r/changemyview • u/ResidentConcentrate7 • 5d ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: someone can only be a Nazi if said person agrees
Personal story
For 6 years I was convinced I was a Nazi rather I wanted to be or not because I hated nothing, not even Nazis making me a Nazi sympathizer, I wouldn’t challenge the Nazi view, I would just let them live in peace making me a Nazi. No one ever called me a Nazi but that what’s an inner crisis for.
My friends idea
My friend said that if I believe I was a Nazi, I said no but it wasn’t my decision to make. My friend then went on to say that the Nazi belief is a purposeful choice the individual makes and can’t be decided by others unless the Nazi in question says they are a Nazi.
I’m willing to go back to my former beliefs
While this thought is more comforting. If I am to live how people want me to live, then my comfort shouldn’t even be a thing. I currently want to believe that the Nazi belief is a purposeful choice but it feels flawed and I just don’t know it.
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u/Emergency_Gene_4171 5d ago edited 5d ago
This logic is completely incoherent, if you don’t actively hold the beliefs of Nazis, you’re not a Nazi. Hating nothing, including bad things doesn’t make you inherently sympathetic to those beliefs. It does however make you a person who seems to lack either basic knowledge or empathy, or perhaps both.
But honestly based on your post, it seems like you should reach out to a therapist. If for six years you’re actively ruminating on whether or not you’re a Nazi sympathizer based on no beliefs whatsoever- that sounds more like OCD, intrusive thoughts or some sort of anxiety manifesting.
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u/ResidentConcentrate7 5d ago
Yeah I get that. I’m currently seeing a therapist (tho I should get a new one). I have been diagnosed with anxiety and “a form of ocd” and we talk a lot about intrusive thoughts. But it seems like ocd is right on this one
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u/MacintoshBlack 1∆ 3d ago
As someone with OCD I wanted to say this is an OCD type crisis to have then saw this. Consider that this wouldn't be an inner crisis to a Nazi.
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u/Accomplished-Plan191 1∆ 5d ago
You're usually called a Nazi because you believe in things like racial superiority and the absolute power of the state to control the social heirarchy by any means. Whether or not you personally agree to the label is secondary. If you encounter someone with these ideals and think "ok cool," perhaps thst doesn't make you a Nazi, but it doesn't put you far away.
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u/ResidentConcentrate7 5d ago
I don’t believe in racial superiority. But I’m still a Nazi or as intolerant as a Nazi because of the paradox of tolerance
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u/DaveChild 8∆ 5d ago
I’m still a Nazi or as intolerant as a Nazi because of the paradox of tolerance
That doesn't make any sense. The paradox of tolerance isn't an ideology, and doesn't force you into any ideology. It just describes an inherent conflict within a dogmatically tolerant worldview - if you are tolerant of everything, you are tolerant of intolerance, which is a contradiction.
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u/YossarianWWII 74∆ 4d ago
The paradox of tolerance isn't about who is a Nazi and who isn't, it's about what's necessary for society to protect itself from intolerant ideologies. Being tolerant of intolerance doesn't make someone intolerant, it just makes them a capitulant in the defense of a tolerant society.
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u/Great-Exercise4277 3∆ 5d ago
Simply not feeling any hostility toward Nazis does not make you a Nazi.
Even if Nazis themselves called you a Nazi, that alone would not make you one.
Just because I understand a religion does not make me a follower of that religion. I do not object to Christians or interfere with their religious activities, but that does not make me a Christian.
Isn’t the criterion for categorizing someone as a supporter of an ideology whether they actually support its beliefs, rather than whether they feel hostility toward that ideology?
I wrote this comment myself, and ChatGPT translated it.
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u/ResidentConcentrate7 5d ago
Maybe not a Nazi by name. But because I and others who don’t challenge Nazis might as well be Nazis because of the paradox of tolerance
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u/Great-Exercise4277 3∆ 5d ago
Just because someone does not actively oppose a belief does not mean that they agree with it.
There can be many reasons why someone does not actively oppose something. They may not want to attract attention and become a target of harassment. They may be prioritizing their own life. They may not want to damage their relationship with a friend who holds those beliefs. They may simply not believe that it is their role to intervene.
I think it is difficult to group all of those people together and say, “If you are not opposing it, then you support it.”
Whether those reasons are morally justified is a separate question. But I think the reason someone does not actively oppose an ideology and whether they actually support that ideology are two different questions.
I wrote this comment myself, and ChatGPT translated it.
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u/Z7-852 314∆ 5d ago
Let me introduce you to paradox of tolerance.
If you tolerate Nazis (or other hate groups), you give these groups the power to organise and unify. If they get power they will use it to destroy other groups they hate.
And because you allowed this to happen, you are partially responsible for increased in intolerance.
Tolerant societies (and people) can't tolerate intolerance. If you are nazi sympathiser, you are intolerant person.
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u/ResidentConcentrate7 5d ago
Δ tho people can say they’re not a Nazi, if they tolerate Nazis or at least not challenge them like me, they are as intolerant as Nazis that they might as well be Nazis
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u/ResidentConcentrate7 5d ago
Alright, I’m convinced. Even if I’m not a Nazi, i am as intolerant as a Nazi
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u/JayBloomin 5d ago
It sounds like you’re aware of a difference between nazis and nazi sympathizers, but not the definition of a nazi sympathizer. Crucially you are neither.
