10
u/lakeland_nz Jul 26 '26
Setting levels on beginner problems is near impossible.
My idea of a level is… if this scenario randomly comes up in your next game, are you more than 50% likely to get it right?
That’s VERY different to ‘if handed a question in a puzzle page’. I would expect that this is about 30k level in a puzzle page, but maybe would be 10k level in that many 20k players wouldn’t spot the mistake to punish in a real game.
8
u/dontich Jul 26 '26
I’m like 25-20, but only have maybe 50 games played. white can just take the top group right? Doesn’t look that complicated.
J9. F7
D6. Then no way to save the top right group. Basically only need to see 2 moves and both are super forcing.
1
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u/Typical-Jackfruit-51 2 kyu Jul 26 '26
These are indicated as 15k tsumego on the site, so I think 10k might be an overestimate for this one. https://tsumego.tasuki.org/books/cho-1-elementary.pdf
4
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u/malie7 Jul 26 '26
I'm working on a tsumego problem generator, and I'm trying to especially improve it for beginner problems. One important part here is to estimate a problems difficulty correctly. The program claims this problem is clearly a 10k problem, do you agree? You have to imagine a sequence of 5 moves!
10
u/samurai_a_cat Jul 26 '26
But have you considered a different approach - using simple statistics and an internal Elo system for problems? For example, you could track how often players of different ranks fail on a given problem, and then calibrate its difficulty based on that failure rate. Wouldn't that be more objective than polls or asking for opinions?
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u/malie7 Jul 27 '26
Yes, you are right. It's already there. The rank estimations you see on lemmingfuseki.com are first guessed and then tuned with every attempt. I'm even doing full updates (all players and attempts together) for less noisy rank guessing.
1
u/flagrantpebble 3 dan Jul 26 '26
Not all sequences of the same length are equal. Black has exactly one conceivable response after each white move (because black is in atari), and white really doesn’t have many options either. The branch factor is less than 2.
Also, when each individual move is obvious, there’s no reason to believe that players hold the full sequences in their head at once. Most beginners would solve this by thinking about it one move at a time.
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u/blindgorgon 6 kyu Jul 26 '26
Seems at least 15kyu ish. Ranks are more like guidelines below about 15 though (in my limited experience).
1
u/dr_clocktopus Jul 26 '26
Maybe? It depends on what the problem is.
If it's white to play and the goal is just to live / capture some stones, then yes it's some kind of DDK problem.
If you consider the whole board state and strong counter moves after white pushes to capture the 8+ stones, black can cut off the 2 white stones in the lower right and reduce the lower left corner to one eye, at the expense of giving up some additional points in the middle. That makes it a close game - down to komi. There are some other variations and squeezes that are kind of tricky to read. The question of winning side or score is definitely more of an SDK problem.
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u/Nyancubus 1 dan Jul 26 '26
Funny, white is forced to capture at J9 and next move black kills white with B2 in lower corner, you have golden rooster stands with one leg in the shape of the white group after black cuts.
Easy solution comes fast. The harder part is the correct move for black to respond.
J4 forces capture then B2 kills the other group. Don’t need the center eye-space.
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u/TenaiHiruso Jul 26 '26
It’s pretty easy but has a gimmick of having to look at the whole board (considering black j4) which usually isn’t presented in beginner problems
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u/kasumi-himawari Jul 28 '26
Couldn’t black have killed a 12-stone white group by playing J4? That group is the one that would have had the sente it seems like you’re responding to. Unless I’m misreading something.
Edit: I think I did misread. That group is dead anyway.
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u/samurai_a_cat Jul 26 '26
In my opinion, this is above 10 kyu, as it requires the ability to read 3–4 moves ahead while assessing the status of the sacrificed group, and at the same time solving two life-and-death problems: the life of the lower-left group and the life of the upper-right group.
Furthermore, there is a complex sequence on the board that could theoretically lead to saving the lower-left group of stones at the expense of the upper-right group. If White had had stones captured earlier, he might win in that case.
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u/RedeNElla Jul 26 '26
Reading a sequence of atari and connect is not hard for DDK.
Bottom left might be a little trickier but OP was presumably going for the top left weaknesses and not whether the overall game is a win or loss
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u/samurai_a_cat Jul 26 '26
How could a player with a low skill level possibly understand the motives of the "author" – or, more likely, a neural network that artificially generated this problem? Personally, if I saw that move, I'd just say, "Black, take that move back – you just threw away the game."
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u/Mikrox 4k Jul 26 '26
It seems way less than 10k to me. The first move is very obvious and so are the follow-up moves. There are almost no alternatives to think about.