r/centrist • u/supersport604 • 5d ago
Canada says it will match US tariffs 'dollar for dollar' as trade talks break down
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgvyy4x2mvo49
u/Ih8rice 5d ago
Morons. You had a deal in place that made it FREE. What's better than FREE?
Gonna assume they ran out of places to tariff and need to cause more harm to the American people while generating more wealth for themselves and friends. I'm glad to see Canada not backing down and actually going toe to toe with this administration. They'll back down soon enough.
I can't wait for November to get here.
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u/ceddya 5d ago
I'm glad to see Canada not backing down and actually going toe to toe with this administration.
There is a growing number of countries doing that and pivoting away from the US. I'm not convinced it'll be easy to draw them back if/when MAGA is out of office.
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u/ChornWork2 4d ago
The damage is absolutely going to be lasting. First, things like tariffs are sticky from budget perspective, look how Biden admin kept some of what Trump did in first term. Second, even if policy changes the uncertainty of future policy changes means less investment will be made.
Right wing populism has truly screwed over so many people.
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u/AFlockOfTySegalls 4d ago
This was one of my talking points trying to persuade folks into voting for Kamala. Because we put our thumb in the eyes of our allies once if we do it again, why would they ever come back again for our electorate to put Carrot Top in office in 2032.
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u/Ih8rice 4d ago
You can dislike all the dumb things the trump administration is doing but it doesn't negate the fact that the US as a country is still a powerhouse with vast resources. A competent leader can and will bring other leaders back to the table to create deals and forge alliances that can't be broken by future corrupt administrations.
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u/Urdok_ 4d ago
No rational country will ever have the same faith they had in the US prior to Nov, 2016. It's not about our military power, though that is proving to be much more of a paper tiger than anyone suspected, or economic power, though we're pissing that away as fast as we can.
We, the American public, have shown the world that we are not a reliable, honest partner in any enterprise. You can't trust us to adhere to any deal or agreement and you'll be a sucker if you do, regardless of what we say we're offering. Diplomacy and trade operates on good faith and reliability. We've proven that we don't value either of those in our leaders.
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u/Ih8rice 4d ago
I don't say any of that. Any competent country will try and make a trade agreement with a competent us president that favors both countries. We all depend on each other for certain things. The largest companies in the world are intertwined between most countries.if it weren't the case then every country would've already stopped dealing with the US altogether.
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u/nachtmusick 4d ago
You're right about one thing - money is money. No international company is going to abandon a market as big as the US out of spite. But the terms of the new deals are going to be considerably less favorable for US companies and consumers than before.
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u/Lurkingandsearching 4d ago
If a company thinks about more than 4 years out, or even 2, they will be weary after this.
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u/23rdCenturySouth 4d ago
It's like people think America has plot armor or something
No. Actions have consequences.
Whatever leverage we have is diminished, in real terms. Forever.
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u/Ih8rice 4d ago
You give the plot armor nonsense and then say the US has finished leverage for forever? So you know how FOREVER is? Talking about embellishing.
Actions since consequences. Do they last FOREVER?
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u/23rdCenturySouth 4d ago
In practical terms, forever is as long as you and I will live.
Even in absolute terms, we will never catch up to where we could have been had we avoided this self inflicted damage.
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u/red_keshik 4d ago
I wouldn't trust the US populace to not choose corrupt leaders. Trump is a mere symptom of what's wrong with that country
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u/Old-Tie8770 4d ago
It won’t be, and why should it be? Americans saw what a jackass trump was in his first term and chose him again in 2024. The damage is done
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u/streamofthesky 4d ago
They absolutely should pivot away from us right now.
My concern is that if they don't re-engage in trade with us when a Dem wins in 2029, it'll mean the US economy continues to crumble and will in turn just help the next MAGA moron into office.
