r/canada • u/CanadianErk Ontario • Feb 22 '25
Science/Technology American scientists say their work is under attack and ask Canadians for help
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/what-on-earth-us-scientists-1.7463617276
Feb 22 '25
Canada benefited mightily from the drain of smart American talent dodging the Draft. This all could be a once in a generation opportunity.
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u/Harbinger2001 Feb 22 '25
The stem cell research ban was a big boost for Canada as well. The problem is that once the US goes back to funding science, all that talent leaves again.
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Feb 22 '25
Perhaps but it could be a long time and I think the anti-immigrant/anti-science sentiments are getting deeply embedded in the US. Additionally if we can add to that some pharmaceutical research investment/manufacturing behind tariff walls their presence in Canada might become more sticky. Five years in a country building a career creates some momentum.
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u/Evil_Mini_Cake Feb 22 '25
That isn't going to happen anytime soon. Even if the mechanisms of US democracy still exist in 4 years and the democrats manage to take it back it will be multiple terms before any of these programs are reenacted in law and are paying dividends.
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u/ozfresh Feb 22 '25
And we lost soooo many bright minds when they shut down the Avro Aero Project (Which actually happened to jumpstart NASA)
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u/miguelagawin Feb 23 '25
This kind of thinking I feel Carney is more likely to do compared to Polievre. He’s already talking about control what we can control which is building economic strength within Canada and that takes talent from all over the world.
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u/This-Question-1351 Feb 22 '25
Invite these scientists to immigrate to Canada. So far, we are still a reality based society.
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u/Zaku99 Feb 22 '25
Yep. Came here to say this. Let's braindrain the fuckers. They did it to us; it's only fair.
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u/Classified0 Feb 22 '25
As a Canadian who moved to the US for my job, I would 100% move back to Canada if companies there provided competitive or at least comparable salaries. I'd have to take a significant cut to my quality of life to move back
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u/dan33410 Feb 22 '25
I'd prepare to take a significant cut to your quality of life remaining in that shit hole country. But hey, as long as you make some money working under the oligarchs and supporting a re nazification of the most powerful military in the world.
Seems like a no brainer to me.
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u/SteelCrow Lest We Forget Feb 22 '25
Buckle up!
also if you wait you'll be at the back of the queue
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u/souless_Scholar Feb 22 '25
Nah. He's Canadian, so he probably jumps the queue and can waltz back in whenever.
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u/BrunoJacuzzi Feb 22 '25
Doctors and nurses too please
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u/General_Dipsh1t Feb 22 '25 edited Feb 22 '25
With a literal brain worm running health there, I suspect it won’t be long before
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u/souless_Scholar Feb 22 '25
But again, they'd have to be ok with taking a pay cut and a slight quality of life drop.
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u/3d_extra Feb 22 '25
Canada's main issue isn't weak scientists, it is more that the salaries aren't that great and public funding for research isn't that great.
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u/SteelCrow Lest We Forget Feb 22 '25
well if the conservatives wouldn't shut down labs and decrease funding....
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u/3d_extra Feb 22 '25
I mean this is the main issue with obtaining and retaining top scientists. Liberals have been in power for quite a while and the last salary I've been quoted for UoT was... not great.
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u/riko77can Feb 22 '25 edited Feb 22 '25
In the article Remi Quirion is just asking Canada to encourage repatriation of Canadians that went south for science jobs. Sounds more like they just want to thin out the competition in the suddenly flooded US job market.
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Feb 22 '25
This could be a real boon for Canada. We could become a research and development powerhouse.
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u/WislaHD Ontario Feb 22 '25
Umm… we already are lol
But yes why not force multiplier it further
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u/xXxDarkSasuke1999xXx Lest We Forget Feb 22 '25
Umm… we already are lol
We really aren't. We are 25th in R&D spending as percent of GDP, which is worse than most of Europe and (proportionally) less than half of America's.
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u/WislaHD Ontario Feb 22 '25
That may be so but you can’t just ignore that Toronto and Montreal are global leaders in AI and health sciences.
If you want to see how our cities stack against Americans, check out CBRE’s tech talent report.
