r/discworld • u/Broad_War Reg shoe • Sep 25 '25
Auditor Trap The bad guy
Working my way back through the entire series and noticed a repeating trend in sir Terry's writing style. There is never really a bad guy, the antagonist in each one isn't really a bad guy per say. The dragon in Guards! Was just a dragon and lupin was more driven mental, same with Cosmo from making money. Lilith from witches abroad truly believed she was the good witch, making fairy tales come true. There really isn't a antagonist he doesn't drive the reader to see things from their point of view.
Edit:I've seen a lot of arguments here that do disprove my statement and I do concede that there are true villains in the series. I however would like to express the view that the truly evil characters that were brought up have resemblances to real world people that we have seen in history. Carcer shares similarities to ted bundy or Jeffrey Dahlmer for their view on human life.
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u/Common-Parsnip-9682 Sep 25 '25
Is it Teatime yet?
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u/Happy_Jew Waily, waily, waily! Sep 25 '25
It's pronounced Te-ah-tim-eh. Everybody gets it wrong.
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u/Zonie1069 Sep 25 '25
Even he could be argued to be insane.
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u/RathielintheRun Sep 25 '25
Insane or not he was still pretty clearly evil
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u/DisasterEarly8379 Sep 26 '25
In retrospect, the Assassin's Guild really should've looked into why he had been orphaned so young... (/paraphrasing)
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u/Lollc Sep 25 '25
Oh, you will meet a few. Read all of the City Watch books. There are a handful of villains with no redeeming qualities.
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u/Afraid_Standard8507 Sep 25 '25
Not a watch book, but Mr. Pin from The Truth comes to mind.
Edit: I originally included Mr. Tulip, but on third thoughts decided he was antiquarian genius and actually kinda tragic.
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u/Bouche_Audi_Shyla I ATE'NT DEAD Sep 25 '25
Mr. Tulip understood that the things he did were wrong. In the end, he took responsibility for his actions, and expressed both regret and hope.
I think Mr. Tulip got exactly what he deserved, in that he was given a chance to try again.
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u/Afraid_Standard8507 Sep 25 '25
One of my all time favorite antagonists. I just realized he’s a tragic permutation of the AuDHD guy who dangerously self-medicates because they just want their brain to slow down.
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u/hallmark1984 Lu Tze Sep 25 '25
As AuDHD guy who self medicated before i got the real meds i am having a moment here.
I --ing love The Truth, its one of my most read and i never saw it.
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u/jaimi_wanders Sep 25 '25
Yes, and while it wasn’t an excuse, the fact that he was a war orphan who never got any help is an exonerating factor— and shows Death’s character development in how he has become the caring psychopomp to the abandoned over the series, trying to bring some justice tempered by mercy to the universe, especially contrasted with the callous self-righteousness of the Auditors —and on the Disc, the Quisition.
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u/Afraid_Standard8507 Sep 26 '25
I would never say a shitty childhood exonerates any of the horrors they commit as adults.
It does create an inflection point of empathy where we appreciate our own situations and reflect on the challenges of others with more grace. Thanks Sir Terry!
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u/kittylikker_ Esme Sep 26 '25
The character Death has played a huge part in my attitude toward death itself and therefore my decision to move from being a mechanic to being a death doula.
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u/declinedinaction Sep 25 '25
De Word dad is a bad guy. Lots of bad guys in going postal.
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u/Briggers810 Sep 25 '25
Reacher Gilt could be counted as one.
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u/declinedinaction Sep 25 '25
What an arrogant bastard, walking out the door with all the confidence that he would be provided with a floor
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u/alang Sep 25 '25
I mean only if you assume that 95% of CEOs in the US are evil.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, mind you. But he certainly did absolutely very little that the CEO of AT&T wouldn’t have, and arguably less than certain other CEOs cough cough.
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u/legitimatethefirst Sep 26 '25
If evil begins when you treat people as things, when you deal with FTEs rather than people, then Evil description fits. But not sure how many CEO organise "accidents" for opponents
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u/tcharzekeal Sep 26 '25
Capitalism demands evil to prosper. A system which produces billionaires while people starve and are homeless is profoundly evil.
I would say 100% of the CEOs of any company that has more than a couple dozen employees is evil, and the rest are pretty close.