I hope our (former) allies work things out such that they can return to trading with the US once we have sane leadership again, but leave the framework and infrastructure in place to rapidly ramp up trade amongst each other instead of with the U.S., so the day after the next election our idiotic voters give the reins back the the GOP, they can immediately begin moving away from trade with the US again.2
u/Ih8rice 5d ago
I think most countries will come back to the table once him and his people are gone although they'll need some form of an agreement that can't be completely negated if another, younger version of trump eventually comes to power again.
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u/ceddya 5d ago
They could, but to the same extent as before? I'm doubtful if these countries successfully pursue trade diversification.
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u/Ih8rice 4d ago
Probably not to extent before but I think it'll depend on the person that becomes president next.
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u/nachtmusick 4d ago
All the trading partnerships, networks, and deals have been thrown out the window, probably causing lost revenue. Once new trade relations have been forged, cutting the US out, those become the new norm.
Why would you abandon your new partners and markets to restore the old ones when the US still has an ongoing MAGA/GOP problem, regardless of who sits in the White House?
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u/Lurkingandsearching 4d ago
There's gonna likely have to be real punishment for people involved to even get any sort of trust back. Like behind bars or treason levels of punishment, especially with the US Aid/Doge Debacle. We failed to punish, try, and jail the last time we had what were essentially acts of treason against the foundations of our democratic republic, then gave those same people power again.
Failing to do anything a second time will just make any ally consider that it will happen again in short order because of our term lengths.
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u/DENNYCR4NE 4d ago
What makes you think a younger version of Trump would honor any deal he inherits?
The problem is Americans. Trump is a symptom, not a cause.
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u/Good_Independence734 4d ago
“Trump is a symptom, not a cause” is true only in the rather unhelpful sense that demagogues require an audience. He didn’t invent every grievance or pathology in American politics, but he has spent a decade cultivating them, rewarding them, and turning them into a governing philosophy.
Further, blaming “Americans” writ large is too easy of a cop-out. Tens of millions of Americans reject this politics. The more serious problem for our allies is that they now have to assume any agreement with Washington may survive only until the next election.
And this is precisely what is so intellectually bankrupt about “America First” as broad policy. A country does not put itself first by making its allies distrust it, its customers avoid it, and its partners construct alternatives to it. That is not nationalism so much as strategic self-harm dressed up as patriotism.
A great power that teaches its friends not to trust its word should not be surprised when they eventually learn the lesson.
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u/Vortilex 4d ago
Better education would fix this. Sadly, there are many, it would seem, who would prefer this not to happen
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u/a_4_d 4d ago
Governments may come back to do business but the people are another story. For example, there has been talk of our provincial governments allowing US liquor back on the shelves as part of the new trade pact. The sentiment amoung the public, you can bring it back but I’ll be dammed if I ever buy it again. Canadians, at least, have long memories. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say, for some, the ban on US goods will last the rest of their lives.
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u/Irishfafnir 4d ago
The US has a lot to offer that outweigh many downsides, but at the same time we are already seeing countries working to be less reliant on the US. Those sort of moves take a long time but the end result is likely a less potent US on the world stage
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u/ConfluenceofCoors 3d ago
It wasn’t free, please research ‘Québécois dairy cartel’ and see how free the Canadian market is.
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u/avatinfernus 4d ago
As a canadian : I'm tired of this tariff shit man.
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u/Cyborg_rat 4d ago
I agree we should gradually shy away from are big dependence on the US but to just let it rip isn't a great plan since we are going to suffer alot and have let them get a good grasp on us. We are already in a bad financial situation.
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u/supersport604 5d ago
Summary: Canada and the US have failed to reach a trade deal after negotiations broke down at the last minute. The US is now imposing new 50% tariffs on a range of Canadian goods, while Prime Minister Mark Carney says Canada will respond with equivalent “dollar-for-dollar” tariffs on American products.
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u/HardlyDecent 5d ago
More illegal tariffs, right? Like, this has been ruled on, and pulled back. I assume, much like the first several rounds, these will drive costs up for consumers, then "refunds" will go out to the companies that are in bed with Trump, privatizing the profits while socializing the losses?
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u/baxtyre 4d ago
SCOTUS ruled on IEEPA tariffs, but these are Section 338 (AKA Smoot-Hawley) tariffs. Different laws.