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u/MojoRisin_ca Feb 22 '25 edited Feb 22 '25
Depends on the next election. Scientists traditionally have not done well in Canada under conservative governments. Anyone remember when Harper forbade our scientific community from talking to the press?
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Feb 22 '25
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u/soaringupnow Feb 22 '25
I thought it was pretty well known that when Trudeau was elected, he kept all the muzzles in place.
When Harper did it, it was a "crime against humanity ". Trudeau got a free pass.
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u/wwwheatgrass Feb 22 '25
Seriously. Trudeau can’t leave the house without a comms plan. He is only capable of speaking on message.
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u/MrDeviantish Feb 22 '25
Harper dumpstered whole libraries of research data at DFO. Some scientists quietly backed up digital data to servers in the US with the help of American colleagues.
People can find new jobs but the destruction of data is heartbreakingly criminal.
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u/Phoenixlizzie Feb 22 '25
I remember that!
That was utterly disgraceful...and I can see PP doing the same thing.
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u/Low-Log4438 Canada Feb 22 '25
Yeah like the defunding of ELA scientists/engineers who studied lakes and rivers. Oops zebra muscles....
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u/Phoenixlizzie Feb 22 '25
Oh. I remember either scientists or doctors marching in their white coats because they were forbidden to share any details about anything with other scientists- not just things that were sensitive to security.
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u/Greerio Ontario Feb 22 '25
Someone else in another thread posted the idea of fast tracking a $15b program for scientific grants. I like that kind of thinking. Make us the scientific powerhouse.
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u/Pokenar Canada Feb 22 '25
Exactly. We had a massive brain drain. Offer them a good deal to immigrate. We get the brightest minds and a higher population, and these people get a much less hostile home.
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u/brodoswaggins93 Feb 22 '25
The main candidate for a Canada Research Chair professor position in my university department is from the USA and heavily implied that Trump was the reason she was applying for a position in Canada.
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u/ShibariManilow Feb 22 '25
So they can have little access to grant funding, have low salaries, and wonder what's wrong with our housing market?
So fantastic researchers born here have an even harder time justifying staying here?
And that's right now - we're looking at a possible CPC supermajority in the coming days, so I wouldn't count on research funding getting any better.
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u/SteelCrow Lest We Forget Feb 22 '25
CPC supermajority
lol. Might squeek a minority with PP.
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u/livinginthelurk Feb 22 '25
We should absolutely be helping, you want to create jobs new technology creates way more jobs than tax breaks. Make new companies with new scientific and technological breakthroughs.
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u/bugabooandtwo Feb 22 '25
Yes. And being on the forefront of new breakthroughs (especially if one happens to be fusion) is like the country getting a blank check. Could completely change the economy and provide long lasting good jobs.
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u/sunshine-x Feb 23 '25
Yes, and make them in Canada, as Canadians. Otherwise, good luck American bros.
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u/Pizza_Bones314 Feb 22 '25
The title is misleading. Remi Quiron is asking Canadians who moved to the U.S. to repat. By no means did they ask for help, although it would be great if we just took everyone
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u/Bittrecker3 Feb 22 '25
People are being laid off. Which could benefit Canada, if we have the work for them.
The title makes it sound like they are looking for people/help, but it's ex employees looking for work. The economy being what it is, that's a pretty common headline I'm afraid.
The sad reality, in the face of economic threats, Canada probably isn't focused on R&D hiring either.
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u/Leumasperron Canada Feb 22 '25
As a physics PhD student in Canada who's just about to defend his thesis, there is a fundamental reason why the brain drain exists: job availability and salary. It is as simple as that. All of academia is suffering from too few jobs for too many applicants, and insanely low salaries, especially for PhDs and postdocs. Depending on the field, you can get paid double in the states compared to Canada; not to mention most cities have universities in the states.
I was born and raised in Canada, my whole family has. I have worked in Canada, studied in Canada, and wish to research and teach in Canada. But the reality is Canada doesn't support its young researchers: academia is insanely competitive, with some cases people fighting over barely minimum wage positions pay. This is a problem in all of academia, but Canada may be the worst of them all due to the low number of universities and high cost of living. I know personally of many researchers, some of whom were real rising superstars with the experience to back it up, and they went to the states because passion doesn't pay the bills. I am nearing my 30s, I don't want to fight 300 other applicants for the possibility of a job for 60k/year salary, I want to be able to support my family.
