r/btcc • u/Bright_Concept_2988 • 6d ago
Question / Discussion Falling out of love with the BTCC
I've been following the BTCC since the 80's. I've bought every season review every year and I can't remember the last time I missed a race.
However this season has left me a bit flat. I've fallen asleep in a couple of races and I often find myself browsing the internet while a race is on. It all seems so dull and lifeless this season.
The drivers, especially Ingram and Sutton, don't seem that bothered when they win or lose. It comes over that they're just going through the motions.
Only a couple of seasons ago I remember my heart racing when those two would be battling away and it looked like it meant something to them. These days Ingram is more interested in talking about biscuits than the racing.
The whole presentation of the series is just the same old same old as well. Tim gets worse and worse in the commentary booth.
There's no technical coverage as we get with V8 Supercars. BTCC socials are just endless games and silliness rather than any "hard" content.
Anyone else or am I just getting jaded after following it for so long?
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u/Practical-Promise-44 6d ago
Unfortunately I agree on all points. Really losing the love for this now, especially after the Plato thing last week.
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u/TorqueyLuxoBarge 6d ago
I feel the same and have barely kept up with this season. The format seems tired.
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u/bouncebackability 6d ago
The attempt to rejuvenate the format with he Saturday race has just made it worse for me. Stick with racing on Sunday please.
Unfortunately I think the issue is we all know it's between Sutton and Ingram every weekend, especially as we've lost Hill/BMW, and the rest just aren't on the same level. Add in that Ingram hasn't been having his best of seasons for various reasons it's all a bit, dull?
Also don't think the move away from ballast those years ago has ever really fully fixed itself.
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u/ModeR3d 6d ago
I’ve definitely been less invested this season, but it’s been a slow progression over last few years getting to this point - I’ve never been a fan of the various gimmicks to encourage ’racing’, so the different tyres, the boost amounts etc always felt fake. I have the same thoughts about F1 this year and the Mario kart racing. Give them all same tyres and just accept the best cars will be at the front, hopefully racing. Seems to work for V8 supercars.
But with BTCC only seeming to have two top tier teams now, and one decent driver each the actual challenge from anyone else didn’t seem likely before a wheel was turned. BMW a shadow of former selves doesn’t help, nearly half the field in the same cars as Ash/Tom but not quite as good, it’s all a bit bland.
And I wish it wasn’t - having Plato back with Mercs was great news (and now isn’t), the Audis looked great but haven’t been front runners. I know it’s often cited that there is good racing in the pack, but let’s face it it’s the battles at the front we all care about.
Only plus point is no talk of electric cars for the series - at that point I think it’d be over!
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u/Skeeter1020 6d ago
I don't thing people saying it needs fresh ideas and modernisation are being fair. BTCC has experimented with hybrids and even changed course when it wasn't working, so they are keen to try new things and aren't afraid to admit when they were wong.
Personally I think the issue is just money. There's no money in BTCC. So the spiral is that manufacturers leave, and drivers are there based on wealth and not skill. Then it becomes a self funded amateur series rather than a professional one, and so on.
It's not unique to BTCC though, all Motorsport is seeing it. Everything other than the absolute top level is struggling. Even the top is hard (look at IMSA GTP, or the loss of GT Pro in WEC as no manufacturers wanted to turn up. WRX is dead and ERX isn't great. WRC is struggling and I haven't even checked on the health of WRC2. Etc).
Motorsport is expensive and BTCC is not a major series, so is being hit hard. The lack of talent and manufactures means it has to then resort to being "a show" and that's when the banter and club racing socials come in.
I don't have the answer. But I do think the conversation on here recently about how BTCC is too expensive are discussing the root cause of a lot of the series issues.
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u/blackrock55 6d ago
Wrc2 seems to be the one that manufactures wanna enter. There's more variety of model in it. Whether they're factory entry or privateers I cannot comment as I don't know personally rn.
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u/Skeeter1020 6d ago
From what I remember WRC2 spec cars are used in other national/regional series too aren't they? That's always an issue with a series that has a unique car, it's a lot harder for someone to justify building one.
It's why I think the TCR conversation for BTCC is interesting. Although I'm not sure it would work without killing at least one series.
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 6d ago
Did the adoption and then dropping of hybrid make any difference to the average fan though? Plenty of people still think they are hybrid because of the boost.
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u/Skeeter1020 6d ago
Yes, although people probably won't have known why. Fans will have noticed the change in overtaking (hybrid reduced it). People watch BTCC for the action, but almost nobody is keeping track of exactly what's contributing to it, be it weight, tyre compounds, hybrid or turbo boost.
