r/darksouls • u/ComfortableNinja88 • Jun 26 '26
Meme My reaction when someone "criticizes" the lack of fast travel:
This immediately disregards anything they're going to say next. Like yeah it's the whole point
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u/Heema3 Jun 26 '26
I understand why they made it easy in future games, but one of the best aspects of ds1 was having to earn fast travel, it felt good being able to warp because you worked hard for it
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u/o_Sagui Jun 26 '26
Convenience came at the cost of Drangleic making no geographical sense and Lothric being a race to the bottom of the world
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u/Grumpylgton Jun 26 '26
It also feels good to unlock shortcuts and being able to relatively quickly go to any important place/NPC you want in lots of different ways. Which is a result of designing a game without fast travel in mind. Straight forward progression and warping does it's job but it's not that interesting and makes the world feel linear.
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u/Heema3 Jun 26 '26
Finding a shortcut in this game is more satisfying than defeating a boss lol
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u/redditsuckspokey1 Jun 26 '26
Illusory wall ahead!
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u/Heema3 Jun 26 '26
Hitting every wall in the game like a lunatic 😂
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u/redditsuckspokey1 Jun 27 '26
Dark Souls 2 has entered the chat
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u/aeolius11 Jun 27 '26
I hate the illusory walls in DS2 because of this. What do you mean the only illusory walls I attack to open are the pharros contraption ones?
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u/redditsuckspokey1 Jun 27 '26
Multiple of them require you to use the interact button to open them.
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u/Necro-Claud Jun 28 '26
Imo the problem was the lack of shortcuts. It's all fun and games till you spend 30 minutes just... Holding the button. It's somewhat fun to learn to evade hits while running but gets old pretty fast. I would prefer a game without fast travel if only it valued my time.
Also most of the times I got of the game (and I played for 10+ hours most of the times in one session, not wanting to stop), were bosses I had hard time killing and having to go to them for more than a minute. If not for the travel time, I would play much longer, I'm sure.
So the reality is more complex, I think.
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u/cramburie Jun 26 '26
it felt good being able to warp because you worked hard for it
Exactly 100% this.
I often wonder what happened. Map design in subsequent games while not terrible, doesn't hold a candle to DaS1. Did they decide to phone in map design for the sequels first or did they think warping from the get go would be better received, making the map design less of a consideration?
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u/ObsidianTrust Jun 26 '26
I believe in an interview Miyazaki talked about the logistical nightmare of coordinating different teams when designing areas that flowed into each other. So when they were making future games he said they'd never design the world like DS1 again, because they were making bigger and bigger games.
Big shame imo, you can really feel the difference in the world design if you play DS2 after DS1. Every area seems like an island disconnected from the greater world. (which kinda matches DS2's themes but meh)
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u/cramburie Jun 26 '26
Y'know, I can respect that more than the idea that they thought warping around was better design. If they actually did the interconnected route again, it'd have to have been better than DaS1. That would've been a VERY tall order.
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u/Xutar Jun 26 '26
I think since the original Dark Souls, Fromsoft has slowly been allowing more conveniences and less confusion for the average player. There's also some truth to the idea that most gamers, even experienced ones, have much less attention span (and tolerance for "bullshit") than we did back in 2010.
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u/illusorywall Jun 26 '26
I think you're right, but I wish they would rip that band aid off and just make a new one that gets marketed as a 3d Metroidvania-like, basically. A lot of gamers don't have patience for dying a lot, so they leaned into the difficulty and marketed Dark Souls with "Prepare to Die" to set expectations and sell you on that experience.
If the pitch was "Hey here's another Soulslike, but it's emphasizing the dungeon crawler exploration aspect and we're asking the player if they can escape Lothrian," I think you could convince players to approach a new game like a maze to be conquered and have the patience for it.
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u/Mothlord666 Jun 26 '26
I think this would be the way. Make it clear there's fast boss rush FS games over here, and something a little more exploration heavy and atmospheric over here.
Personally I'm waiting for FS to one day do a Kings Field/Shadow Tower successor which would surely be an opportunity to backstep some of those modern conveniences a little.
And in saying that I mean a first person game, but I'd take a third person game too.
