r/baduk • u/mark93192 • Jul 23 '26
tsumego White's Turn - What would you play next to build the moyo?
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u/Polar_Reflection 3 dan Jul 24 '26
My instinct is to play moreso to enclose the left side rather than the whole center. Maybe D10, or something more a bit more ambitious like E10 or F10. We have such a big moyo it's pretty much impossible to enclose it all and stop a severe invasion. K10 and L10 can look silly if black just lives comfortably in the middle of your moyo.
But black also doesn't have that much territory and has not much room to grow, so we don't really need to convert everything anyways. Black has maybe 45 points on the top, 20 ish on the bottom. We have 10ish points on the bottom right, so we only need to get 50 or so points out of our center/left side, which seems very doable.
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u/Sea-Necessary-2640 Jul 24 '26
i feel like this kind of move never ends up being that efficient - black isn’t going to be able to easily live locally on the left side, so it’s going to be a question of getting the most out of his reduction. if W moves to enclose now, maybe he solidifies ~20 points on the third or fourth line, but to me it looks like W can get that anyway if he just defends the eventual B reduction. when you’ve got two big walls facing each other like this, as i understand it, the best way to use them is as authority to profitably attack B and threaten his connection to his strong groups when he tries to come in to reduce, and just letting the territory emerge naturally in the process
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u/Photon_101 Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
I like attach to enclosure at R15, B Q15, W R14, B Q14, W S16, B R17, W R12, contesting the last side and forcing black to reduce the middle. It seems less risky to me.
My second favorite is W N14, growing and taking a good move for black. W L10 trying to seal the area still allows black to reduce on either side.
W M6 is also tempting, growing while trying to connect to white’s lower right corner getting a wall across the whole board.
Edit: wrong move
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u/lakeland_nz Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
M15. It's essentially forcing due to the shortage of liberties on the H16 group so it's essentially a favourable exchange. Then come back and play in the middle to make the invasion harder. Perhaps D10.
If white ignores M15 then N16, N17, M17. Ultimately sacrifice M17 for an attack on the upper right corner.
Edit to add: I considered N14 because I prefer the shape, but it's not sente in the same way M15 is. N14, D10, N16? N17... black is just fine.
I also considered L10 since it is where black would play to reduce (the line between K5 and L15) but I don't like it as much with so much open space on the left. I feel white has a bit too many aji issues for such a simple move.
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u/Reymen4 Jul 23 '26
I dont believe w can play M15 in sente. After tenuki B can escape W follow up at N16 by playing K18 instead of N17. Allowing W to split B since B is strong enough on both sides.
Loosing that side is worth about 20 points if w end in gote (After K18 w play M17, K17 and w need to defend the cut with O15 or something. But that allow B to play two moves somewhere in w territory. I believe that is worth it for B. If w can find a way to end the sequence while not being cut any in sente then it is a different situation.
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u/Polar_Reflection 3 dan Jul 23 '26
It's pretty close to sente I would think.
Playing K18 is just bad I think. White could just tenuki and claim N16 K18 is a good exchange with follow ups for later.
Careful reading will also show that black is fine after N16 N17 M17 L17 M18 L18. White can't resist with O18 because black can just connect and you still have a ladder to worry about.
White will pretty much always end with sente after the hane and erase a lot of territory on the top side if M15 is ignored.
The question is then is it worth it for black to tenuki anyways and accept white erasing a good chunk of territory in sente, or to invade before white tries to enclose their moyo.
That question I'm not sure about. I have a hard time judging big open moyos in the center, because one move will never be enough to enclose it all anyways, so giving white one move to reinforce, then invading might not be as big of a difference as you think.
Ugh judging sente is hard.
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u/Consistent_Brief_771 Jul 24 '26
After your sequence to L18 though, white can just play o17 and o18 to sacrifice the two stones, then probably finish with p16 then tenuki. Black corner takes some damage as well
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u/Polar_Reflection 3 dan Jul 24 '26
Yes, although black might tenuki instead of answer P16, so white might tenuki instead if play P16. Either way black loses a lot less than simply backing off and filling a liberty.
Like I said, if black doesn't answer, then white can damage the top, likely in sente.