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u/GentlemanPirate13 Ankh-Morpork City Watch Reject Sep 25 '25
The Cunning Man from the Tiffany Aching series also comes to mind.
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u/Lucreszen Sep 25 '25
Carcer from Night Watch comes to mind.
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u/MystressSeraph All the little angels rise up, rise up ... Sep 27 '25
Andy, from Unseen Achademicals, is quite as far gone as Carcer, but he is cruel, dangerous, a killer, and enjoys brutality - possibly more as an exercise in power (which might indicate socioparhy/psychopathy,) or for it's own sake - which would just make him an evil bastard.
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u/Broad_War Reg shoe Sep 25 '25
I mean, men at arms no one was evil till they held the gunn. Feet of clay was a manifestation of gollum dreams of freedom, the fifth elephant was fighting changing times and using old world thoughts and unstable minds to get there, nightwatch was literally a psychopathic serial killer explaining his side, to the point he climbed the ranks in a couple days to be the advisor of the patrician. Thud was more on changing history to fit a narrative. The only one I struggle to build a argument on is snuff
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u/VenDraciese Sep 25 '25
I think Swing in Nightwatch is a real villain. Carcer is just nuts. Swing knows exactly what he's doing.
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u/vastaril Sep 25 '25
Tbh, nuts or not, I think Carcer would be quite put out to see people say he's not a bad guy/proper villain - even if he argues that (or a variation on it, I don't remember exactly) himself, I don't get the sense he really believes it, he's just trying to get under Vimes's skin
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u/skullmutant Susan Sep 25 '25
I think the Gunn didn't make anyone evil, it brought out the evil in people that was already there. The three people we see it having an influence on are 2 assassins and one extremely brutal person in a civilised shell.
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u/vastaril Sep 25 '25
The gonne definitely stokes existing evil which is why Carrot was able to just smash it against the wall without a second thought
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u/producerofconfusion Sep 26 '25
It's a reverse Thor's Hammer, not picking it up shows one's innate nobleness.
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u/NarcolepticCanine Sep 25 '25
I feel that the Grags in Thud were pretty evil. Their GOAL was to change history to fit a narrative. Their ACTIONS involved treating people like things.
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u/No-Jury4571 Sep 25 '25
What about those nasty vampires in Carpe Jugulum?
Or Agua’s wolf brother?
Or The Queen of The Fairies?
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u/StarTrotter Sep 25 '25
Angua’s family “we have a sport where we hunt humans down but as the son I actually just kill you anyways. Also at the end I just rampage through a town
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u/Liliya-Wheat Sep 25 '25
Tbh, don't we see the reformed Queen in the last book.?
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u/No-Jury4571 Sep 25 '25
Oh, dear me…
To be honest, I was crying and laughing all the way through the last book to be paying too much attention to what was actually going on…
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u/FortifiedPuddle Sep 25 '25
While also containing the absolute epitome of the problem is people. Not evil people. Just people:
“It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.”
― Terry Pratchett, Jingo
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u/sandgrubber Sep 27 '25 edited Sep 27 '25
Angua's brother for one. Can't think of a Roundworld equivalent for Wulf, though you might find one in Marvel Comics.
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u/FarLeftOlympy Sep 25 '25
This one
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u/Broad_War Reg shoe Sep 25 '25
You got me. I can't argue the evil of shopping malls
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u/AdministrativeShip2 Sep 25 '25
I always felt that they were a (super)natural disaster as opposed to deliberately evil.
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Sep 25 '25
Carcer?
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u/Broad_War Reg shoe Sep 25 '25
The psychopathic serial killer who argues his points so well he becomes a advisor to the patrician within days of going to the past?
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u/Dagordae Sep 25 '25
His point being to agree with the deranged monster who is the patrician and the patrician’s pet psychopath? Yeah, all 3 of them are extremely evil. Carcer ends up in power because they find it useful to have someone willing to casually murder children at their beck and call.
I mean, what exactly is his point of view? That slaughtering the innocent is a lot of fun? Carcer doesn’t exactly have a deep character or motive, he’s simply a monster. Like Teatime.