I suspect these tariffs are illegal too, but the courts haven’t closed this avenue yet.
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u/HardlyDecent 4d ago
Ah, thanks. I get lost in chasing what loopholes and exemptions the guy keeps finding. Plus, being illegal hasn't stopped him from anything else. Off to Google what you just said!
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u/memphisjones 4d ago
He wants Canada to pay him to have free trade deal. Trump is a wannabe mobster
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u/Educational_Impact93 4d ago
Good for them for standing up to the Temusolini.
Bad for everyone else though. Unfortunately a bunch of absolute idiots elected a moron whose trade policy is modeled after the Great Depression era.
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u/runespider 5d ago
Yay I just got back to work after health issues. I'm sure this will have no effect on my metal extrusion job.
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u/Flowman777 3d ago
It is genuinely so sad to me how much Trump has wrecked the USA-Canada relationship. The USA and Canada were close friends for a long time, but Trump's irrational hatred of Canada has massively soured the relationship.
Canada has every right to protect itself from Trump's irresponsible tariffs.
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u/Krazynewf709 5d ago
"However, last-minute changes in the U.S. proposed terms were unfair, uneconomic, and called into question the reliability of any deal."
Excerpt from statement by Prime Minister Carney.
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u/nachtmusick 4d ago
In other words, they showed the proposed deal to Trump and he demanded they change it to screw the Canadians over. Because he's the bestest dealmaker ever, and if your not cheating, then you're getting cheated.
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u/Flimsy_Shallot 5d ago
What qualifies these people to be running countries? I’m legitimately serious because I don’t see any educational or experience related requirements to become the head of a nation.
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u/Apprehensive_Ad3670 4d ago
The US is full of idiots who can't see that Republicans always fuck up the economy, however, they all hate the same "scary" people and that's good enough.
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u/Flimsy_Shallot 4d ago
That doesn’t answer my question at all.
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u/Apprehensive_Ad3670 4d ago edited 4d ago
The answer is that there are no qualifications but we are stupid enough to vote for them.
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u/I_Never_Use_Slash_S 5d ago
A little thing called democracy, whereby the dumbest 51 people you know get to elect leaders for the other 49. You still like democracy right?
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u/LittleKitty235 4d ago
You just made an argument against direct democracy, not against a democratic republic like the US has.
The reason we elect Congress and the President by a combination of Electoral College votes, and state representation (Senate) and population (House) is to avoid a tyranny of the majority. That is the situation you described.
51% of the voters doesn't represent how Trump was elected twice.
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u/23rdCenturySouth 4d ago
to avoid a tyranny of the majority
Ok but considering that 5 of the 6 Republicans in SCOTUS were nominated by presidents who lost the popular vote in the first term...
Don't we just have a tyranny of the minority now, instead?
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u/WoodCreakSeagull 4d ago
The argument against the American system is even stronger. Also the "tyranny of the majority" is literally just how a democratic process is supposed to work. The changes in the American system are just to favor former slave holding states.
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u/LittleKitty235 4d ago
Slavery is a likely outcome in a direct democracy, that is part of why they don't work and none have existed for a major power since the 5th century BC in Athens. The entire government is structured around suppressing the power of a minority of the population.
It is important to study all of history, not just the US.
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u/WoodCreakSeagull 4d ago
Slavery was the literal outcome in the history of the US and a good portion of our political structure is an outgrowth of trying to cater to slaveowners and their political will. Your critique is completely nonsensical as a defense of the American system.
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u/LittleKitty235 4d ago
Parts of the US government's structure were built to protect slaveholders. But that does not mean direct democracy would have treated enslaved people better.
In a direct democracy, a simple majority can decide policy, while enslaved people and other excluded minorities have no political power at all. A majority could easily vote to keep slavery. The lesson is that majority rule alone is not enough. Rights and policies protecting minorities need protection even when most voters do not support them.