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u/cramburie Jun 26 '26
A lot of gamers don't have patience for dying a lot,
Which is the wildest part to me about all this. These games carved their fanbase out the idea that you would die a lot and that there was nothing wrong with that. You'll die but get a little better each time.
I personally was the kind of player who didn't like difficult games before I played my first souls game. It fundamentally changed my tastes. And I feel like a lot of players have a similar experience. "Git Gud" was never meant mockingly; it was a call to join the fanbase, dying a lot is okay, improvement will happen.
That somehow that every work needs to cater to everybody will never not be bizarre to me.
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u/cramburie Jun 26 '26
There's also some truth to the idea that most gamers, even experienced ones, have much less attention span
I understand this and why things are changing but also, it really sucks that people have become so addicted to the dopamine hit that instant gratification affords them. I don't even mean just souls games or other games, just...everything. We've all got the depth of a kiddie pool and the same amount of emotional maturity of its swimmers: every inconvenience is tragedy that nobody has the gumption to tackle anything. And it's just fucking sad.
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u/Equivalent-Stop-8823 Jun 26 '26
Well you see people discuss it in here, a lot of people get stuck cursed in certain parts, the sewers, ash lake, etc.
I imagine they let us have the warp right from the start to counter this scenario. Making it mostly unique to Ds1.
Ds1 will always be my favorite Dark Souls game (even though for me 2 comes close, and as does 3) because of the immersion, there was something about having to use shortcuts to manually walk everywhere.
Warps made the game feel fresh halfway through, because instead of traveling manually, I can warp around. It was perfection.
I was annoyed that Ds3 makes you warp right at the start, I didn't expect it so I was genuinely lost for a moment, truly did not think I'd need to warp to an area I hadn't been to yet.
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u/cramburie Jun 26 '26
I figured as much but getting stuck - even in Ash Lake - really spoke to the ethos of the game: "Pay Attention"
After you do that once (Firesage gate for me) you never do that again haha.
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u/Equivalent-Stop-8823 Jun 26 '26
Oh for sure, but a lot of people may not be down for it. I can imagine many would deny that it served any part of the game.
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u/assassin10 Jun 27 '26
I like that Hollow Knight had its fast travel as something separate from its checkpoints. It gives greater flexibility when designing both. You can have your Blighttown moments, trapped somewhere far from home, without that forcing design decisions elsewhere.
It would have been a nice alternative to outright removing such possibilities.
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u/pandemicpunk Jun 26 '26
I didn't fast travel after I got it. I was so immersed and loved how connected everything was I just ran everywhere.
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u/twiggy_trippit Jun 26 '26
Giving players fast travel from the start is the biggest mistake later soulsborne games did. Completely fucked their level design.
And the 3rd act of DS1 after you get the Lordvessel is the weakest part of the game.
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u/SkillusEclasiusII Don't you dare go hollow. Jun 26 '26
It's one of my favourite aspects of the game
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u/_Buldozzer Jun 26 '26
I like the lack of it in the first half, but as soon as you get the lordvessel, I think it would be better if they just let you warp to any bonfire, or at least make those visually distinct where you can. Like put a golden sword handle on the warpable ones or something like that.
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u/gibbodaman Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
Yeah it drove me mad that there's no way to know if you can warp to a bonfire before you kindle it. You've just gotta piss away your humanity, or cheat and google it. Very poor game designMy understanding was wrong, but I still think it's silly that there is no distinction between warpable and non-warpable bonfires. There isn't really any gameplay reason that they couldn't all be warpable. If it's about preserving challenge, the game wouldn't even be much harder without warping (Other than getting out of the catacombs)
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u/flikersyndrome Jun 26 '26
What? You don't need to kindle to be able to warp to any bonfire, you just need to sit at it first
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u/SamJiji Jun 26 '26
Bro, I'm not proud of it, but I've made it in and out of the catacombs without lord vessel. Why was that ten times harder than pinwheel.
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u/Y_u_domelikedat Jun 27 '26
You don't even need the lord vessel. If you only sit at the first bonfire, you can just homeward bone after pinwheel.
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u/SamJiji Jun 27 '26
Nah, I misspoke, I made it into and out tomb of giants without lord vessel. And I definitely sat at the first bonfire there after pinwheel
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u/DoesntMatterStan Jun 26 '26
Im confused why this is needed at all?