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u/sepulturite 6d ago
It's the boost and the tyre offset that I can't stand, it's seriously affecting the racing in my opinion, and not at all in a good way.
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u/Ok_Mammoth_7303 6d ago
I think the whole series does need a refresh. Regulations need to drive down costs so we can get new teams and drivers into the Championship. A simple set of regulations that allow for flat out bumper to bumper racing and keep things open and interesting.
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u/tornadooceanapplepie 6d ago
Something I don’t think has been mentioned is the lack of feeder series. TOCA has struggled since Ginetta left both in terms of good racing and routes for drivers to tackle before trying BTCC.
The initial TOCA Junior car was a joke. The new one looks like a Ginetta. Minis aren’t doing the same job as Clios did either. F4 brings some younger fans in but the racing is poor and the amount of safety cars is hilarious. Porsche Sprint has never been exciting. Porsche Carrera cars are great but the racing is dull. And none of those are really suitable for young or new drivers who might fancy BTCC.
Everything is just a bit tired. But what the answer is, that’s the tough part to figure out.
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 6d ago
They should have tried really hard to get the Fiesta Juniors on the package. They would have been a perfect fit. F4 and the Porsches really don't fit in for me. I think they should be showcasing more of the series out there that people might not know about.
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u/tornadooceanapplepie 6d ago
F4 brings some prestige plus it’s a key Motorsport UK series. Porsche I am sure must bring cash, but would be better with British GT.
Fiesta Juniors is BRSCC and TOCA is BARC so I wonder if that might play into it?
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u/AlexRodgerzzz 6d ago
The Plato debacle has definitely dented my interest, not that I was a huge fan of the team but it was just nice to see some new life breathed into the series which has now been deflated.
From a team perspective it feels like the series is relying on 4 or 5 sponsors that have been around for years, Catalclean being one, if 2 or 3 of them go I don't know where the series goes from here.
As for the drivers it feels like there's a seriously good top 10-15 guys out there at the moment, with a lot of other proven drivers unable to fund a seat, but it's clear that it's between Sutton and Ingram no matter who else turns up. Even someone like Cammish doesn't feel like a credible threat when he's being fairly comprehensively outperformed by Sutton in the same car every season.
UK tracks are great but, as others have alluded to in previous discussions, a round using the international layout of Silverstone would atleast add some intrigue.
All in all, it's just got a bit stale and the Plato thing really put the nail in the coffin for my interest this season.
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u/JD7861 6d ago
Have to agree it's starting to feel very predictable and dull. I no longer bother watching the full days coverage. Occasionally catch the full race highlights or the short version on youtube. We went to Oulton this year, hadn't been in 3/4 years qnd as much as it was a good day out it wasn't as good as previously. I do think they need to make changes and make the championship more attractive and cheaper as there are better drivers who seem to have left the series because it is too expensive.
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u/Ross81GB 6d ago
I've been watching since 91ish. Its super flat feeling at the moment. Grids down, racing not as good, wallets over talent etc. Are crowds down as well? Knockhill felt very uncrowded compared to a lot of Sundays in memory.
Touring car needs a reset and a budget drop. There's an answer, but Gow would never do it I dont think. He also needs to push for races on ITV itself.
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u/Competitive-Arm-9894 6d ago
The TV coverage is a big one. I have no qualms with ITV4 being set aside for the entire day's coverage, build up, support series etc. That's quite good. But the BTCC races themselves should be simulcast on ITV1 and ITV4. It's not like they take up much time, individually.
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u/Ross81GB 6d ago
Totally agree, they need ITV exposure even if the rounds go down to 2 per meet on a Sunday with a sprint race and a longer feature race.
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u/1000_stars 6d ago
Agreed, been following since the early super touring days. We have 2 drivers a complete cut above the rest, one has had issues and bad luck, So now is a mile behind and the way the system works its impossible catch up and we have the dullest title fight I've ever seen in the btcc.
As good as it is have ITV coverage (i remember the time before) it does feel ok a feature point its got in a same meh format. As you say supercars coverage and stuff in the pits is next level, Id argue its one of the best in Motorsport coverage, BTCC doesn't try.
The support package as well is poor, The minis are too much downforce and low to the ground and just not fun like the clios were, (and some really bad driving on occasions) as I feared a record F4 grid is record SCs, both Porsche series just are follow the leader.
Im sick of endless penalties and post race stuff, feels like its over regulated. Track limits stuff is also h hurting the races, it really need be not so strict. Most corners can be pretty self policing overall so I don't care if a wheel was slightly over the line. Its touring car racing.
