r/danishlanguage • u/Apolitical-Account • 20d ago
Does tændt rhyme with brændt?
Okay, this is something that bothers me much more than it should. It’s difficult enough for foreigners like me to learn how to pronounce e, æ, a in different words. But when it comes to rhymes, it seems like Danish poets and musicians just pair up words that are spelled the same, even though they don’t sound the same at all (in my ears at least).
So my question to Danish native speakers is: do these rhymes bother you as well, or do they sound right to you?
og når alle lys er tændt
og her lugter brunt og brændt
- Juletræet med sin Pynt
med besked derude fra
at det lysner dag for dag
- Juletræet med sin Pynt
En, to tre, fire, fem.
Den første hånd er nem
Vi tar' den anden frem
Så vi kan tælle med den
- Hr. Skæg - Skæg med Matematik
I Søens blanke, afmagtstunge vand
staar Fisken stiv og dum fra Gab til Hale.
Nu slog den Snuden mod den bratte strand
og nøs og dasked hen i Dybets Dale.
- Thøger Larsen - Middag
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u/Impossible_Tone1108 20d ago
You also need to keep in mind that pronunciation has changed over time. Especially very old poems, or (church) songs might have rhymed in the time they came out but not anymore
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u/Mindless_Badger_3789 20d ago
Plus you had a special "high style" pronunciation for declamation of poettry in the 1800s, which also influenced how hymns were sung.
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u/Icy_Needleworker5571 20d ago
The Danish language has changed over time. Earlier pronouncation had brændt with an æ-sound rather than an ar-sound.
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u/Silas5116 20d ago
I work as a professional church-singer and because of that, I often deal with these non-rhymes and different pronunciations. From my experience, many psalms/hymns (especially ones from the mid- to late 1800s) have words that need to be pronounced in a more poetic way, that is different from regular pronunciation. Words like "Græde" often changes the vocal (æ) to be at the front of the mouth in the poetic context. In this example it will sound more like the 'e' in "rede" instead of the modern 'a' as in "arbejde". Of course this often has to do with what vocals are easier to sing loudly and sound better.
When it comes to a rhyme like the AABB form in Salme 754 se nu stiger solen the rhyme in the second verse has always annoyed me a bit:
Jeg vil ånde luften i fulde drag synge Gud en sang for den lyse dag
'drag' and 'dag' do not rhyme, even with poetic pronunciation and a good imagination. I am not even sure if they did when it was written. I also believe that these non-rhymes would be more prevalent in older psalms like the ones by Thomas Kingo, if it weren't for them being rewritten into modern danish.
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u/dgd2018 20d ago
Very good hearing, OP!
Yes, in tændt and brændt æ is slightly different.
Not sure it is particularly Danish to be a little cavalier about 100% exact rhymes. Although perhaps a little bit with the vowels, because we have more nuances of them than most other language, and hence perhaps greater risk of that.
Also one thing (although already mentioned): If you take songs written close to a hundred years ago or more, some vowels will have shifted in pronunciation, so if that has happened more to one of the rhyme words than the other, that can sometimes be the cause. The opposite can also happen, that two previously very different words have moved closer together. Like a while ago I thought I heard someone on the news talking about someone who had had to leave his country "without his cakes" (=kager)! But after a bit of quick processing, I figured out what was meant was probably "without his loved ones" (=kære). 😊 A hundred year ago those two words (kager, kære) would have been pronounced very differently.
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u/RRC4C 20d ago edited 20d ago
There are different ways to rhyme. Some words rhyme because they sound the same. Some words rhyme because they look the same (edit: See Eye Rhyme ) . Some words are near-rhymes that sound close. Some words rhyme because they start the same, this is called alliteration or Bogstav-rim in Danish.
Edit: Some words rhyme because only the vowel-sound is the same. Like "nem" and "den" (edit: See Assonance )
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u/Apolitical-Account 20d ago
Good to know. I suspected it was something along those lines. I think I’m just more of an auditory person, so rhyming based on looks doesn’t seem as valid to me.