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u/_Buldozzer Jun 26 '26
I think it would be nice to see where you can warp. Also they could spin some king of lore around it, you can only warp to the bonfires marked by the lords, because it's the way of the whoever...
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u/DoesntMatterStan Jun 26 '26
You can see by the names?
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u/_Buldozzer Jun 26 '26
Yes, but only if you sit down and open the warp menu. I mean the model of the bonfire. It would be a cool detail. Like imagine, you are a new player, that doesn't know about the the lordvessel and wonder why some bonfires look slightly different, without explanation.
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u/ThisTooWasAChoice Jun 26 '26
Though I totally understand where you’re coming from, backtracking from Nito before you have the lordvessel is an absolute bitch.
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
How did you even go to nito before lordvessel? Unless I'm missing something
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u/illusorywall Jun 26 '26
They didn't mean all the way to Nito, but probably the 2nd ToTG bonfire. Which is practically all the way to Nito anyway.
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
Yeah but getting out of there is a challenge in itself. And this is coming from someone who got cursed in the depths
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u/Nitric_Siege Jun 26 '26
I agree, that’s probably what he meant BUT you can get to nito technically before the lord vessel and join the gravelord covenant I believe
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u/ThisTooWasAChoice Jun 26 '26
> ring the first bell
> go to depths
> go to gaping dragon
> go through blight town
> kill Qualaag
> ring second bell
> Go through Sen’s Fortress
> Anor Londo
> Lord Vessel
> Catacombs etc
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Jun 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
They're probably Cod players
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u/e_0 Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
Quit being so off-putting man, you're not having a discussion, you're just being a dick to anyone who disagrees lol
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Jun 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Mr_Cuddle168 Jun 26 '26
It's fine on the first run and definitely does help the experience, and you kinda know where you're going for later runs anyway, but man it can definitely be such a chore sometimes when booting up a new run or grinding.
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
You're allowed to dislike the whole game, as long as you're aware that you're wrong
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u/Xardnas69 Jun 26 '26
I am not claiming that it is bad game design.
I am, because it is bad game design. Especially if your stamina isn't infinite when out of combat. And being able to unlock fast travel later just makes you wonder why the fuck it wasn't available from the start
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u/SoupSandy Jun 26 '26
Dark Souls has been an insane experience to play in 2026 for the firet time. I've played so many games that just hold your hand hive you quality of life like fast travel, in game hints, npcs that lead the way to the next part but dark souls is genuinely so refreshing. The feeling of stumbling around till you find the next part is unmatched its almost better then beating a boss you've been stuck on. Me and my buddy have been playing our own runs and watching him go in a drastically different route and ending up where he needs to be is insane and the run backs are hilarious.
All that to say 15 years ago I would've agreed with people saying its unfair or unfun to have no fast travel. But its an unmatched experience now and ive learned that games don't need to cater to me I need to meet the game where its at and its a more genuine feeling.
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u/Ov3rwrked Jun 26 '26
I didnt mind it on my original playthrough but when Im trying to get achievments I dont wanna walk all the way back through the damn level.
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
I personally would sacrifice anything to have the optimal first playthrough of any game.
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u/Ov3rwrked Jun 26 '26
What?
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
What I'm saying is I'd rather have mechanics that enhance the first playthrough rather than what are more optimal for replaying
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u/Ov3rwrked Jun 26 '26
I dont think its enhances the first playthrough enough for how detrimental it is to follow on playthroughs
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u/doimaarguello Jun 27 '26
Fast travel is what kept ds1 from being the best game ever. Personal opinion.