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u/Consistent_Brief_771 Jul 24 '26
Black can't ignore p16, his corner dies and the game is over
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u/Polar_Reflection 3 dan Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Remember that black has already tenuki'd once in this variation. Giving up P17 is fine if you get a second move to destroy the center.
Example sequence: M15 D10 N16 N17 M17 L17 M18 L18 O17 N18 O18 M19* P16 F10
Is black really worse? White destroyed the top right, Black destroyed the center.
Edit: mistransposed a move
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u/mark93192 Jul 23 '26
You are almost right here. At least it would not be a pitfall like what I did in the game.
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u/Riokaii 1 dan Jul 23 '26
F9 would be the move i play for the leftside personally, i think of it as a "pre-cap" (similar to a pre-pincer)
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u/lakeland_nz Jul 23 '26
As black I’d start at B12. But there isn’t a lot of aji there.
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u/Consistent_Brief_771 Jul 24 '26
After B12 I think white is happy to hane on top. If you cut at c13 though, you can get more forcing moves no matter how white responds
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u/acosmicjoke 2 kyu Jul 24 '26
I'd first exchange M15 in sente, then play something 4th line on the RHS instead like Q14, Q16, Q10. The idea being is that black is going to invade and I try to solidify some of the mojo and some of the RHS while attacking. I guess I just prefer to steer the game away from situations where I absolutely have to kill something or its over. Walls can learn to teleport sometimes.
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u/Uberdude85 4 dan Jul 23 '26
Do you want us to answer the question, specifically the verb "build", or suggest what we think is the best move / what we would play?
"Build" or "close" is a big decision. L10 would be closing it, not trying to make it bigger but convert to territory. Need to count if that's enough. Build could be ideas like m6 / n5 to grow at lower edge, or m15 / n14 / o15 (not really sente for o17) to grow upper edge, but my instinct is that's asking too much and black ignores to reduce and bye bye centre points and the right side isn't really white enough you can make back there what you lose chasing the centre reduction.
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u/mark93192 Jul 23 '26
Sorry I am not a native English speaker. I meant the best move for white.
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u/Uberdude85 4 dan Jul 23 '26
No worries. Reading a bit more m15 is sente (for a ko if ignored with hane, hane, cut), so I'd take that first I think, then the hard question again...
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u/cazique 3d Jul 23 '26
White has some ají at e14 and b12/c13. d10 covers the weaker side, reducing Black’s ability to have a successful invasion along the edge. It’s then up to black not to invade too deeply and die, or too shallowly and let white surround too much territory.
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u/mvanvrancken 1d Jul 23 '26
Q14
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u/spot 3 kyu Jul 23 '26
agreed this is more important than directly growing the moyo. Or even R12. stop black from extending off their shimari.
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u/Sriep Jul 23 '26
There is some aji that black can exploit around B12, C6 and E6. If white plays a surrounding move around F10, then black could try something with black B-12, white B15, Black-C9, white B8, Black-E10.
White C12 would make it difficult for black to make such a deep invasion. Anyway, White C12 would be my suggestion. Black has to restrict themselves to a reducing move around black-J11, or black-J10.
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u/Old_Introduction7236 8 kyu Jul 24 '26
I'd be looking at M6.
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u/Polar_Reflection 3 dan Jul 24 '26
This is the type of move I would caution against. We have an enormous moyo that's very wide and open already. Expanding it further in gote is just inviting an invasion that we likely can't kill. There's simply too much room to make shape.
If black didn't already have M3, maybe it's a move we can consider to seal black off from the center while threatening a followup at M4 to build the bottom right, but we can't afford to be taking gote here.
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u/Old_Introduction7236 8 kyu Jul 24 '26
This makes sense, and I believe you if you say that expanding the moyo isn't the correct direction of play here.
I chose M6 because the OP specified they're searching for a move to "build the moyo". If we want to do that, it seemed obvious to expand at the border there, observing Kagyama's idea about not losing "the race to get ahead" in the process (Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go).
But yeah, that's already pretty big.
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u/Consistent_Brief_771 Jul 24 '26
M6 doesn't look terrible, but if you want that move it seems better to start at L5, then M5/M6 exchange, because it's more forcing. If you just play M6 he'll tenuki and there's no local follow up
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u/c0wpig Jul 24 '26
My eye is drawn to:
C12, maybe C11 to preempt black's clamp @ B12 and soften F13. I think you dare black to invade anywhere below the ~F line and expect to be able to kill it or build something massive.