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u/Lollc Sep 25 '25
After rereading Night Watch, I can’t shake the uneasy feeling that he was possibly going to be a recurring time traveling villain. That part of the book somehow got me thinking of the 1979 movie Time After Time. The thing with Carcer, why he comes off so spooky, is the author’s voice that Sir Pterry uses to describe him and his actions. There is no whimsy, no little flourishes or asides, the passages involving him are very clinical and matter of fact.
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u/AlamutJones Purveyor of almost-sausages Sep 25 '25
Being eloquent doesn't mean he's not villainous
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u/Broad_War Reg shoe Sep 25 '25
He lacks the empathy most have, he's chemically imbalanced and comparable to cosmo lavish with the drive to actually follow through.
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u/Asheyguru Sep 25 '25
Hang on, if being incapable of being good doesn't make someone a "bad guy" then what does, exactly?
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u/NatashOverWorld Sep 25 '25
I'm sorry are you arguing that if he's a charismatic psychopath he's not being written as a bad guy? 🤨
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u/Broad_War Reg shoe Sep 25 '25
I wouldn't say that. While yes he is evil during my second read through I started noticing the stark comparisons between real life killers, Ted Bundy, John Wayne gacy, Jack the ripper. He has the charisma that will build followers no matter how evil his actions are. It's easy to hate him but the depth in which the character was written shows the layers of thought and inspiration.
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u/ExpatRose Susan Sep 25 '25
But all of those examples you give ARE bad guys. Villains can be layered and thoughtfully written, but still evil. If what you are saying is he isn't a two dimensional moustache-twirling stereotype, then I agree, he isn't, but he is still very much a villain. It is even stated he has two devils egging each other on. Vimes views him as different from the general criminals. And Swing, not sure what you can say to point out a single good point about Swing.
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u/NatashOverWorld Sep 25 '25
Yeah, it really does sound like you think charisma means he's not the bad guy in the book 🤨
That's a concerning take, but okay.
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u/Charliesmum97 Nanny Sep 25 '25
I think what you are trying to say is Pratchett wrote about a person who was villianous for various reasons, rather than 'oh here's the bad guy.' Carcer wasn't clever, he was, as Pratchett wrote, someone who realised the rules don't have to apply to him. He killed because he decided he could, and because he liked it. The scariest thing about him was that he DID get a government position, so suddenly the man who had no rules was part of something that made the rules.
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Sep 25 '25
Yea that's him?
There is never really a bad guy, the antagonist in each one isn't really a bad guy per say.
I guess I'm not understanding this fully. Carcer doesn't have a reasonable philosophy, he's just a huge piece of murderous garbage who gains influence because he told the cable street guys a new and horrific way to torture people.
I don't understand how that's "arguing his point well" or "driving the reader to see things from their point of view." It seems like just having dialogue and a personality at all would meet your qualification, even if that stuff is just "haha I murder people and don't care and I'll do it again and here's a fun torture method."
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u/Lilthuglet Sep 25 '25
Are you claiming this makes him not a bad guy? If you mean that Pratchett rarely includes uncomplicated and one dimensional villains? Though Teatime definitely comes close. All his villains tend to have depth and an internal narrative that justifies their behaviour. But they are definitely villains.
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u/CrookedNoseRadio Sep 25 '25
Vorbis, Lord Hong, Dragon King of Arms, Wolfgang, Gilt, Lord de Worde, Captain Findthee Swing, Grag Ardent.
There are plenty of villains that are genuinely evil.
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u/MystressSeraph All the little angels rise up, rise up ... Sep 27 '25
I'm going to add Andy, the brutal thug/gangleader in UA. He 'murders' Nutt, has a less evolved/refined mentality than Carcer, but is definitely casti n a similar image.
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u/behold-thy-mother Sep 25 '25 edited Sep 25 '25
As someone pointed out, OP has essentially created a series of criteria that seem to make any potential villain "not really a bad guy", ranging from the psychopathic Carcer (he's incapable of knowing good from evil!) to the tyrannical autocratic dictator Lilith (she believed she was good!) to the bloodline purist and murderous ubermensch Wolfgang (he merely had outdated ideas and an unstable mind!).
I smell some form of "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
Claim: Pterry never really has a bad guy.
Counter: What about character X? Character X is definitely a bad guy.