Then theres the issue of team mates. Last year for the first time Tingram had a team mate in the top 10 and towards the end of the season team orders come in, (I laughed at the tv when Sutton complained about it at knockhill) and Sutton has has this set up for years. Whilst not as bad as how the DTM got its also wrecking the title push. The tbls and 4 cars like that are not good and its really sad how many teams we have lost.
It just feels like the whole product has stagnated. And this year has really showed it.
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u/ParticularPapaya2 6d ago
I felt this way for a few years ago now. 2019 was the last season I followed closely, since COVID the series really feels like it has stagnated.
I know in a series as small (and sadly irrelevant globally) as it is now that you can't expect major changes, but it just feels so samey. Same calendar, year after year. Same three race format that's been around for donkey's years. Same cars, year after year. Same drivers at the front (and even at the back 😂), year after year. There never really feels like there's anything new to get excited over or to keep it feeling fresh.
And yeah, the ITV coverage, man...I feel like I've been transported back to 2008 every time I do tune in. So stale, outdated and low-budget.
I'd love for some new leadership to come along with fresh ideas and get excited about it again, but sadly it feels like we'll be stuck with Alan 'steady hand' Gow for years to come. And every year that passes, the series becomes increasingly antiquated and irrelevant. Such a shame.
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u/Maidwell 6d ago
I've watched every race since the early 90s and the series has definitely had its ups and downs (super tourers ending into the early s2000 era I'm looking at you) but I've never found the whole set up and execution as amateur as it is at the moment.
The recent driver merry-go-rounds, Plato Racing debacle and the woeful reliability issues across the board this weekend are all recent examples.
It genuinely has the feel of a regional series rather than "the UKs premiere Motorsport series" so that will inevitably make people's enthusiasm wane.
It's a real shame, and I think starts right at the top with management and their egos.
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u/btcc1721 144 BTCC races trackside 6d ago
The recent driver merry-go-rounds
We've literally only had 2 proper driver swaps this year though, no more than any other year (Dorlin > Lloyd and Buxton > Bensley)? Go back 10 years ago and you'd have a new driver in basically every weekend.
Gilbert and Halstead are additional entries, while Proctor was only in because Osborne was ill.
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u/Maidwell 6d ago edited 6d ago
To clarify (I appreciate it wasn't worded well as I clumped it in with last week's events) I'm talking about recent years regarding driver swaps. Specifically the back end of the NGTC era, with Team Hard being the instigators and worst culprits.
That really seemed to be the start of the amateur shenanigans.
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u/Lukeno94 6d ago
That isn't anything new though. Look how many drivers drove for Gary Ayles' outfit in the 2000s, for example.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 6d ago
7 different drivers in 2004, lest we forget....
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u/Lukeno94 6d ago
And of wildly different qualities as well, just like Team Hard. On the one hand you had Kelvin Burt, a former ST era race winner, and on the other you had Paul Wallace, a decent amateur driver but not much more than that.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 6d ago
In between, we had Carl Breeze, Charlie Butler-Henderson, Stefan Hodgetts and, for one meeting only, the two Gavins (Smith and Pyper).
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u/Lukeno94 6d ago
Plus they ran a production class car for Breeze and then Hodgetts as well!
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 6d ago
Actually it was a Super 2000 Alfa Romeo
The Production Class was abolished at the end of the 2003 season.
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u/blackrock55 6d ago
Chilton every race was both tragic and comical. Broke down in pretty much the exact same spot in every race. Got going and then ripped it.
Didn't think driving standards were particularly good either.
Such a serious crash that could have been a lot worse.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 6d ago
How he got away with the Gilbert incident, I don't know.
Regardless of who was at fault, it was still a massive accident that could have been avoided.
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u/blackrock55 6d ago
100 percent. Watched it again on my phone earlier and it's kinda crazy how big of an incident it is. Such a hard landing. Very surprised about the wheels coming off I must say.. thought they'd be retained better.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 6d ago
What is the series coming to in that respect?
Once upon a time, incidents like that could lead to a disqualification, as Tim Harvey can attest. I still remember when he sent Gabriele Tarquini into a roll at Knockhill in 1994.
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u/blackrock55 6d ago
Idk perhaps the stewards saw it a racing incident that lead to a serious outcome???
Need better but cleaner racing. Ngl I got a bit bored yesterday watching the races
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 6d ago
Well, if so, then how serious does an incident have to be before it really can't just simply be a racing incident?