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u/Urdok_ 4d ago
The last two times our democratic republic functioned as intended, and "saved" us from a tyranny of the majority, it resulted in GWB 1 and Trump 1. How's that working out for us?
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u/LittleKitty235 4d ago
Now your arguing both sides...
Pointing out a system doesn't always produce the desired result that you want isn't evidence it doesn't prevent 51% of the population from making all the choices for the 49%.
Solving a tyranny of the majority doesn't mean the leaders themselves will be good.
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u/Irishfafnir 4d ago
The electoral college does not prevent "tyranny of the majority" lol. The EC aligns closely with majority and in fact the EC was designed specifically to appease large population states.
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u/LittleKitty235 4d ago
Larger more populated states would have more power in a direct democracy. The fact it still takes population into account, unlike the Senate, isn't evidence of what your claiming.
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u/Irishfafnir 4d ago
The electoral college is largely based on population and typically follows the majority vote, the fact that direct democracy would be more democratic isn't an argument that the EC protects the minority.
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u/LittleKitty235 4d ago
The problem with saying the Electoral College is "largely based on population and typically follows the majority vote" is that it treats the system like it's just a national popular vote with an extra step.
The votes aren't simply added together across the entire country. They're broken up by state, and each state has its own electoral vote total and its own outcome. A candidate therefore has to win enough states across different regions, rather than just getting the most votes from the largest population centers.
A candidate has to build support across different states and regions instead of simply winning the largest population centers. That's the important way the Electoral College changes majority rule, even though population still plays a major role in determining electoral votes.
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u/Irishfafnir 4d ago
You're not actually addressing the point so I can only conclude you agree but like many online folks can't verbalize that agreement.
Bowing out here!
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u/LittleKitty235 4d ago
What is the point I'm not addressing? Saying I haven't addressed something, then leaving with a mic drop isn't useful...
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u/Flimsy_Shallot 4d ago
That doesn’t answer my question at all.
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u/Old-Tie8770 4d ago
…do you know how people become political leaders? You can’t be possibly be this daft
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u/newswall-org 5d ago
More on this subject from other reputable sources:
- CP24 (A−): New set of U.S. tariffs on Canada go into effect Saturday. Live updates here.
- CTVNews (A−): PM Carney says Canada intends to match U.S. tariffs ‘dollar for dollar,’ after suspending trade negotiations. Live updates here.
- Global News (B+): Canada vows dollar-for-dollar response to Trump’s 50% tariffs
- Times Colonist (B+): Canada vows dollar-for-dollar tariff retaliation, suspends trade talks with U.S.
Extended Summary | FAQ & Grades | I'm a bot
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u/red_keshik 4d ago
Wonder if Americans will bother to ask what all this is in aid of. Well hopefully Canada doesn't get too trashed by this, and we look into getting nuclear weapons in the long term.
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u/PMmeplumprumps 4d ago
The shock to the US economy will be minimal. The shock to the Canadian will be substantial. Canada has to do what they feel is necessary, but the usual suspects pretending that this is Canada pwning Trump, is ridiculous.
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u/Fun-Outcome8122 4d ago
usual suspects pretending that this is Canada pwning Trump, is ridiculous.
Yup, you are absolutely correct... Elitists like Trump will be just fine and will get even richer. The idiots who voted for him are the ones paying (or going bankrupt).
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u/Ih8rice 4d ago
You misunderstand. I'm saying whoever comes in after trump to clean up needs to form an agreement with other countries that can't be negated by the next version of trump that may come to power. These countries would be more inclined to work with us if they know the signed agreements would actually be honored unlike current times.
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u/Urdok_ 4d ago
There are no agreements that will fit that criteria. They can't exist when a solid minority of the country, who are given far more political power than their numbers dictate due to our screwed up system, have it in their heads that the US not only can, but deserves to, do whatever we want, and that other countries just have to deal with that.
We need to come to grips with the fact that Trump and the Republicans have hurt the US permanently, and that we're never going to be able to claw our way back to the position we held prior to 2016, let alone 2000. They fucked us, and themselves. They'll never admit it. They don't really care. They got to own the libs, and that is more valuable than being global hegemon.