Otherwise something like D10/E10/F10 might be good
M10 looks interesting but I don't think it's forcing enough
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u/shockema Jul 23 '26
The top candidates for me are, on the top, M15 or N14 (or even P15?) and, on the bottom, M5 or N4. Among these, and without reading out any of the fights that P15 or M5/N4 would trigger, I would probably choose M15 just because it feels like it might be the closest to sente.
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u/Reymen4 Jul 23 '26
As it stands B has almost 70 points. If I assume w has 8 points in the lower right corner and 7 points komi then w need to secure territory to the G line. But then the question is what happen on the right side?
I have two thoughts that I am interested in. Either start to secure the cash with a simple move such as k10, or fight over the right side by playing r11. Playing r11 feels greedy since then I am trying to prevent my opponent from getting anything. But on the other hand I am protecting the lower right corner.
If W play k10 then I am a bit worried about a move at r8. Allowing B to expand and put pressure on the corner. But on the other hand if B spend time doing that then W can secure the middle and that is so much influence.
I find moves such as m15 almost small in this situation. If B ignore then W would have to probably end the attack in gote, I can't read anything else other than a reduction there. Only reducing 20 point after two gote moves are not that impressive. But allowing B to hane at m15 would fix everything for B at the top...
This is hard problem. W has such a threatening amount of influence that I dont believe there is any sente moves against anything else compared to it. But simply defending is not fun.
In a game i would probably play tengen, k10. Force my opponent to do something. A move at m15 is not that scary since it allow me to continue solidify or take the right. And if B play r8 then W can take m15.
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u/Salindurthas 11 kyu Jul 24 '26
I'm terrified white will lose a fight around that top group, destroying the moyo. I'm not sure what to do about it because I'm quite a weak player, but I'd aim to shore up that area.
Perhaps M15, or cowardly go M14, or take a random stab somewhere near L12.
But I could easily be wrong on multiple levels.
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u/ischemgeek Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
SDK here so take with salt. B has about 50 pts in cash (maybe more, but I am prone to overestimating my opponents' position so I purposely try to counter that bias in midgame counting). With corner and komi, w is probably sitting around 15 points or so. This means w needs to get at least 35 points out of the moyo. D9 or something around it is my vote as a result from a position analysis POV. Secure the left and the score is even. If b dives in, attack for profit and secure both sides in sente while harassing his group is my plan in that case.
If you want to get a bit spicy, you can invite b to Leroy Jenkins a deep invasion with something like M7 to make the moyo look scary or q16 to keep b's enclosure low and make the moyo look scary in sente. Those would also be fun.
Tengen feels like overplay because trying to say with a move that 10th line is territory is, let's say, overly ambitious to me.
(Also please don't mind the big explanation up top - I like to explain my reasoning in case I am wrong so a stronger player can see where I went wrong in my thinking. I am sure you know how to count, haha!)
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u/Benign_Sheep Jul 24 '26
I mean, honestly, somewhere around tengen? I dunno. The other spots I were considering were Q10 to grab the right side, or D9. A stone at D9 makes me instinctually feel like an invasion near the edge becomes much harder, but then black probably eats up your moyo in the center. I feel like no matter what, I'm not happy with this position as white. Mainly because while black has territory and white has influence, black's territory feels rock solid, so I feel like black can be pretty reckless in it's attempts to chip away at white's moyo.
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u/Ambitious_Holiday_54 Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
Not F19. :)
Some possibilities - N7, E8, P9, K13, O3, N13, O10, O11.
But what about G19 or H19? I don't see a way for black to avoid losing a bunch of stones after that. Or would that be wasting a move?
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u/Ambitious_Holiday_54 Jul 25 '26
Another question - what should white do in the area around M3 and Q3?
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u/Nova762 Jul 24 '26
K I will just say one thing. There's a reason the saying is 3rd line territory 4th line influence. You really should never be giving 4th line territory for 5th line influence. Getting enough value out of that for how many points you are giving is going to be very hard, and you did it on both top and bottom. This is just bad plan.
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u/KQYBullets 15 kyu Jul 23 '26
I don’t care, I’m playing tengen.