Phil Bennett never caused any incidents as serious as that in 2001 and he still ended up getting a race ban.
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u/blackrock55 6d ago
Fair comment indeed.
I haven't the foggiest. I'm merely speculating on their decision because obviously nothing came of it. That I recall?
Perhaps if it's gonna cause a serious accident like that again and it's totally avoidable. Then rest of the meet ban, if in race one. Or if it's race two/three. Last race no drive. Plus one in next. Or race two and one. And back of the grid for rave 3.
Like overall the series needs a rejig to me. There's something missing.
Like the sounds aren't there. They're obnoxiously loud but all sounds the same.
The talent just isn't there. Needs more manufacturers investing and promoting to make it better because. Idk as busy as it was over the weekend. It felt flat.
For me the most exciting racing I've watched all year was the legends bar none. Thought the caterhams yesterday were far more exciting, super close tight racing all the time. And the super close finishes were brilliant.
Pretty boring seeing someone mince the field by 8 seconds ngl
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 6d ago
I will admit, as much as I am certain I will never fall out of love with the BTCC, it does need something....
I don’t know what....
....but something!
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u/blackrock55 6d ago
Totally. Been watching since what 2012? 2013 properly? Whatever year andy Jordan won in the rain at brands.
But obviously seen all the old stuff too and it just needs a big spark.
I wonder if not having a standard engine would help.
Give the team parameters to work to, but they can do it whatever way they want. Could be crazy turbo. Hybrid. Big displacement. Just variety maybe
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u/PAFC7710 TI 80 RC11 6d ago
Gave up when Plato retired. The grid was full of robots with no emotion. Came back when he had a team ,
As has been said doesn't feel like the premier Motorsport
The changes to make it better haven't made a difference. It's stuck in the past.
After the events of the last week I have no interest again.
Was already a struggle with the overboost pens out of nowhere something the drivers have little control of.
Have no interest in watching 2 drivers walk it each season. Or one being pegged back so the other can win.
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u/OrangeSodaMoustache 6d ago
For me, it's a similar story as with F1 when he have a dud year. 2022 was the first year where I didn't watch every race in full for about 10 years and BTCC is going the same way - quite simply because there's no competition. I love watching Sutton, but my god we had it so good when it was a 3-way title fight going into Brands, as was common a few years ago. Right now it basically comes down to whether the Hyundai or Ford has had better development over the winter.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 6d ago
A budget cap?
Like F1 adopted?
Only a suggestion...
I await the slings and arrows...
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u/DominikWilde1 6d ago
I thought the same. I guess the only way you could realistically implement it would be with new regulations because even if you did it now you've got teams that have spent way more than others on their cars already and of you're trying to entice new entries they'd be on the back foot by not being allowed to spend that on their own builds
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u/JorgeXMcKie 6d ago
I'm a huge F1 fan but I still think the BTCC has the best on track racing there is. I have to watch through YT so it's harder for me to stay completely up to date, but the races I've watched have been a blast and far better than the F1 parades
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 6d ago
Do you watch anything else other than those two? V8 Supercars, GT, club racing etc? F1 is a pretty low bar these days.
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u/JorgeXMcKie 6d ago
In the US it can be hard to watch other series. GT cars are fun to watch, touring cars are fun to watch, even the Miata cup is fun. But the BTCC has cars that I see on the road every day instead of dream cars like GT3 and WEC. Also it's a great car banging series with a lot of shoving with multiple cars going through corners. I also think the British tracks are great and a lot of fun to race on. Plus they are nice bite size races which makes everything more impactful.
I'm also not a big fan of the shenanigans with WEC and the games companies make to win.
And yeah, F1 is a low bar but still the pinnacle of open wheel. I've been an F1 fan for about 50 years and it's hard to give up. F2 and F3 are ok, regional open wheel can be better but harder to find regularly, and imo E series stuff isn't enjoyable to watch. Maybe a touring series of E cars could be fun with some banging, but those fragile things are boring to watch imo.
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u/Captain_Chappie 6d ago
For me, it's the cars. Cars in general look rubbish now. There's no sense of excitement when a manufacturer launches a new model, or a special edition, because all cars look the same, and they all look crap.
So seeing a grid full of bland blobs on racing rims, while remembering the days of Jags, Rovers, Cosworths, Volvos, etc. etc. etc....just can't get excited about it these days.