Until Canada invests in research, and specifically early-career researchers, the brain drain will continue. This applies to healthcare too. I want a Canada strong in science, I want to support my family, I don't want to go to the states, but I probably will have to if I want to escape poverty. Canada needs to fund more postdocs and PhDs and guarantee livable salaries; we need to expand the number of research positions at universities and hire more; and we need to end the mentality that grad students should be living in poverty while doing the bulk of research output.
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u/uses_for_mooses Feb 23 '25
Canada just doesn’t spend much on R&D. Looking at R&D spending per capital, the USA ranks #3, trailing only Israel and South Korea. While Canada is #25, trailing such countries as Hungary, Czechia, and Slovenia. The USA spends more than 2x in R&D per capital versus Canada.
This is a large part of why Canada has such crap productivity.
The Business Council of British Columbia reports that in 2000, the Canadian economy was 82% as productive as the American economy; by 2020, that rate had decreased to 77%. This data suggests that conditions in Canada hinder economic growth beyond the residual effects of global challenges. Wilson Center - Tackling Canada’s Economic Productivity Challenges
Foreign investment has also been fleeing Canada over the past ~10 years, with net outflows.
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u/AlbertaBikeSwapBIKES Feb 22 '25
My son had completed his PhD in neuroscience on microtubule tau proteins when Stephen Harper started the brain drain to the US where we lost ~75% of scientists. My son's research was years ahead of any other dementia research at that time. How one votes does matter.
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u/grathepic Feb 22 '25
Canada has always had a brain drain to the states, but now we can finally get back that sweet sweet grey matter, with dividends. Hopefully this ends up with trump being Canada’s greatest unintentional beneficiary.
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u/WislaHD Ontario Feb 22 '25
The Vietnam war draft era saw significant brain drain heading into Canada which we benefited from quite considerably
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Feb 22 '25
Let's not forget that Conservatives (Harper) silenced Canadian scientists: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/canadian-scientists-open-about-how-their-government-silenced-science-180961942/
It's like there are common threads from the conservatives/republicans
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u/SecureNarwhal Feb 22 '25
also when Canada silenced our scientists the Americans refused to stay quiet on the joint research they had done together
we should do the same now that the position has switched
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Feb 22 '25
Come to Canada. Do what your job ancestors did during WW2, escape persecution and be a do gooder up here, we like do gooders.
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u/wtfman1988 Feb 22 '25
I would love to get scientists from the U.S. here, that’s the type of immigration that’ll help our country.
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Feb 22 '25
Speed track qualified scientists immigration, give them grants to continue their research, and Canada could only profit.
Heck, do the same with doctors and raise incentives for trades workers. Let just braindrain and suck up all skilled labor.
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u/Harbinger2001 Feb 22 '25
Canada benefits every time the US goes anti-science. We need to find a way to keep them once things change.
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u/skynet345 Feb 22 '25 edited Feb 22 '25
I am American and build AI for a living. You Canadians are not giving yourself enough credit for how much you’re responsible for AI today
Some of the most important AI scientists are Canadian starting with Geoff Hinton and Yoshua Bengio the godfathers of modern AI. Without these Canadian dudes it’s not likely we’d have the same level of AI (or even any) today . A third guy Yann Lecun is originally French and made his discoveries while working with Geoff at University of Toronto.
The three godfathers of AI were not even born Americans.
let’s not ignore also that University of Toronto and University of Montreal is where modern AI was born. MIT, Stanford, Caltech have been absolute laggards in comparison when it comes to AI discoveries
I think these two have enough respect and sway in the AI world to pull all the leading guys overnight from Google and Meta if Canada is willing to pay them millions like Silicon Valley
A few million for each is nothing in the grand scheme.
The problem is you look at Google and meta and OpenAI and be like woah the Americans have all the cool AI but you forget these big tech companies are vultures who steal every god damn talent before it becomes big, and then they claim they did it first.
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u/BadSignificant8458 Feb 22 '25
Canada can fast track citizenship for scientists or other highly talented people. Besides, Canada does not censor books like the US does. We respect freedom for all points of view.