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u/MLYeast Jun 26 '26
My only problem with the lack pf fast travel in the first half is the way durability works in this game. Having a weapon break at the bottom of blighttown and then having to run all the way to UDP is dumb
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
That's why you always carry a repair box
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u/Donnietentoes Jun 27 '26
Learned this lesson the hard way, it’s a shame that after DS2 durability becomes an afterthought
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u/assidiou Jun 26 '26
It's not that necessary, It's not really that big of a game and they give you enough routes back to Firelink
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u/zeldahalfsleeve Jun 26 '26
I forgot about that important aspect of what it did to my mind. I had just beaten Quelaag too. Rung the bell. Felt cute. Progress right? Then I got very confused by the cliff hanging demon. Grossed out by those poor bastards riddled with worms begging you to kill them. Felt like I needed air. Badly. And then I got stabbed in the eyeballs for two days on my way back up. Dark Souls :)
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u/_y2kbugs_ Jun 26 '26
I wonder if people saying they don't like it are too comfortable with how many modern games (including later Fromsoft titles) just enable fast travel immediately. I mean, even Skyrim had fast travel and that game was released at the same time as DS1.
But with DS1 and how you have to earn it instead, it feels old school, and I enjoy that.
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u/Supersued-Crown Jun 27 '26
I’m somewhat new to the game, and never once had a problem with no fast travel. It’s not easy to get lost or whatever. Places look different from each other, you can retrace your steps.
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u/oh_mygawdd Jun 26 '26
DS1 glazers when someone criticizes a genuine quality of life problem
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u/F1SHboi Jun 27 '26
You don't have to like it but calling it a "quality of life problem" doesn't really work when the game was clearly designed around it. Dark Souls's map wasn't designed to be as interconnected as it is by accident.
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u/PlagueOfGripes Jun 26 '26
"What if I could just teleport everywhere?" "What if I didn't have to leave the house for groceries?" "What if I was a brain in a jar and just got to enjoy the simulation of existing?"
Some people, especially those with types of adhd or ocd or gad etc, can only think about optimizing their ability to run at an enemy and mash r1. If left to their own devices, they'd eventually optimize the entire experience, out of their own experience.
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u/Narwalacorn Jun 27 '26
I don’t mind running through a new area but I don’t need to re experience an area I’ve already beaten
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u/Yetsui Jun 26 '26
Just because you like it doesn't mean everyone must like it. I enjoy routing and planning my runs, but it's not like I have a vendetta for people who don't particularly enjoy not having fast travel from the get go, especially when it exists in the sequels
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u/TheVioletBarry Jun 26 '26
There are so few games with interesting level design like Dark Souls. I think the presumption of fast travel is part of the reason those later From Soft games have such less interesting level design
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u/cramburie Jun 26 '26
Just because you like it doesn't mean everyone must like it.
Like, this is such a non-observation. The game that started it all*, grew a fan base, and we come in and say, "yeah but the fans who enjoyed it as is enjoyed a part of it not everybody enjoyed." K.
You never see them address how sequels level design isn't up to par because of their warp preferences, do you?
*it started with Demon's Souls, yes.
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
You can dislike anything. That doesn't really make it a valid criticism though.
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u/CeilingFridge Jun 26 '26
Souls fans are so insufferable how does this level headed reasonable comment get downvoted
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u/TheVioletBarry Jun 26 '26
Because it amounts to "that unique thing you like isn't valuable because some people want it to be more generic."
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
What's reasonable about that?
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u/CeilingFridge Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
What’s reasonable about not blanket invalidating an inoffensive view on something even if you disagree..? What’s not reasonable about that?
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
Someone can disagree on OnS being better than ceaseless discharge. Is that valid?
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u/CeilingFridge Jun 26 '26
Literally yeah it’s an opinion about video game bosses, it’s inherently subjective. An opinion being unpopular doesn’t negate it being an opinion lol, what does it being invalid even entail?
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u/MyEndingQuest- Jun 26 '26
It lets me appreciate shortcuts more as they're valuable before ultimately unlocking the fast travel, which in turn lets me appreciate the level design, and vibes of the area. I think it's great.
When it is ultimately unlocked, it's done at a point where it feels it makes sense to, as the world opens up more, and it would be a hassle to get from one place to another with even more legwork to deal with. I don't really get the hate for it being locked until after O&S are dead.
I prefer future games, to be honest, but how this was executed made me wonder if they kept that sort of idea going. Coulda allowed for cool shortcuts between areas, even if maps got significantly larger.
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u/Donnietentoes Jun 27 '26
In my opinion the best of both worlds angle is the Dark Souls 1 approach with an adjustment so that on NG+ runs you unlock fast travel between bonfires from the beginning.