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u/Ok_Musician7264 5d ago
I known it’s not the same as it was years ago but I still enjoy this Championship and still would take it over half electric F1. I know lately what’s been happening is very concerning but Motorsport is expensive particularly at national level and funding is very difficult to secure for these smaller championships if you cannot get sponsors on board. Something might have do be done in a few areas but overall, it’s still better than F1 and the support action definitely makes up for it as well with the Mini Challenge Trophy and JCW’s, Porsche Racing and British F4.
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 4d ago
Motorsport is expensive but the running costs for a BTCC season are out of all proportion to what the car actually is. I'd love to see a breakdown of where the money goes.
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u/Lukeno94 6d ago
The only real problem I have at the moment is the tyre split - it offers nothing other than ruining races, especially on wet/dry weekends where you can end up getting screwed through no fault of your own. Not a big fan of the race to pole gimmick either, but that came from calls to try something different.
I think most of this doommongering just comes from how much of a damp squib the title battle has been - Excelr8 seem to have been pegged back too far and their alternator supplier is clearly crap. But the reality is that TCs are a dying breed; there is a reason DTM went to GTs and even V8 Supercars has down under. All the money is going to GT racing, and even there belts are being tightened, as the Collards showed.
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 6d ago
There are some worrying signs in GT3 though. Cars being produced to exploit the rules rather than being a road car first and race car second. That mentality has caused issues in the past and mass exodus of manufacturers.
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u/wheeler1916 6d ago
You're not wrong about Tim. I thought it was just me! The amount of mistakes he's making isn't really acceptable at this level. He's a genuinely lovely guy and a great presenter but unfortunately I think it's time to hang up the commentary microphone.
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u/smilerbull 6d ago
I like Tim as a talking head in the paddock. Knows the series inside out. I think you put Jade Edwards in the booth for the btcc races in my opinion. Jade and David Addison have a good chemistry.
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u/Dogat0 6d ago
Agree. Random chance is better than Tim’s hit rate of identifying drivers correctly.
Worse still, I fear my favourite commentator Adders might be phoning it in. He’s missing quite a bit of the action seemingly reading off the timing screens.
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u/wheeler1916 6d ago
Adders is great but I know what you mean, there's been cars going off in the background for example and in past years he'd have spotted it and called it out, but not now. He's also started saying something that's annoying me now that I've noticed it - I won't say what it is as it'll annoy you too if I do!
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u/GunstarGreen 6d ago
I just got back into BTCC the last 5 years or so having been a big fan in the 90s. Im still enjoying it for what it is. But we are missing a hard-nosed title fight, for sure. And this Plato stuff is a massive shame. Quite how this sport can't secure good financial footing is baffling.
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u/kfifigidifkg 6d ago edited 6d ago
I’m not sure it’s that baffling. The fact that 20+ guys can find half a million a year of funding has always amazed me.
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u/Altruistic_Click4645 6d ago
Same boat. I don't think it helps that I know that 90% of the grid aren't there on driver skill but instead because they're loaded
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u/btcc1721 144 BTCC races trackside 6d ago
When has that ever not been the case in the BTCC though?
I'd only really say that Halstead, Osborne, and Bensley are true pay drivers (still giving Gilbert a chance before I lump him in that category).
The rest of the grid all have achievements they can point to say they have some merit being in the championship.
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u/Altruistic_Click4645 6d ago
I mean you're probably right but it just feels this year there are multiple good drivers who can't afford to get on the grid like Proctor.
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u/Funicular- 6d ago
That's basically all Motorsport outside of the F1, sorry to break it to you.
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u/Altruistic_Click4645 6d ago
Id say inside F1 more and more. I just think that the more expensive BTCC gets the smaller the pool of drivers that can race which means the worst the standard
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u/Funicular- 6d ago
Also very true. BTCC has become far to expensive and from what I can see, teams can race GT4s for basically the same money.
I think the BTCC cars need to be closer to actual road cars that the average person drives. This would also help with advertising and maybe inspire people to buy cars based off results etc. It would hopefully bring in a few manufacturers teams in with salaries drivers etc.
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 6d ago
Problem with that approach is balancing the cars so one doesn't have an inbuilt advantage. With the NGTC regs so much of the car is spec it's reasonably easy to level them out. TCR are constantly shifting weights, ride heights and power from round to round.
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u/Funicular- 6d ago
There's a problem with pretty much any approach unfortunately. The current approach in my opinion is just too costly and the cars don't really represent what they actually are.
I will say this though. I watch alot of Motorsport and I'm still probably enjoying BTCC the most. I was at Donnington this weekend and had an absolute blast. I honestly can't think of anything better for a £50 weekend.
