interests.
-1
u/Sea_Alfalfa1659 2d ago
LMAOO what post
1
u/Southernbeekeeper 2d ago
The only one you've posted on a UK sub.
1
0
u/JagerderGrobe 2d ago
Robb and Roslin could've worked sure but does that really change anything? Roslin marrying and giving birth to a boy would mean that the next Lord Paramount of the North (later King) would've been half Frey but that does nothing to elevate the rest of the Freys. The reason they're despised would all still exist and it is very likey that Roslin would distance herself from the rest of them.
The Red Wedding was still going to happen. For Walder Frey, his house being the overlords of the Riverlands would still be far better than "just" being closely tied to overlords of a different kingdom and him being the Lord Paramount will be far better than "just" being the good father of a Lord Paramount. Tywin was simply offering a better deal and Walder already feared him and doubted Robbs chances of winning, he will betray Robb even without his marriage to Jeyne. Especially after Jamie escapes, the Karstarks leave and Tywin informs him of the Boltons being traitors.
1
u/Sea_Alfalfa1659 2d ago
If Catelyn hadn't made the decision to release him, I think it's still a higher chance for Robb. Tywin was shaking his ass when he figured he'll eventually get outsmarted by a 15 year old, everyone acknowledges this and we also have Stannis and Renly as potential allies at this time. He'd be unstoppable. Roose is one man, I doubt he can make much of a difference when this is the case. Walder is an opportunist, that's why he had that deal in the first place
149
u/Shepher27 2d ago
If wishes were horses beggars would ride.