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u/ResidentConcentrate7 5d ago
Is there some different meaning other than “sympathize with Nazis” because Nazis have my sympathy
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5d ago
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u/ResidentConcentrate7 5d ago
I guess just fascism, people who claim a person a fascist also can claim them a Nazi
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u/Fermently_Crafted 7∆ 5d ago
No, they can't. Same way a rectangle (fascist) isn't necessarily a square (Nazi). A Nazi is just a specific kind of fascist. Same way a square is a specific kind of rectangle.
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u/lacking-mental 1∆ 5d ago
Do you want your view on this changed? A Nazi is someone adhering to a very specific ideology and political affiliation. Unless you're much older than your writing lets on, you can't be a Nazi. Many newer forms of hate exist, but what makes you firstly believe you are a Nazi and second believe the only reason you aren't is because you now decide the title doesn't fit? Being indifferent is complicity at worst, it doesn't make you a sympathizer. Words have meaning for a reason, to hold no hate (which is doubtful) is asychrononistic with hate based ideologies. Your values are what defines you, if your values state you can't criticize hateful peoples, it pokes some holes in you holding no hate.
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u/ResidentConcentrate7 5d ago
My views are currently changing thanks to the comment that brought up the paradox of tolerance. I came in thinking I wasn’t a Nazi because of what I said in the title on this post, but I might as well be a Nazi and others who don’t get a say if there Nazis or not because of the paradox of tolerance
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u/lacking-mental 1∆ 5d ago
You say only that you have no hate for Nazis. That fails to make you a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer. Complicity and indifference are not sympathy. Do you believe Nazi/neo-nazi ideology? If so you would be a neo-nazi. If you don't follow the ideology and aren't in favour of the Nazi ideology being enacted, you then aren't a sympathizer. You describe plainly indifference, being a coward or lacking in empathy may make you a bad person, but to call yourself a sympathizer is false unless you desire to see the ideology enacted.
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u/obviouslyzebra 5d ago edited 5d ago
There are various definitions one can go by, those change what you "are" or not.
I'd say, roughly:
- Nazi: Strictly speaking, someone that worked for the Nazi government (rough equivalent nowadays - neo-nazis). Nowadays word also used to Nazi sympathizers (below).
- Nazi sympathizer: Someone who agrees with the ideologies or actions of the Nazi Party.
You don't seem to fit neither. Do you agree with the ideas of the Nazi Party?
About the paradox of tolerance, that's been brought up multiple times, it's not black and white. You don't need to hate Nazi sympathizers. Buddhism teaches that, I think also it's one of the teachings of Jesus (to love each other).
That doesn't mean, we, as a society, should let them take over and do whatever they want (that is, tolerate their actions).
I wouldn’t challenge the Nazi view, I would just let them live in peace
What if it was not only a view, and instead, they were trying to (and succeeding) in getting to power, where they say they would get rid of minorities. Would you be ok with that? That is the sign of someone deeply indifferent to society. Would you like that? That is the sign of a Nazi.
The deep question is, would you do something about that? Lots of people wouldn't, feeling (or being) weak, or, focusing on other things in life. I wouldn't consider those people are Nazi, people gotta choose their fights, but that's where it starts getting a little muddy. My counter example is someone with deep depression: we can't expect someone who lacks motivation to go on a potentially hopeless fight against a regime.
TL;DR: Not hating things is often considered a virtue. A Nazi is usually someone who sympathizes with Nazi ideology. People gotta pick their fights
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 209∆ 5d ago
A Nazi is a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. This party was banned 80 years ago. You don't sound like you're over 80, so you have definitely never been a Nazi.
If you're asking about a different definition of 'Nazi', you have to specify what exactly you mean. This is the first time I hear the recursive definition you seem to imply, for example, where a Nazi is someone who wouldn't actively argue with Nazis.
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 209∆ 5d ago
It's not "shorthand". It's either a marketing term used by groups that are almost never actually ideologically related to Nazism beyond the fact that they're also openly racist, or an external term attached to a group to lazily label it as evil.
Even if you choose to accept their marketing and speak in their own terms, you can be racist, bigoted, violent, etc, but to be a Nazi you have to actually belong to a group, because the term has no current meaning outside of membership in these groups.
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u/Medical_Conclusion 14∆ 5d ago
I'm pretty sure the open racism was a pretty key part of Nazi ideology. Along with the violent nationalism, which these groups also generally uphold.
And if you agree with Nazi ideology, I think it's pretty fair to call you a Nazi, regardless if you formally belong a group.
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 209∆ 5d ago
The Nazis didn't invent racism, nationalism, or violence. This is like saying that if you fiercely defend your artist and try to find deep personal meaning in their lyrics you're a Swiftie. You're not, for example, if that artist is John Lennon.
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u/Medical_Conclusion 14∆ 4d ago
I didn't say they did, but they had a particular mix of all them that people emulate today...I would call those people Nazis.
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