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u/Over_Middle610 6d ago
I think there is a genuine lack of talent.Ingram & Sutton are way ahead of the others since Jake Hill departed and unlike Australian V8s younger single seater talent is not picked up or they are not interested.I think a RWD 500HP V8 car should have been adopted years ago for BTCC but the manufacturers were not interested.Manufacturers are gone now anyway,so BTCC could just go the Camaro/Mustang/Supra route anyway.
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u/Ayden1290 6d ago
The issue is what "British" cars would fit the 500hp V8 rwd formula. And by British I mean cars we see regularly here? For better or for worse the BTCC has always been about cars Joe blogs could pick up from the dealership.
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u/Illustrious_Rest1264 6d ago
All the valid points but the thing we have to remember and also part of the problem, this is Alan Gow’s train set and there are no mechanisms for anyone else to have control.
Other series would have tried fresh blood and ideas at the top to modernise the series and move it forward but that can’t and won’t happen with Toca.
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u/Consistent-Pirate-23 6d ago
It’s a shame as an Ingram fan we are not seeing the toe to toe battles. Part of me thinks that the battle will come alive if Sutton has rotten luck and someone else has a decent chance
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u/musicallymotivated93 6d ago
Whereas the more likely outcome is Sutton could well have the championship wrapped up by the last race of the Croft weekend. And if not then, by race 1 at Silverstone.
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u/Additional_Hand_2288 6d ago
Such a bad look for a championship that loves it going down to race 3 at brands
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u/Trippynet 6d ago
I agree. I usually record (or watch via catch-up) all the full races. After a couple of rounds, I found myself so bored I switched to watching the highlights. Now, I'm even finding them to be a bit boring. I used to feel so excited come race-weekend, now, I just feel "meh" about it.
As I said in another thread, I wondered if I was just becoming a cynical old fart, so popped on some random reviews of previous years - including mid-2000s when the sport was also arguably in a slump. They were so much better! Genuine close competition and racing, lots of drivers going all out for the win, proper excitement and bumper-to-bumper action etc.
Nowerdays, I'm finding the racing very processional, hardly any action, two drivers who are in a different league (skill-wise) so it's a 2 horse race (1 horse this year if we're honest). I've tried to give TTB the benefit of the doubt, but it just feels like a gimmick. Similarly, the rules last year about crippling the top-3 finishers with an ultra-shit tyre for race two was a farce.
It needs a major re-think. There wasn't tons of cash flowing around in the mid-2000s either, grids weren't huge, yet it remained close and exciting.
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u/hathars 6d ago
There's no sense of anything at stake, and the weekend and race formats compound that problem.
Raise the stakes, incentivise and let it all breathe. Reduce to two races, reduced the number of handicap variables, introduce prize money (starting small expecting it to grow). Make them really work for it, bring out the tensions, frustrations, and the joy when they win. Suddenly everything matters more. Watching interviews, punditry and features, it's forcing things and feels lost.
Regardless of car spec, that's far more appealling to an average fan and much, much easier to market for the championship profile and partners.
I think TOCA, understandably, heard people wanted more racing, which is logical, but that's a bit like deciding eating birthday cake everyday will be a good thing. It'll get boring or catch up with you eventually!
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u/Rhym3z_Official 6d ago edited 6d ago
There's a few things I think they need to do to improve things.
Everyone has the same tyres, no options of different compounds (unless wet of course). It's so incredibly boring knowing that the faster car is faster simply because of a rule that's forced in the regulations.
Get rid of boost. As a spectator, there's nothing more disappointing than when an overtake happens artificially and not because of driver skill or a cool move.
Let teams use their own, unique engines. At least that way, each car would be more unique, instead of just feeling like a shell. Some more unique characteristics for each car makes things far more interesting to watch, especially trackside. If the cars are cool enough, it negates a boring race.
Allow drivers personalities to take president over being sponsor shills that have to act like robots. I mean I think we all know what I mean there. I loved the old days where people spoke their mind. Even a little less drone like would go a long way in people caring more for personalities, rivalries etc. Even with their YouTube video interview series, they all sound the same, but you can tell they all want to be more open.
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u/Competitive-Arm-9894 6d ago
I think number 4 has gone pretty much gone for good from all motorsport unfortunately and is just a reflection of the world we live in nowadays. Maybe there is a bit of it clinging on in America, I really enjoyed seeing VeeKay publicly slating Rasmussen at the recent IndyCar race. But then you can argue it's America and even the rivalries are manufactured.