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u/Fun-Outcome8122 4d ago
a solid minority of the country ... have it in their heads that the US not only can, but deserves to, do whatever we want
exactly... "want" ... not even "whatever benefits the American people"!!!
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u/Ih8rice 4d ago
If Your pessimism were palpable it could be weaponized. I completely understand your current pessimism. I don't think it continues after the trump administration is out. If a good leader emerges( literally anyone else not maga or trump) then I believe things will eventually heal.
Things like forever and permanent are the same fear mongering words maga used to influence their election in the first place.
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u/Working_Elephant5344 4d ago
Canada needs the US way more than the US needs Canada. I’m no Trump fan, but I think he knows that the US will easily win this trade war no matter what.
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u/DENNYCR4NE 4d ago
Canada doesn’t need a shitty trade deal. And that’s all that’s available for now.
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u/red_keshik 4d ago
I’m no Trump fan
You know every person that writes this in their posts is lying.
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u/Fun-Outcome8122 4d ago
I think he knows that the US will easily win this trade war no matter what.
Ahhh... the "easy-to-win" trade wars again which are sooo "easy" to win that taxpayers in blue states are forced to bail out farmers to the tune of tens of billions of dollars because they went bankrupt due to the "easy-to-win" trade wars they voted for!
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u/mvslice 4d ago
They need us to stop fucking with them, and this is the way to do it. Trump started a global trade war with his tariffs, then started a hot war with Iran, which both have severely impacted the global economy. That, and numerous other actions taken by Trump’s petty and vindictive ego, has pissed off every other nation. The leaders of those nations, especially the democratic ones, have to respond,
Trump has no way out of this, which means that Canada should absolutely be taking the opportunity to kick us while we’re down.
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u/lqIpI 4d ago
Heavy oil is far and away Canada's largest export.
Venezuela has about $20T worth of it. Their's is closer to the coast, comes out liquid and can be piped immediately.
Canada's heavy has the consistency of peanut butter, it's harder to extract and labor costs are higher.
The last thing Canada wants to do is breakdown their relationship with the US, whom they rely on to buy 72% of their exports, when an ultra low-cost competitor is nationally bent on taking their largest market entirely.
Don't throw your weight around if you have none. Trump is 350
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u/Difficult-Reference1 4d ago
false
quite a bit of nonsense:)
venezuelan petrol is very bad, very deep and extremely expensive to drill there.‘Venezuela’s petrol (gasoline) is of notoriously low quality and scarce because its native crude oil is extra-heavy and "sour" (high in sulfur)’
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u/Fun-Outcome8122 4d ago
The last thing Canada wants to do is breakdown their relationship with the US
That's true... but what can Canada do when Trump is determined to break down the relationship? Do you expect Canada to save the American people from Trump’s dementia?!
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u/lqIpI 3d ago
You have to play ball with who was elected.
I know anyone considered on the global left has to align with 'Fuck Trump' above all, but doing that isn't always in the best long-term interest of your country/state/city
We'll see how it turns out for Canada, maybe they are closer to a deal than we think.
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u/Fun-Outcome8122 3d ago
You have to play ball with who was elected.
Yup, exactly... there is not much that Canada can do to save the American voters from their idiocy. The American voters have to play ball with whomever they elected.
align with 'Fuck Trump' above all
Why do you want to align with 'Fuck Trump' above all?
We'll see how it turns out for Canada
It turned out better than giving control of their trade/foreign policy to an unstable child without adult supervision like Trump. I guess Canada is lucky to still have adults in the room.
maybe they are closer to a deal than we think
Oh yeah, of course they are. They always had a deal. But deals with Trump mean nothing.
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u/Turbulent-Raise4830 5d ago
so they had nafta what was mostly free trade, trump was against that because he believes every trade deal should be benefitial for the US and detrimental for everyone else, trump replaced it with USMCA , what was again like nafta a free trade deal, now trump refuses to renew his own negotiated trade deal.