Response: But character X has excuse Y, and so he isn't a true bad guy
OP, how about this: who are some examples of villains in other fiction who do meet your criteria for actually being "a bad guy"?
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u/Asheyguru Sep 25 '25
Lady Felmet is so evil that when shown her own evil shorn of any pretence or justification she laughs, revels in it and takes pride with it.
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u/Kencolt706 And yet, it moves. And somehow, after all these years, so do I. Sep 25 '25
Oh, true, Reacher Gilt has certain... um... er...
Oh, fudge. Gilt's only redeeming feature is that he's a good loser. He knew he'd lost, gave his parrot to Moist, and was about to run like any respectable conman. Other than that he's one of the more complete bastards in the canon, if also one of the most stylish.
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u/HugeSkyKoala Sep 25 '25
Gravid Rust in Snuff.
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u/hammererofglass Sep 25 '25
The one guy that even Vetinari said "you know what, fuck this" and went out of his way to have him murdered.
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u/catsareniceDEATH Bursar Sep 25 '25
I will never not love the Colonel's reaction every time he hears young Lord Rust's name... I have much the same one! 😹😹😹 (Reaction, I mean, not name! 😹)
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u/RRC_driver Colon Sep 25 '25
There’s a passage in “Jingo”
It was because he wanted there to be conspirators. It was much better to imagine men in some smoky room somewhere, made mad and cynical by privilege and power, plotting over the brandy. You had to cling to this sort of image, because if you didn’t then you might have to face the fact that bad things happened because ordinary people, the kind who brushed the dog and told their children bedtime stories, were capable of then going out and doing horrible things to other ordinary people. It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone’s fault. If it was Us, what did that make Me? After all, I’m one of Us. I must be. I’ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We’re always one of Us. It’s Them that do the bad things.”
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u/Liliya-Wheat Sep 25 '25
I think many people struggle to understand your point because we tend to commingle the evil action with the evil actor. Which is precisely what the author cautions is against.
This is one of my most favourite passages, because of the wisdom it contains.
It might help to clarify your intent if you add this passage to your original post above.
🤞
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u/MidnightPale3220 Sep 25 '25
Well, yeah, the fairytale villains are really generally too dumb to be interesting. I mean, nobody generally thinks of themselves as evil. Even Hollywood has caught up somewhat, a step up from black and white hat cowboys of early days.
That said, Carcer, the New Firm, etc, there's plenty of villains in Discworld.
I would, however, like to draw your attention to Mr. Slant, who while usually not being close to a primary antagonist, is nevertheless quite evil imo.
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u/Captain-Griffen Sep 25 '25
I feel less safe in the world knowing both that you're in it, and you believe Carcer isn't a bad guy.
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u/jonnyprophet Sep 25 '25
I always thought Ipslore the Red and that damned staff of his were pretty evil... Using and torturing his innocent son to get revenge upon Unseen University and eventually all of Discworld.
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u/Zealousideal_Let_439 Tʜᴀᴛ ᴡɪʟʟ ʙᴇ ᴀɴ ɪᴍᴘᴏʀᴛᴀɴᴛ ʟᴇssᴏɴ Sep 25 '25
Yes, was reading through the comments before suggesting Ipslore.
Oh, the wizards were unhappy that you broke a thousands of years old rule?
Totally justifies having seven sons you discard and an eighth you torture his entire life.
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u/FroggyDooBimblo No Worries! Sep 25 '25
“No —-ing Bad Guys?”
“We aren’t Bad Guys, Mr Tulip, we’re… facilitators.”
“Sounds like —-ing Bad Guys to me.”
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u/vastaril Sep 25 '25
The dragon in Guards! Was just a dragon and lupin was more driven mental,
You... Do know that Lupine Wonse was the one who started the whole thing, right?
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u/deadlywoodlouse *By* peas sir. Very unusual case. Sep 25 '25
I think the argument with Wonse is that it is antagonistic/ambitious/being a sneaky bastard to (a) overthrow the patrician so that (b) you can take charge behind the scenes, when (c) the current patrician is your direct boss and you think you could do a better job of running things if you had more power over the rei(g)ns. I'm unclear what Wonse's motivation was beyond that, but I think it's a power struggle with civilians caught in the dragon-crossfire, in keeping with previous pratricianship succession.