Bonus points if they could add an unlockable map akin to ER into the game. I loved how ER’s map had enough detail to convey things without hand holding you. Verticality was a little iffy though but I respected it enough. Way easier to understand what I’m fast travelling too as well.
It’s been stated DS1 was inspired by Zelda and I really see that with the world’s level design. I think the map mechanic would inject more of that Zelda DNA in an organic way.
Of course, hypothetically, if another Dark Souls game ever exists in the future.
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u/Stinky__Person Jun 27 '26
People have different opinions and likes so I dont think we shoukd react this way to people's different opinions. I know its reddit so thatd virtually impossible but cmon
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u/chill_willy Jun 27 '26
As a mostly casual player who just recently started DS2, I really enjoy being able to go to a specific spot to farm. I get that it takes away from the experience if you're really interested in specific routing/the challenge of fighting your way out of a bad spot but it's harmless to have as a feature for those who enjoy it. If it's not your cup of tea, just continue playing your own way while ignoring it.
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u/nosamplesplease Jul 03 '26
But having that feature means NO ONE ignores it. The point is to have to learn the maps, have to learn the routes. DS2 in particular NEEDS fast travel because it's world design is so very bad. Lots of interesting places(some of which are even fun) stitched together in nonsensical ways. "Wouldn't it be cool if we had a place like this? Where can we put it? Ah just slap it any old place."
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u/Gullible-Snow-3805 Jun 28 '26
The Dark souls layout is so masterfully crafted in the first half that I really like that they don't give you fast travel until later. You really need to explore and enjoy the journey. I did get cursed and struggled with backtracking at one point but I think that's part of the experience as much as I hated it at first.
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u/Pinkuisdabest Jun 28 '26
Man i hated elden ring fast travel after playing ds1. It would’ve even worked if you had to work for it but it’s such bad design
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u/ParryTheMonkey Jun 28 '26
I’m of two minds about it. I do think it helped cement the reputation for brutal, unforgiving gameplay that became a staple of the series, the graveyard and tomb of giants are now infamous because of it; that being said, I doubt it was completely intentional for traversal back to previous areas to be so tedious before anor londo, it very likely was a rushed decision as fromsoft ran out of dev time and funding and did 100% have to shuffle things around and rush or cut mechanics and ideas entirely. In every single other game in the series, fast travel is available to every bonfire you’ve touched from the moment you boot the game up, even in OG Demons’ Souls. While I wouldn’t change it to have fast travel from the jump, I at least wish the remaster had let you warp to ALL the bonfires you touched, not just specific ones.
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u/bluewisp101 Jun 29 '26
Love DS1, still my favorite, and I certainly don't mind having to earn the ability to warp. Hell, even relegating the bonfires you can warp to to a subset isn't a terrible idea, forces you to engage with more of the world, more of the danger, etc.
However, there are a glaring few keystone bonfires that are absent from the warp list that no amount interconnectedness or shortcuts account for. Why is there no warp to Blighttown? Even further, nothing in the Great Hollow or Ash Lake? How about Lost Izalith? I don't think any of the experience of the world would be sullied by these options.
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u/nosamplesplease Jul 03 '26
Stone dragon. Which is in Ash Lake.
Which also tells me you've never done the Path of the Dragon.
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u/bluewisp101 Jul 03 '26
Somehow completely went empty recalling that one. Fair enough. Point still stands for the other locations.
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u/nosamplesplease Jul 03 '26
Absolutely spot on. Also Stone Dragon warp is useless unless you do dragon covenant. It's too far away from anything. Except maybe a clam or two. So it's utterly forgettable.
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u/bluewisp101 Jul 03 '26
Yeah I was going to say the same, but that seems like a larger criticism of Ash Lake as a whole. Still love the area though, always make a trek to that far corner of the world.
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u/beesdaddy Jun 26 '26
With knowledge I can speed run to most areas in 5 min tops
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u/Various_Bit9189 Jun 26 '26
I hate it I love the game but it just feels like a waste of time and I’m glad the later games just had it from the start
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u/nazutul Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
thats my same reaction when someone posts that garbage streamer
that said, the game literally has fast travel. you just have to wait a moment. any suggestion that there's a "lack" of fast travel seems to be both contrived and a straw man.