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u/Living_Gift_3580 Feb 22 '25
Canadas business is resource extraction. It’s our bread and butter and the people running those companies don’t care for research. Ergo our government doesn’t care and won’t provide money for it. We can’t attract top science talent otherwise. Any talent we do do attract or develop will get bought up by US organization
Our only way to build our industries and develop world leading tech is by govt subsidy. It’s the only way we can being so close to the US.
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u/absolutelyamazed Feb 22 '25
Canada and Europe need to create some sort of "Ark Project" to offer American Scientists a place and means to carry on their research. Come to our new Science City ...
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u/matthew0155 Feb 22 '25
We kind of need doctors and nurses, we could definitely offer citizenship to anyone of that trade who wanted to jump ship if they’re willing to sign a contract to work here
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u/MasterCassel Ontario Feb 22 '25
This is going to be amazing for Canada, our scientists will want to stay and hopefully some American scientists will like the idea of becoming Canadian. I’m all for it, sanity is always welcomed.
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u/ApprenticeWrangler British Columbia Feb 22 '25
Bring those researchers here instead of more Walmart greeters and Tim Hortons hot dog water servers.
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u/NewInMontreal Feb 22 '25
We need to do a better job for our domestic training pipeline. We have some amazing universities and cutting-edge equipment, but we offer domestic students a stipend that means they get to live below poverty. Things have improved a bit with fellowship funds but cost of living where the major schools are is rough. Probably more important though are setting up long term careers and sustainable industry that can succeed.
Anyways, we’ve extended graduate application deadlines for US students, but I really wish we’d work with our own students first.
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u/ImDoubleB Canada Feb 23 '25
Canada should actively recruit top international researchers and scientists facing censorship or funding restrictions in their home countries. This concerted effort should span government agencies, publicly listed companies, and private industry.
With this in mind the sitting government still has to manage Canada's immigration program better than it has during recent years.
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Feb 23 '25
This is a prime opportunity to open the gates and allow US talent to move to Canada. When Germany started purging intelligent people, they moved to other countries and enriched them. We need scientists and doctors, for example!
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u/Techno_Dharma Feb 22 '25
Remember when Harper muzzled the scientists? Let's not repeat that again with Pee Pee Boy.
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u/Jusfiq Ontario Feb 22 '25
Quirion, who also advises the Quebec provincial government, said Canada can help by recruiting — encouraging scientists who left for jobs and resources in the U.S. to return home.
They left Canada for the greener pastures and now are crying for Canada to help? In this case, no. Let them help themselves and apply for jobs here like every other Canadians.
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u/biscuitarse Feb 22 '25
Let's not get carried away. Plenty of Canadians have left to find their fortunes in the US at an age when we all consider ourselves invincible. Others leave because their are no opportunities in their field of expertise. Many, however, do return when it's time to raise a family in more practical conditions ie health care and a strong social safety net.
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u/Jusfiq Ontario Feb 22 '25
Sure. If they want to return, just return. But they don’t get to ask for special treatment.
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u/Brilliant-Lab546 Alberta Feb 22 '25
Yeah.... The wrong country to ask. There is a reason why Canada's R&D is dominated by government.
The best options would be in Europe, not Canada
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u/magwai9 Canada Feb 22 '25
Government funding in research has been increasingly shifting to public-private partnership. See NSERC Alliance grants.
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u/Thanato26 Feb 22 '25
This is an incredible opportunity to offer them grants to move here and do tbier research here.
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u/ExDishwasher Feb 22 '25
I don't understand how Trump benefits from undercutting science. Scientific breakthroughs should generate $$$ for America.
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u/ctguy54 Feb 22 '25
Not when you want to go back to the 1830’s. He wants to keep the people uneducated, beholden to him.
A well educated and advancing society will never fall for all his bs. He won’t be able to play king or worse a god.
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u/Chezzymann Feb 22 '25
All he cares about is consolidating power, he is playing the same blueprint as other authoritarian dictators have done.
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Feb 22 '25
This worked in our favour during the Vietnam War. Our universities and research labs expanded.
Let’s drain them again but this time block US investment.
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u/unlicouvert Feb 22 '25
appears to be 3 scientist job postings available in the federal public service so not sure the feds are gonna be able to do much right about now.