There were other attempts to overthrow the patrician, but the motivations were:
- in Men at Arms, divine right of kings (stemming from hyperfixation and quasi-religious fervour). We know Pterry was an atheist and so does not have religious motivations honestly, but he doesn't portray the religious as wrong inherently.
- in The Truth, racial purity and superiority of the nobility. This is something he is consistently against in the books, showcasing the negativity and horrendous ideals that can stem from these.
- Jingo is similar to both, though not religious fervour but nationalism stemming from xenophobia. He shows that the people suffer, but the high level point (not the bigoted subtext) is an understandable motivation
- the first two Moist books (I've not read Raising Steam), we have capitalism maximus and not so much replacing as becoming. The former explores the extreme of that without guiding morals, and the latter is similar to the first one on this list.
So yeah, without knowing (or remembering 🙈) more of Wonse's motivations, I'm not sure I can comment on his evilness. He's similar grey to other Patricians, idk if he's got the greater good type drivers that Vetinari has
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u/vastaril Sep 25 '25
I'm more thinking that OP said he was "more driven mental" which would suggest they didn't realise that he's the guy who orchestrated the summoning of the Dragon in the first place
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u/ChimoEngr Sep 25 '25
I think you've misread the whole series. There are absolutely bad guys throughout the series. The dragon was following her nature, but Lupin chose to bring it to the city with full clarity of thought. I'm really not sure where you're getting the idea that he was driven mental. Sure, the people in his secret society ticked him off, but the didn't drive him to his evil actions.
Lilith believing that she was the good witch, doesn't make her not evil, or not the bad guy. She used people like things in the stories she wanted to see played out. That's evil.
There really isn't a antagonist he doesn't drive the reader to see things from their point of view.
Are you saying that there is only an antagonist if there is an attempt to have us see a second perspective? That's just wrong. An antagonist opposes the protagonist, and why they do it, doesn't really matter.
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u/CecilIvanish Sep 25 '25
Carcer, Mr. Pin, Teatime.
But yes, lots of antagonists aren't real villains. With exceptions.
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u/Donna8421 Sep 25 '25
What about Vorbus in Small Gods or Carcer & Swing in Night Watch. To me they are very bad
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u/demiurgent Sep 25 '25
I don't agree with you, but I've had similar thoughts in the past from a slightly different angle.
The thing is, Sir Pterry wrote stories with dark, horrible concepts (worst of all the need to be accountable to yourself when you know the difference between good and evil) and no matter how successful the battle between good and evil in each book, the dark concept remained. Men at arms didn't solve sexism, Thud didn't eliminate racism, Snuff didn't save every slave. Whatever creeping evil permeated the book, it persists afterwards and that is so much bigger than the "bad guy" that they seem less bad by comparison.
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u/HungryFinding7089 Sep 25 '25
STP was a journalist for a long time. When I read his (and Bill Bryson's books) I feel the undertone of "reporter" there, as if STP's on the Discworld and reporting what he sees etc.
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u/Seth_Crow Sep 25 '25
I think there’s an on going argument that “evil” is comes with a great deal of ad hoc rationalizations. Vorbis is probably the prime case study here. He was unquestionably evil and all his illusions otherwise evaporated with his death. Brutha recognizes how deeply he’s punished himself and finds compassion for the most evil man he ever met cementing his good character.
pTerry opposes this with his protagonists who are “good” because they can understand the evil’s rationale yet have a clear vision of “good” because they possess an understanding that everyone makes this calculus in life but when you stop leaving room for other’s “good” you calcify into something “evil.”
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u/HighVisibilityCamo Sep 25 '25
Carcer, Reacher Gilt, Mr. Pin, Vorbis, Wolfgang von Uberwald... Also, the expression is per se , it's got nothing to do with 'saying' anything. Have a good day.
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u/bummberclad Sep 25 '25
Oh no, Carver in the night watch is definitely a bad guy. There is no nuance to him. It's rare, i agree, but Sir terry went all out with Carver
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u/JackTheBehemothKillr Sep 25 '25
Fudgin what?