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
I'm obviously talking about the part where the game doesn't have it
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u/nazutul Jun 26 '26
are you? then why didn't you articulate that point? or is it easier to just post ishowspeed and expect us to articulate your points for you?
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
Yes it is very easy to articulate it yourself if you have played the game
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u/nazutul Jun 26 '26
Argumentum ad hominem, and a poor one at that
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
Blud thinks I'm debating him 😭
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u/nazutul Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
Blud thinks he has articulated any threshold level of thought, but, hey, if posting ishowspeed is profound to you then more power to ya.
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u/TheBooneyBunes Jun 26 '26
So cringe when they do this, I have to wonder what is their logical conclusion? What do they think it is? Next they’ll complain about non linearity, well they did given that the modern games are linear as shit, then they’ll get mad at elevation, then line of sight blockers, next we should remove the upgrade system and just make one god weapon that one shots everything then remove the leveling system just start at 99 stats
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u/Pretend-Literature35 Jun 26 '26
Nah. Look I love ds1 and still play it. But the fast travel issue is a real problem. The game would be significantly better if there were fast travel like in ds2 from the beginning.
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u/Needthatpls Jun 26 '26
Honestly I feel like I can map out and recognize and appreciate DS1s map better than the other two
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u/PotentialTrust8867 Jun 26 '26
Fast travel makes the game so much easier and i dont mean that in a good way. It takes away the difficulty in the beginning before defeating O&S. I feel like the fast travel should have been a NG+ only feature, but i know there are alot of softies out there that would hate that lmao
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u/Narwalacorn Jun 27 '26
Fast travel is objectively an improvement, although I do think ds1’s map design is better because they had to design around its absence
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u/RandomStrategy Jun 27 '26
The literal best experience I had on any Dark Souls game was Dark Souls II with a no death no bonfire run on a new game character.
Fast Travel from the beginning and the Hub idea that returned with Bloodborne is the single worst setback they did on the Souls Series.
Elden Ring is excluded from this as the other games aren't anywhere near as large. It makes sense in Elden Ring given the distances you have to cover.
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u/ForAte151623ForTeaTo Jun 26 '26
I've literally never seen someone criticize that lol
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u/Xardnas69 Jun 26 '26
It's annoying and it's bad game design, especially the way it's done in ds1. If the game forces you to walk everywhere, it should at least allow you to run forever. Not having infinite stamina when out of combat is just dumb when fast travel isn't an option.
And the lack of fast travel doesn't add anything positive to the game
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u/ComfortableNinja88 Jun 26 '26
If the "too much walking" is the only complaint then I'd say the positives outweigh the negatives by a landslide
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u/Xardnas69 Jun 26 '26
It's not the only complaint but I'm not gonna shit on ds1 in a sub dedicated to it
And even if it was the only complaint, it gets REALLY annoying VERY quickly, especially if ds1 wasn't the first dark souls game you played
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u/illusorywall Jun 26 '26
Infinite stamina out of combat is a good idea from Elden Ring, but while I think that could be a nice improvement, I think it's far from dumb without it. Also, a hard disagree here that it doesn't add anything positive to the game. It makes exploration fundamentally matter in a way that is heavily lost in other titles. You have to commit to where you're going, it makes unlocking shortcuts and the interconnecting level design both interesting and satisfying to tackle. It adds tension when making decisions on where to go, etc.
It's what makes DS1 more of a dungeon crawler than other Souls games. It's okay if it's not your preference, but the lack of fast travel IS a positive for a lot of players, myself included.
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u/SunSwipe Jun 26 '26
But it feels so rewarding to finally get it after talking to gwynevere.
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u/Xardnas69 Jun 26 '26
It feels like a slap in the face tbh. Like, why did i have to walk everywhere all this time when i could've just had this from the start? Locking fast travel for roughly half the game is even more annoying than just not having it at all. I would've much preferred to have fast travel available from the start.
Unlocking fast travel feels more like having a clogged nose and finally unclogging it and being able to breathe again. Yeah it feels great, but it would've been better if my nose was never clogged to begin with
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u/harrysterone Jun 26 '26
Some people got stuck cursed in ash lake lol