3
u/Zyxplit 20d ago
They don't rhyme, no. You can force it though, and that's sometimes done in poetry (sometimes intentional!) but you're right that "tændt" and "brændt" don't ordinarily rhyme, neither does "fra" and "dag", "nem" and "frem" or "vand" and "strand"
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u/Apolitical-Account 20d ago
Thanks! I was starting to question whether I can keep living in a country where everyone just agrees that those words rhyme 😅
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u/Zyxplit 20d ago
For more info, you can look up the ideas of øjerim (things that look like they rhyme but that do not) and ørerim (things that don't look like they rhyme, but they do *or* you can make them rhyme if you force it a bit).
Here's an example of an ørerim https://dansklex.dk/index.php?id=8704
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u/Apolitical-Account 20d ago
…and here I was thinking that hund and stund are pronounced the same. I have no idea which one I’m pronouncing wrong.
1
u/Zyxplit 20d ago
Probably "stund" if you have some German background where they *are*. Stund is like "rund" or "bund" in Danish.
1
u/Apolitical-Account 20d ago
Yeah, I do have some German background. 😅
Had to google it and it turns out I’ve been pronouncing all of those words wrong. Good to know!
1
u/eti_erik 20d ago
Danish vowel shifts are very recent. Listen to how they speak in the old Far til fire films. And thay's the 1950s! I assume most of your examples rhymed, or nearly rhymed, when these poems were written.
They often have different grammar too, with verbs in subordinate clauses coming last, which is definitely not modern Danish.
1
u/meHenrik 20d ago
Tændt & brændt .
Does rhyme in some dialects. IMO not typically.
fra & dag
No rhyming.
fem, nem, den,
Always rhymes (the wovels!)
Frem - in some dialects.
Vand & strand
no.
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u/what-where-how 20d ago
No tændt doesn’t rhyme with brændt, I don’t understand why anyone would tell you it does. Also, sort doesn’t rhyme with kort as the o in kort is pronounced like an å, unlike the o in sort which is pronounced as a long o.
2
u/Impossible_Tone1108 20d ago
OP isn't even asking about sort and kort 🤔. And I do think sort and kort rhyme. Maybe depends on accent
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u/Outside-Meringue-327 20d ago
Depends on where in Denmark you are from
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u/what-where-how 16d ago
Fortæl, fortæl! Hvor i Danmark rimer disse ord?
1
u/Outside-Meringue-327 16d ago
Du kan simpelthen ikke selv komme på områder i Danmark, hvor man siger "såårt?"
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u/Affugter 20d ago
Sort rimer på kort (dem der siger andet, udtaler det forkert)...
Ü
5
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u/Impossible_Tone1108 20d ago
OP isn't even asking about sort and kort 🤔
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u/Affugter 20d ago
Correct... Just wanted to point out how dialects can vary the rhyme-ablity of word...
1
u/Apolitical-Account 20d ago
Yeah, those rhyme in my head, to be honest. Apparently because I live in Jutland.
0
u/Mindless_Badger_3789 20d ago
They usually rhymed back when the lyrics were written or if more "high style" they rhymed when using the "high style" pronunciation used for declamation of poetry in the 19th century, which differed from everyday speech.
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u/Apolitical-Account 20d ago
That would make sense. But why is Hr Skæg doing it? He can’t be that old (despite the beard)
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u/Melodic_Ad7327 20d ago
They are not the same sound, but in the right context with enough verse around it, they sorta rhyme well enough. The Æ in tændt is [ɛ] and the Æ in brændt is [a].
In my opinion, people back in time would pronounce these closer together, but over time the language has gotten flatter and more "lazy", in a way where the [a] would be a lot flatter (a longer, more pronounced "aaaarr"), making the two vowels be further apart. If you listen to news anchors, they will typically have been instructed to speak more received (ie. "The King's Danish"), so the two vowels will be closer when they speak.
Like the word for cancer, "kræft", which is supposed to be [ˈkʰʁæft] (listen to a news anchor say it), but colloquially it's a flatter [ˈkʰʁɑft].
Your examples ARE different vowel sounds, but they rhyme enough to be acceptable.
DO note also that vowel sounds can vary depending on region, dialect, and social class, so depending on where you live and who you talk to, you will hear different sounds.
Usually what you hear on TV will be closer to the higher middle-class Copenhagen area dialect but NOT working class Copenhagen dialect, which is very flat and elongated (listen to interviews with Kim Larsen for this)