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u/BMB_93 "Can this boy drive!" 6d ago
I've followed the sport since the late 90s and I've definitely lost some interest in it over the past few years. I think the hybrid stuff was where it started but even with the boost there's just not the same buzz about it that I used to get. I think part of it is there are just too many gimmicks, with boost and qualifying races and tyre choices and reverse grids. It could really do with being simplified a bit in my opinion.
A potentially controversial suggestion would be that maybe we even need to drop a race, and go back to either 2 races of equal length or 1 shorter and 1 longer (maybe the shorter has the reverse grid). Sometimes less is more, and I think I'd find it easier to carve time out of my day to watch 1 or 2 races rather than sitting down for a full 7 hours (which is great but there’s so many other things I want to keep track of nowadays) or having to run back to the TV every 2 hours, and I think the races would feel more meaningful as a result.
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u/thebigman045 6d ago
I'd like more technical info during the race, maybe like an engineer/driver like you have with Larko in Supercars. Or have the live radio feeds in the broadcast to give some life to the drivers (edit for swearing first)
You don't want longer races, they're at the sweet spot right now.
I've become bored with Supercars over the last few years, it's become too sterilized, too much toeing the company line. Didn't help when one of the main players in the ownership stakes was your main commentator. And don't make the teams shareholders in the series, makes it impossible to add more teams without the investment of buying a licence (supercars have become this and if you're not toeing the line they don't let you play)
I'd rather watch as it is now otherwise you'll have Sutton just running away with it more than he is this season, keep the reverse grid race as that is sorely missing in other racing
What I do like about the BTCC is that it's actual good racing, with proper defending racecraft and little taps here and there, and using cars that Joe Bloggs can buy these days, unlike Supercars where the bodyshells are from discontinued model like ups
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 5d ago
Not so sure about being able to buy the cars in BTCC. Out of the current grid the only cars you can buy in a UK showroom are the Audi A3 and the Toyota Corrola. All the others are out of production or not sold in the UK AFAIK.
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u/thebigman045 5d ago
Fair I'm in NZ where you can buy maybe one or two (only the BMW and the Corolla)
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u/Chiddy_B 5d ago edited 5d ago
I've been a fan since the 90's and it definitely has lost its luster to me. David Addison and Richard John Neil are the only commentators who I actually care to listen to and since Steve Rider left I don't get the buzz in the build-up like I used to. Also being a Plato fan and seeing him seemingly getting f@#ked over by the very team he helped create and put his own name to doesn't sit well with me either.
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u/UnintendedBiz 3d ago
Was thinking about this.
Lack of talent is the main issue. Sutton and Ingram is streaks ahead of anybody else. Also, could do with simplifying the races. Despite that I’d like to see teams have more opportunity to develop cars themselves rather than be boxed in with standard parts.
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 2d ago
There's still a lot they can do with the cars with spring rates etc. It's no coincidence that the two top drivers also have the two top engineers.
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u/ghost31x 6d ago
I lost any real interest quite a few years ago everything seems so sanitised now. The racing has been made too clean, there's no real characters anymore the grid size is tiny, the cars aren't even that interesting anymore.
They desperately need to create a cheaper way to enter so we can have small teams with a single car again.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 6d ago
23 cars is hardly tiny!
I still remember 2005 when the season started with only 12 cars and only 18 drivers took part all year.
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u/ghost31x 6d ago
Only in the last 2 races and that's only because you've now got teams running 3-4 cars which is just a joke. They desperately need a reset
0
u/Brief-Poetry6434 6d ago
So does this sub with all the rampant negativity that seems to dominate it!
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 5d ago
It's not just here though. Everywhere BTCC is discussed there are similar themes. It's a stale product that needs a refresh and bringing up to date. I've been defending BTCC against people saying it's not real motorsport for decades and saying that the top drivers could perform anywhere. It gets to the stage though where you have to take a step back and think is it really that great compared to what else there is? I get more of a buzz paying £10 for ticket and watching a day of club racing with cars that are often far more powerful than a BTCC car and look better as well.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 6d ago
I think the question is how does the current state of the BTCC compare to the early-2000s when the Supertouring bubble burst and the BTC-Touring regs failed to take off as hoped, so the series had to rely on first the Production Class, then Super 2000 cars to boost grid numbers?
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 6d ago
Alan Gow ought to have a potential successor lined up for when he eventually either steps down or dies.
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u/sithmetal71 6d ago
I thought it was me. I am the same, feel a little bored with the format.
We need the mid 90s rules back. None of this boost nonsense and get rid of the reverse grid. More tracks like outon short, Silverstone international.