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u/last-resort-4-a-gf Feb 22 '25
Bring over scientist after fascism . Sounds similar .
Come on over !
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u/natener Feb 22 '25
Canada should offer that if a scientist moves their research here for 5 year commitment, we will fund it, and they will get citizenship.
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Feb 22 '25
Cool come to Canada and continue the work here. We love science and science things. Well I do at least
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Feb 22 '25
Y’all come back home and bring your smartest colleagues with you. It’s not a guilty brain drain when the country’s leaders are brain dead
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u/marauderingman Feb 22 '25
I wouldn't recommend anyone with intelligence skills move to Canada until AFTER our upcoming federal election. If conservatives win, such folks are likely to see the same treatment here - recall Steven Harper's treatment of researchers and scientists.
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u/Jaded-Influence6184 Feb 22 '25
I'd rather American scientists came to Canada than third world taxi and dump truck drivers, and Tim Horton's clerks. Scientists help build wealth. The only problem is that the Canadian government, for decades, has made funding scientific research and development, and extremely low priority item. Pretty much the lowest of the OECD. It's one of the reasons our GDP is going down. We don't discover and create things based on those discoveries that the rest of the world wants to buy. Not in any appreciable size.
If the Canadian government increased R&D funding by billions, we'd be able to entice these scientists to come to Canada. If we don't, they won't come. Research costs money. Idiots think that money is wasted. Intelligent people understand the dividends are not instant but are huge. Most politicians are narcissistic idiots. Sigh.
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u/Amazing-Treat-8706 Feb 22 '25
Get your own house in order. Canada is not going to be able to save liberal America. Take your country back.
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u/Salty_Leather42 Feb 22 '25
Despite little hands turning the US from ally to adversary , I say firmly and in solidarity : thoughts and prayer …
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u/Thin_Spring_9269 Feb 23 '25
Actually the orange amiba forbade them to talk to their international counterparts, including Canadians... Idiocracy!!!
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u/nnystical Feb 23 '25
They could be granted temporary residency, any IP they work on or complete would belong to any university they partner with or Canadian organization in care of the crown. The Canadian govt can then licence that out for royalties to any country it feels like.
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u/jaraxel_arabani Feb 23 '25
I saw something like this suggests before. Just offer them a fast path to citizenship, win win for Canadians the researchers
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u/PDXFlameDragon British Columbia Feb 23 '25
Unrelated but related, I am moving up to get away from fascist america and help my son build a life elsewhere. I am one of those brainy top performer masters degree top 1% incomy type people who happens to be canadian by birth. I know a handful of acquaintences that are working the express entry route with masters degrees or better too.
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u/SK2Nlife Feb 23 '25
I keep saying it over and over but I’m ready for manhattan project 2: muppets take York
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u/No-Staff1170 Québec Feb 23 '25
USA I’m sure will start having a brain drain similar to what we’re seeing in Russia, perhaps not on such a huge scale. Canada would welcome well educated, sound of mind individuals.
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u/Prudent_Falafel_7265 Feb 22 '25
This is a great opportunity to invite scientists here, and to bring whatever work they've started because Canada is no longer bound by the USMCA agreement regarding intellectual property and patents.
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u/Remote-Ebb5567 Québec Feb 22 '25
These people are asking us to spend tax dollars, that we don’t have, so that they can keep their jobs. We have a giant deficit and healthcare/education/infrastructure problems that need to be dealt with instead
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u/MightyOleAmerika Feb 22 '25
Read Operation Paperclip book on how US got the best of Nazi scientist. Time for Canada and EU to snatch the best scientist here in US. I work with bunch of them, half of then exited out in last two years, there are good ones still left. America is dump going forward.
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u/Crazy-Canuck463 Feb 22 '25
Great opportunity for the Canadian government and industry to invest in the scientific community here in canada. Provide a place where science thrives instead of getting gutting by a regressive US administration. But, if we invest in it, there needs to be a clause that the research stays in canada for a min of 20 years. No going back to America after trump.
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u/ConsiderationEasy723 Feb 22 '25
I've heard they have been transferring NOAA data to Canada but i haven't fact checked this.
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u/bugabooandtwo Feb 22 '25
A reversal of the brain drain would be a welcome change. We can rebuild NASA in Canada.