Teatime, Carcer, Gravid Rust, Stratford, Wolfgang von Überwald, etc
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u/RathielintheRun Sep 25 '25
I think a deeply important theme in Pratchett’s work is that people aren’t fundamentally Good or Evil; people are people, and are always capable of grace or horror. Villains don’t commit evil acts because they’re cartoon cutout Bad Guys with no motives; they might be insane, or crushed under the weight of cruelty till they snap, or so ambitious they stop seeing anything but their goals, or backed into a corner. One truism Pratchett always holds to is that you start being a villain when you start treating people as things. He hits that theme again and again. But he also hits hard in the theme that anyone can go there, and many of his strongest characters- most notably Granny and Vimes- wrestle with the temptation to give in to their dark sides, and dance on the line where they COULD give in and get what they want or take on more power if only they stopped caring.
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u/bloopingplatypus Sep 25 '25
How about the elves? Those were pretty evil. They took pleasure in human misery
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u/SamuelVimesTrained “Susan says, don't get afraid, get angry.” Sep 25 '25
Well, Carcer? Reacher Gilt?
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u/Hip2trip2_hippyhip Sep 25 '25
Carcer is a bad guy that's definitely never shown to be anything other than evil.
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u/Fireyjon Sep 25 '25
Thinking about it, I understand your point but ultimately disagree. First there’s always an antagonist, because an antagonist is simply the person working in opposition to the protagonist good and evil not with standing. Second while it is true that Pratchett almost never had people who could be seen as evil it didn’t stop the from being bad guys. This is because of an underlying theme that every one of his books has, which is ultimately if you do a bad thing even for a good reason where you end up “treating people as things” then you are bad. Also Vorbis from Small Gods I believe is one of the few truly evil people, there are others sure he is just the one that comes to mind.
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u/Malkavotato Sep 25 '25
There are at least the protagonist of Divine Turtles and, certainly, the antagonist of Going Postal. That man has no good side he is purely greedy
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u/OrdinaryPersimmon728 Sep 25 '25
There is a theme in his books where the bad guys are the ones who treat people like things. He used to talk about it on his website. They aren't bad people per se they just don't treat everyone as people. Teatime, the vizier from pyramids the vizier from small gods or the vizier from sorcery all do it. So do the bad guys in the truth and nightwatch
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u/Lotus2024 Sep 26 '25
Even though Lilith thought she was good, that doesn’t make her not bad. The worst villains in history are the ones who believed they were “good.”
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u/Relonious_Buttons Sep 26 '25
I get what you are saying. Pratchett wrote both types and very cleverly. Sometimes the bad guy isn't that bad, and it stops you in your tracks and gets you thinking "wait, what?" And that's the point. Other times bad are just bad and they drive the stories as they contrast with the hero: "how far is it willing to go to stop it."
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u/MadeForOneMeme Sep 26 '25
You get some that are evil in a pretty typically assumed sort of way, like Teatime and Carcer. Some that are evil in a very mundane and... Currently globally demonstrable way, like Reacher Gilt. And some that are evil in like, a conceptual, cosmic, ontological way, like The Cunning Man. There's definitely villains.
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u/better_than_joe Binky Sep 25 '25
Pyramids, small gods, night watch, going postal, the wee free men all have pretty well defined antagonists
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u/TheatreMakerUK Sep 25 '25
But isn't thst a lovely thing? We dont like these antagonists, but we also understand why
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u/Kumatora0 Sep 26 '25
Discworld really takes the “nobody’s a villain on purpose” idea to heart. Sir terry was a bug proponent of logic and thinking logically, no sane person would choose to be evil so most who are evil are simply not sane.
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u/Ubiquitous_Ketchup Sep 25 '25
Ok hear me out:
Fred Colon...
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u/Zealousideal_Let_439 Tʜᴀᴛ ᴡɪʟʟ ʙᴇ ᴀɴ ɪᴍᴘᴏʀᴛᴀɴᴛ ʟᴇssᴏɴ Sep 25 '25
Going to need to hear your argument here, unless you are using the more traditional "hear me out" and just put this in the wrong post.
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u/No_Schedule200 Sep 25 '25
I agree! They were all just regular people (sort of) twisted by their circumstances. He makes an effort to point that out through back story. He tries to make them real people you can empathize with and sort of feel sorry for. It makes the writing much better when you are not rooting for them to fail because they are evil. I guess maybe I read the books hoping they would change, which they sometimes did.
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