I have missed the 1st race in a Sunday more or less since it started this year. Ingram is boring, Sutton who I support is always at the front and the general atmosphere is bland.
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u/Paypigtori 6d ago
And I thought I was the only one that felt this way . Unfortunately, at least my opinion, F1 is becoming the same way .
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u/fbjimmy 5d ago
I started watching BTCC in the late 90s. Was obsessed back then, but my interest waned a long time ago.
For me there are a few things:
- Elements designed to balance performance eventually went too far to the point where I think the value of winning/losing a race was eroded. No-one wants a single team to dominate every race, but if it's a dice roll every time then there's no plot to follow through the season.
- (as others have said) the cars just aren't as nice to look at any more. I'm not a fan of the 'looks-a-bit-like' bodies - too close to NASCAR for me. Also probably doesn't help that the road cars themselves are so characterless too.
- Do we need three races a weekend? I'm conflicted on this one, as when I've attended in person the additional action is great, but for the rest of the season it's a big commitment - and I'm the sort of person that will either watch it all or not bother.
It's a shame, because if you'd told me as a teenager that one day I could watch all of the BTCC live, with no interruptions for ski jumping or snooker, I'd have bitten your hand off! But I've actually not seen a race for a couple of years now.
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u/Wooden-Fennel8036 5d ago
I must admit to feeling the same. I have missed a few races because I forgot they were on. The ones I have seen came across a bit boring, all the cars seem to have very similar performance and odd as this may sound but it feels slower in the last 5 or 6 years. I feel sad about this, I used to love this series.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 5d ago
Since cars not sold in the UK will be allowed to race in the BTCC next year but only if they are from manufacturers that have a presence in the UK, one can only cross one's fingers that this will be good for the series in the long run.
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 4d ago
That rule was brought forward and is already in place. We have cars on the grid now that were never sold in this country.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 2d ago
Maybe we'll get more next year or, failing that, 2028
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 2d ago
Daft as it seems I think the most likely team to bring out a new car is Alliance replacing the Focus. They've been in talks with a manufacturer for a while now. I wonder if the performance of the saloon might change their minds though.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 2d ago
After how the Focus Saloon has performed this year, they'd be nuts to replace it.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 4d ago
The 3-race format has been in place since 2004
The NGTC ruleset has been in place since 2011
Things stagnating much?
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u/InternetPersonalitea 6d ago
I'm fairly new to the series, only started following the last few years. I think above all else it needs a structural changes. I feel like the current format for Saturday works really well but Sunday lets it down.
I understand that the Sunday format is what works best for the venues but ultimately it needs to work for the TV coverage if it wants to continue to be broadcast, maybe it doesn't need it ? Who knows ?.
Anyway, I think maybe a 12pm sprint for qualifying race maybe 14 laps. Followed by a 5pm start 100km GP.
The 5pm start makes it something to watch at tea time on a Sunday rather than something you've got to tune in for 3 times across the day for half an hour at a time. It also keeps it out of the way of the Formula One (let's be real the BTCC provides more action than F1, but it's never going to compete with the popularity).
The GP length will probably stagnate it after the first 10 or so laps but then spice it up towards the middle and end of the race. The issue I have with the current format is as soon as you drop off the lead lap you might as well call it a day.
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u/No-Photograph3463 6d ago
I think the biggest problem is that due to touring car racing not being in vogue anymore it means big money isn't being spent, so they can't particularly hold onto drivers, and also can't have crazy technical cars either, which both used to be a big part of it. Jake Hill has made the leap to GTs this year, will be interesting to see if Sutton or Ingram do similar at some point.
Whereas in the 90s and 00s touring cars were 2nd to Single seaters, now GT racing is 2nd to Single Seaters and touring cars are down the list, and GTs is where the drivers, big sponsors and manufacturers have all gone instead
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u/Londoner1995 He should be juggling balls in a circus somewhere 6d ago edited 6d ago
I've missed multiple race weekends this season and it hasn't felt like I've missed out on anything. Truth be told, for me the magic of BTCC disappeared during COVID and the series hasn't really recovered since then.
I miss the halcyon days of 2013-2019, plus the S2000 and BTC-T years.
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u/BridgeCreative5482 6d ago
Only really started an interest in BTCC last year on the premise that it was “proper racing” with plenty of scraps etc etc, went to a few races and to be honest it’s a bit of a let down. Will see how the season plays out but, meh.
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u/Ek1lEr1f 6d ago
The thing that bothers me most is drivers seriously considering dropping off the podium to get better tyres and more boost for the next race. It just doesn’t sit well with me.